How would the US enforce Feinstein's plan?

[Lex Luthier]

So gentlemen, 3 January 2013 rolls around and Senator Feinstein's gun ban is passed. What are they going to do?

1) Expect complete honest and voluntary compliance?
2) Break down the doors of those who are on some list and search the house?
3) Will we be allowed to defend our property?
4) Will we be forced to suffer an ala carte US Constitution?

I expect a few things: we will hide a lot of stuff, the federal agents will be forced to turn into nationalist jackboots or lose their jobs, a lot of us will be forced to make stands we are not prepared for, nor expected.

This is not a crazy rant, just a precautionary thought.

 

[joecil]

Well lets assume it actually clears both the house and senate. Now that is highly unlikely with even the next congress much less this one. This is especially true with the current fiscal cliff and debt limit both of which will lead to more layoffs of not only private but major cuts at the federal and local levels. So with that said even if it passed they wouldn't have enough man power to come and get them. Now that would also assume they know where and who has guns, which they don't. Most states don't keep records of gun sales at all except at a dealer in paper format. The ATF doesn't have a database to track gun sales so where do they start? Simple logic tells you it can't be done at all even if the law was put into effect, which is very unlikely to begin with.

 

[hso]

If you've hidden your stuff it isn't of any interest to them. You can't legally buy one going forward and you can't legally sell one so hiding them takes them out of use.

Whether you decide to comply with registration or not (understand that there's nothing in the proposed Feinstein AWB that makes it possible to do most of what's proposed) you won't be using or selling them so they're effectively useless. Like burying money in mason jars in the back yard, no use to you or anyone else.

 

[JustinJ]

The inability to completely enforce laws has never prevented them from being passed before. You have to understand that laws like these are not just about the immediate. The thinking is that over time more and more guns will be confiscated, wear out or break, etc so the overall numbers go down. It also limits the number of people who own them through cost and hassle. The same logic is probably behind the closing of the machine gun registry. Another common misconception is that laws are passed with the sole goal of completely stopping specific type crimes. In reality nobody expects this but rather are trying to at least reduce the incidence.

 

[MachIVshooter]

1) Expect complete honest and voluntary compliance?

Would be completely naive and unrealistic

2) Break down the doors of those who are on some list and search the house?

They can't. They lack the manpower to do so, especially once you take the total number of "agents" (LEO, Military, ATF, etc) and remove those who refuse on moral grounds and those who refuse because they want to live.

3) Will we be allowed to defend our property?

Depends on how you look at at. The constitution says yes, but numerous laws will make you a criminal for doing so. In the end, though, the only part of this question that you really need to ask is how you'll be remembered posthumously.

4) Will we be forced to suffer an ala carte US Constitution?

We already are.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Mach, you hit the nail on the head again...

 

[JBrady555]

If they do pass something then all the gun owners in the U.S. should just ban together and not comply. Just say no.

 

[hso]

We should ban together BEFORE they pass something and tell our elected officials NO.

Prohibition didn't stop alcohol from being consumed out of sight of the law and a firearms prohibition won't stop Americans from keeping their guns out of sight.

My worst fear is that the details of registering firearms will be so simple that most people will simply say, "Oh, it doesn't cost me anything and I can simply mail in a post card? Well, sure.". We need to make sure that there's a poison pill provision in any AWB that makes it expensive and odious to the average gun owner to comply so the greatest number possible squawk about it loudly.

 

[Bopleo]

We should ban together BEFORE they pass something and tell our elected officials NO.

Prohibition didn't stop alcohol from being consumed out of sight of the law and a firearms prohibition won't stop Americans from keeping their guns out of sight.

My worst fear is that the details of registering firearms will be so simple that most people will simply say, "Oh, it doesn't cost me anything and I can simply mail in a post card? Well, sure.". We need to make sure that there's a poison pill provision in any AWB that makes it expensive and odious to the average gun owner to comply so the greatest number possible squawk about it loudly.

Even if they are hidden they would still be in the possession of the people and still there when needed for any reason.

 

[tomrkba]

NFA 1934 effectively ended private machinegun ownership by 99% of the common population. What percentage of today's gun owners have a fully automatic weapon? 1-5%? This is a marginalized group that is very vulnerable to legislative attack, especially after Heller.

A six month wait, $200 tax, and local LEO approval on semi-auto rifles will have the same effect on AR-15 pattern rifles.

"ala-carte Constitution"

I called for national demonstrations by gun owners in another thread. It's time to take a few days off and march or we'll start seeing all sorts of crazy government behavior in its "War on Guns". We need to yank their leash, hard.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Not to put on a paranoid's tinfoil hat, but the same people who celebrated on election day because they were 110% sure Romney would win "by a landslide" were in for a very rude awakening (don't blame me; I voted for Kodos.)

Political plausibility is always changing. A ban like this stood no chance of even making the news until the CT incident. If we have another massive shooting, the emotional pot, still roiling, will spill over and momentum will even be greater. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure so getting these issues taken care of in their infancy stands the greatest chance of success.

For the folks who default to "cold dead hands" but won't take 5 whole minutes to email or call your reps, who are you fooling? You'll be the first to cry uncle and give up your guns if you can't even be bothered to fire off an email or call. Being an Internet commando doesn't work in real life. Plenty of people in other countries were steamrolled by their government. Plenty of countrymen even helped. Americans are no different. Cultures and society may differ but we're sill all the same fundamentally. See:
Milgram experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Stanford Prison Experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

A ban like this will never be completely effective, but its going to cause a lot of turmoil and mistrust amongst citizens and put us down a worse path. That's why it can't get to that point.

 

[xXxplosive]

Just like they do here in NJ...............and you won't like it.

 

[edfrompa]

Next they will be banning gun forums!! What a crock!!
You bet the gun owners will stick together. This is what the second amendment is all about. This is our right to own and to protect the constitution of this United States of America. I took that oath over fifty years ago. This land is our land, not Democrats, republicans, or any other organization that comes along. We the people, one nation under God!! Not Feinstien,.not the politicians. Now you all got me pissed!!!

 

[Slipknot_Slim]

I doubt seriously that Feinstein's bill will pass in its present configuration (whatever that is). I've not even seen a bill yet. The most likely thing to pass, simply because it has the most public support, is a ban on the sale of high capacity magazines. I think even some of the most conservative members of congress might support that in an effort to show their constituents that they are "doing something about the problem". That will be their first step. If the public clamor continues, then they will propose other measures. Hopefully, by that time, some other "crisis" will have developed to divert their attention.

 

[Deanimator]

As ineffectively as the Fugitive Slave Law, and with equivalent levels of danger to the enforcers.

 

[Deanimator]

That will be their first step. If the public clamor continues

WHAT "public clamor"?

All of the "clamor" is coming from:

• The commercial news media.
• The same anti-gun groups.
• The same anti-gun politicians.

I don't see ANY gun control coming out of this... unless the Republicans are willing to lose the House in order to HELP Obama.

Not impossible, but neither is an alien invasion.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Gun owners will stick together, like they have in New York, California, Chicago, and DC? Where are the protests there? Where was the civil disobedience? Where are the stories of people standing off against "the man" come to take their guns?

Gun owners just cave in and comply, and a few hide their guns like precious loaves of bread in communist Russia and pretend they're exercising their second amendment rights. Others outside those areas "help" fight the cause by providing the ever-helpful advice of "duh, just move!"

Don't kid yourselves. Australia wasn't a nation of sissies. They're just as rugged, individual, and outdoorsy as Americans. You can't even own a pump-action shotgun now. Humans are humans, and easily influenced by authority.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Cesiumsponge and HSO are right. Email, write, and call your Reps every chance you get. I have sent 19 letters & somewhere around +/- 30 emails in the past week. I will send that many more in the upcoming week. We cannot back down. I plan on making sure that everyone within ear shot can hear my opinion. I urge everyone else to do the same. Please keep as cool headed and calm as you can, but overwhelm any anti with the facts. While I have "From my Cold Dead Hands" in my signature, I also mean it. I did not fight overseas to have my rights taken away at home. We need to be United NOW, not after...

 

[SuperNaut]

Yep, money goes to pro-2A orgs and/or Alan Gura, letters go to your "representatives." All the rest is just hot air.

 

[Batty67]

Regardless of the eventual outcome, I see at a minimum: magazine capacity restrictions and private sales prohibited. I personally think NRA will need to concede some issues as a we wont back down an inch approach may very well get more components of the AWB passed. But I'm no laywer.

I honestly have little issue with restricting/regulating the private sales of firearms. It DOES provide a non-documentable means for criminals and mentally unstable persons to get weapons. Of course, it affects the vast majority of persons selling firearms in-state (I've sold two handguns myself), but there are other means to sell them that cut into profits but are not terribly expensive of a pain to use. Hello spikes in FFL transfers...

I do not think there will be bans of assault weapons as described or confiscations and mandatory buy-back programs. I think the fed (and states?) will have registered ARs go through some form of NFA (or derivative process) and realize how much money they will bring in. There might be some sort of buy-back program to avoid the NFA madness. I do not think most semiautomatic handguns will get banned, but new ones will ALL be Ca-compliant, or something like that.

For me, the BIG issue is whether existing firearms and magazines will be grandfathered.

 

[SuperNaut]

Regardless of the eventual outcome, I see at a minimum: magazine capacity restrictions and private sales prohibited. I personally think NRA will need to concede some issues as a we wont back down an inch approach may very well get more components of the AWB passed. But I'm no laywer.

I honestly have little issue with restricting/regulating the private sales of firearms. It DOES provide a non-documentable means for criminals and mentally unstable persons to get weapons. Of course, it affects the vast majority of persons selling firearms in-state (I've sold two handguns myself), but there are other means to sell them that cut into profits but are not terribly expensive of a pain to use. Hello spikes in FFL transfers...

I do not think there will be bans of assault weapons as described or confiscations and mandatory buy-back programs. I think the fed (and states?) will have registered ARs go through some form of NFA (or derivative process) and realize how much money they will bring in. There might be some sort of buy-back program to avoid the NFA madness. I do not think most semiautomatic handguns will get banned, but new ones will ALL be Ca-compliant, or something like that.

For me, the BIG issue is whether existing firearms and magazines will be grandfathered.

This will only happen if we let it happen.

 

[Deanimator]

Regardless of the eventual outcome, I see at a minimum: magazine capacity restrictions and private sales prohibited. I personally think NRA will need to concede some issues as a we wont back down an inch approach may very well get more components of the AWB passed. But I'm no laywer.

You're not much of a strategist either.

The other side has maximalist goals. They're willing to achieve them in stages. Unless you have the same goals, there's simply ZERO benefit in altering the time table without altering the goals.

Elimination of private sales has NO purpose beyond future confiscation.

If you REALLY think that you can bargain with the other side, you either don't know the other side OR you DO know them and hope nobody else does.

The answer, yet again is, "NO, I REFUSE."

 

[Batty67]

You're not much of a strategist either.

The other side has maximalist goals. They're willing to achieve them in stages. Unless you have the same goals, there's simply ZERO benefit in altering the time table without altering the goals.

Elimination of private sales has NO purpose beyond future confiscation.

If you REALLY think that you can bargain with the other side, you either don't know the other side OR you DO know them and hope nobody else does.

The answer, yet again is, "NO, I REFUSE."

I'm a scientist and writer-editor. I'm a former Army NG officer. I work in DC in the field of policy and regulations (science, research, and health). So, I think I'm fairl savvy in DC politics. But I'm no expert.

Again, I think SOME gun controls are invetible, and realize they are taking an incremental approach to get more-and-more. My personal opinion is that going "to the table" (they so love that descriptor) with concede nothing approach might backfire. Again, just my opinion.

Again, the main issue will be grandfathering. Yes, no, partially...?

 

[Deanimator]

Again, I think SOME gun controls are invetible, and realize they are taking an incremental approach to get more-and-more. My personal opinion is that going "to the table" (they so love that descriptor) with concede nothing approach might backfire. Again, just my opinion.

"Backfire" HOW???

If they've got the votes for a magazine ban, they've likely got the votes for a rifle ban... and a whole lot more besides.

They've either got the votes or they don't. Right now, they likely don't.

Tell me what CONCEIVABLE reason they might have to not do EVERYTHING they have the votes for. You can't do it because there isn't one.

What do you call a "compromise" where one side agrees to give up a lot and the other side agrees to give up NOTHING, and take EVERYTHING it wants later?

What do WE (and I use the term VERY loosely) get out of such a "compromise"? Chuck Schumer will LIKE us?

What you are advocating is CAPITULATION without a fight.

Surrender on the installment plan is still just surrender.

NO, I REFUSE.

 

[Slipknot_Slim]

WHAT "public clamor"?

All of the "clamor" is coming from:

• The commercial news media.
• The same anti-gun groups.
• The same anti-gun politicians.

I don't see ANY gun control coming out of this... unless the Republicans are willing to lose the House in order to HELP Obama.

Not impossible, but neither is an alien invasion.

That's true, but those groups keep the issue stirred up. The media will keep the thing going until the next story comes along. A recent (yesterday) Gallup poll says that 54% of Americans still view the NRA favorably. I don't see a firearms ban getting passed either. Hopefully, they will leave magazines alone also but I still think that's the most vulnerable area for legislation.