Put it this way: if you were an Iraqi, would you turn in your weapon?

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http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/anatomy-iraqi-state.html

Anatomy of an Iraqi State

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.



If you want to understand what is going on in Iraq; why, for example, the US is confiscating weapons and forbidding people from taking their small arms out of their homes, turn to a timeless essay: Murray Rothbard's Anatomy of the State. Here we find the definition of the state, an examination of the ideological props for the state, the fallacies behind the usual justifications for the state, a contrast between state means and social means, a model for understanding relations between states in a federal system and an international system, and arguments concerning the impossibility of a limited state.

That's a lot to absorb from one essay. But once you understand it, it is possible to make sense of the grim scene we are witnessing in Iraq, in which an invader state is attempting to create legitimacy for itself at the same time it is attempting to subjugate the population. It is a perfect case study for understanding the process whereby a small band of conquerors – small relative to the conquered population – attempts to become the one institution in society that produces nothing itself but presumes to make and enforce legislation that everyone in society but itself must obey.

Rothbard defines a state as follows: "The State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion. While other individuals or institutions obtain their income by production of goods and services and by the peaceful and voluntary sale of these goods and services to others, the State obtains its revenue by the use of compulsion; that is, by the use and the threat of the jailhouse and the bayonet. Having used force and violence to obtain its revenue, the State generally goes on to regulate and dictate the other actions of its individual subjects."

The case of a conquering state like the US in Iraq introduces complicating factors. The state in question does not have a revenue problem. It takes from US taxpayers and spends the money in Iraq, the only remaining problem being that people prefer Saddam dinars to US dollars. But the US does have a compliance problem. It is not at all clear to most Iraqis why, precisely, they have an obligation to obey the US occupiers except to the extent that they are forced to do so. Establishing and maintaining a monopoly on the use of force becomes crucial. That means being the largest possessors of firepower and keeping all competitors at bay.

Now, following Rothbard's definition of the state, whether the state is military or civilian does nothing to change its essential nature. The monopoly on force in normal civic affairs can be disguised through civilian institutions such as courts and peaceful-looking bureaus and the like. Then force is used only after a series of steps defined by legislation. In the military state, such as that running Iraq and much of the third world, it takes a cruder form: men in uniforms driving Humvees and wielding large-caliber machine guns. The only question is whether the state's weapons can be concealed, which suggests a degree of legitimacy, or must be out in the open, which suggests instability.

Now to the news that the US military is confiscating citizens’ weapons in Iraq. The goal is to secure a monopoly of force and violence. By decree of the occupation government, broadcast through leaflets and loudspeakers, Iraqis will not be allowed to carry any concealed weapons except by permit issued by the US. All AK-47s, etc. must be turned in. Citizens will be allowed to keep small arms for home protection, but they may not take them out of the house. Open-air arms markets – one of the few sectors of thriving business in Iraq – will be shut down. There will be an amnesty period, but after that? Crackdown. No more shooting in the air at night, for example.

As the New York Times explains, "The main emphasis is to enable American forces to protect themselves against attacks." Weapons confiscation is "an important part" of the allied forces "efforts to secure the country…. The intention is to reduce attacks against allied forces, reduce crime, and stop violent fights among rival Iraqi groups."

Now, you don't have to be John Lott to know the result. The groups that the US is targeting in particular have the least reason to give up their weapons and every reason to keep them. The US can be sure that anyone who does turn in weapons is not a threat to the US or to anyone else. The criminals, meanwhile, will feel safer in the knowledge that people on the street and in cars are unarmed.

In short, US efforts to enforce gun control can only result in increased crime and ever more problems with armed gangs using ever more desperate tactics. In the end, this whole project will come to naught. The US has been unable to enforce gun control in Washington, DC. It sure as heck can't do it in Iraq, and to the extent it is successful, it only means more crime and violence.

What's interesting here is the motivation, which isn't really about stopping petty thievery but primarily about the state's control over society. What's true in Iraq is also true in the US. The most forthright defenders of gun ownership have made it clear that the best case for permitting it is precisely that it protects citizens against government tyranny.

When the US went into Iraq, no one imagined that months later the military would be searching people for weapons and attempting to impose a gun ban more severe than exists in many US states. But the logic of the situation has propelled the US into acting ever more tyrannically in Iraq, ever more brazenly in its coercive methods, and ever more comprehensively in its degree of attempted control over society. It must do this because it has no other source of legitimacy.

But in politics, every action generates a reaction. Iraqis will not comply with this order. They will keep and hide their weapons. And they will work to acquire more, now that the US has said it has no immediate intention of allowing Iraq to govern itself. Every additional step in attempted control will lead to ever more resistance. The US said it was going into Iraq to liberate that country. But it seems that, with these latest efforts, the end result will be an unending mire of a brutal and unstable military dictatorship or a humiliating pullout that will leave the country in chaos.

Put it this way: if you were an Iraqi, would you turn in your weapon?
 
I wouldn't turn in my guns if a domestic law said to do so - why would I listen to a foreigner who said the same thing?

As a Jew, I won't give up the means to protect my life, my family or my liberty - period. I've seen what happens to unarmed Jews.

As an American, I won't give up the means to protect my life, my family or my liberty - period. I've seen what happens to unarmed civilians when they go up against an armed government in countless countries over many millenia.

As a human being, I won't give up the means to protect my life, my family or my liberty - period. Molon Labe!:fire:
 
And if, somehow, I lost all of my weapons, I'd find a way to get more - no matter what.

I knew a rather angry Vietnam vet in NJ pretty well a few years back. I razzed him once about only owning a bolt-action Enfield and a couple of boxes of ammo, when he always talked about fighting the government. He just smiled and said "This old bolt action will get me any weapon that I want. I saw the VC do it to us, and I know the technique well."

While I often disagreed with him about things, that opened my eyes quite a bit.
 
One thing to mention about IRAQ.

Like middle eastern countries, it was a socialist/fascist semi-anarchy semi-tyranny.

But for LEGAL gun ownership, that was restricted to Baathist folk. If someone in IRAQ has an AK and had it LEGALLY he was one of Saddam's buddies, or loyal party-member.

If the average joe has one, he's used to hiding it from "gun control".


Battler
 
My guns would be keeping a low profile for a while, but they wouldn't be turning themselves in. I would, however, be trying to get as many of them off the streets as possible (and into my cache while the getting is good).
 
We need to write Iraq a constitution that guarantees the right of ordinary, law-abiding Iraqis to keep and bear arms, and the duty of the state to execute anyone who commits a crime involving the use of deadly weapons.

Rights include responsibilities.
 
the duty of the state to execute anyone who commits a crime involving the use of deadly weapons.


And then the state makes self defense a crime. Shooting without state permission a crime. Hunting a crime. Target shooting a crime. Negligent discharge a crime. Shooting inside the city limits a crime. Shooting outside the city limits a crime. Transporting a firearm is evidence of willful intent to commit one of the above and thus a crime. And so forth.

Next wonderful idea?:scrutiny:
 
No, if anything if I were an Iraqi, I would stock up with all the weapons caches being found everywhere. The country is poised to erupt into a civil war as soon as US forces leave.
 
I knew a rather angry Vietnam vet in NJ pretty well a few years back. I razzed him once about only owning a bolt-action Enfield and a couple of boxes of ammo, when he always talked about fighting the government. He just smiled and said "This old bolt action will get me any weapon that I want. I saw the VC do it to us, and I know the technique well."


Amen to that, brother!
 
NO
The main reason would be that if I got caught with it, it would be politically incorrect for the US Armed Services to really do anything to me about it other than take it away from me. They save the really harsh treatment for their own citizens back home.
 
U.S. Sets Deadline for Iraqis to Hand in Weapons
Sat May 24, 2003 10:41 AM ET




By Nadim Ladki
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military, struggling to restore law and order, on Saturday gave Iraqis three weeks to hand in automatic and heavy weapons as part of a campaign to crackdown on lawlessness after the fall of Saddam Hussein.

"Starting June 1, the people of Iraq will have a 14-day amnesty period to turn in unauthorized weapons to coalition forces at weapons control points here and throughout the country," the military said in a statement in Baghdad.

"After June 14, individuals caught with unauthorized weapons will be detained and face criminal charges."

Many people have weapons in Iraq, where guns are an expression of masculinity.

After the toppling of Saddam on April 9, looting of public and private institutions and homes swept the country and stolen weapons -- from pistols and AK-47 assault rifles to anti-tank grenades -- are sold on the streets at low prices.

Iraqis complain that with such anarchy and the abundance of weapons, the crime rate has reached unprecedented levels and the security situation is the worst in Iraq's modern history.

"No one in Iraq, unless authorized, may possess, conceal, hide or bury these weapons," the U.S. military said. "No one can trade, sell, barter, give or exchange automatic or heavy weapons with or to any person who is not an authorized representative of coalition forces."

Small arms -- including automatic rifles firing ammunition up to 7.62mm, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and pistols -- may be kept in homes and in a place of business, but may not be taken out in public, it said.

"Individuals will be instructed to turn in unauthorized weapons by placing the unloaded, disassembled weapon into a clear plastic bag provided by Coalition forces and walk slowly to the collection point. Collection points will be at designated locations like police stations and jointly manned by Iraqi and Coalition forces," it said.

It said weapons turned over to U.S.-led forces would either be destroyed or set aside for use by the new Iraqi army or police forces.

The U.S. civil administrator dissolved the defeated Iraqi armed forces on Friday, saying a new army would be formed.

Thousands of Iraqi police are returning to work across Iraq but the force is still too little and ill-equipped to be able to restore law and order.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2811193
 
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