How would you have handled this? Educate, or walk away?

[Zaydok Allen]

So I do a lot of solo hiking for recreation. I venture into a "Designated Wilderness Area" that has a high mountain lion population, and is rather isolated. You just don't see too many people where I like to hang out, and at the deepest point, you are about 5 miles from help or communication in any direction.

As a result, I always carry a gun when hiking as long as it's legal. I usually just carry a S&W J frame Airweight 642 loaded with 110 Cor Bon +p's. I'm not real satisfied with how much firepower I was carrying so I just picked up an XDs. That is a different issue.

Ok, so I showed up to a very difficult trail head, and was getting my pack loaded up when I saw three guys running down the trail toward the trail head. They were just exercising not running at me. Well like I said, it is a difficult trail and when they hit the downhill portion, they decided to run. Well they were walking around and cooling off when they got to the parking area, when all of a sudden one of them walked past me and circled around behind me while I was chatting with his buddies.

Situational awareness kicked in and my hand immediately shot into my pocket and got a firm hold on my J frame. I quickly turned and repositioned myself so I had all three guys in front of me and could draw if need be. No one said anything, or even noticed the way that I moved. The guy was just walking around and cooling off, and didn't mean anything by it. They had no ill intent and I talked to them for a few minutes with my gun gripped firmly in my hand.

I went on my merry way, but as I chatted with them I eyed them up and stayed at least 20 feet away from them. The entire time I was thinking "That is a really good way to get a gun pulled and pointed at you!" I said nothing about it, but I now find myself wondering if I should have pointed that out to the guy. It could save him in the future.

Or he could have taken a comment like that as a threat. I don't know what the right answer is. It was harmless, but I don't think I over reacted. You never circle around someone like that you don't know, the same as walking up behind someone and touching them is a real bad idea. I've had words with a few people about that. I shave my head and some friends think it is cute to walk up and rub it like it's a magic 8 ball. That's funny and all, but let me know you are coming. I've nearly choked a few people who have done that.... literally.

So what do you all think? Did I over react? Should I have said something? Did I handle it correctly?

 

[HOOfan_1]

Sounds to me like the guy was walking around minding his own business....

 

[Zaydok Allen]

He was. Let me clarrify. I was talking to his two friends who were about 20 feet in front of me, while the guy walked rather quickly and circled around behind me. He was only about 6 feet behind me and it was an empty parking lot, and he positioned himself so I was directly between him and his buddies. I felt like he was getting in my space and setting me up to get rushed from front and behind.

I realize he wasn't, and it was inocent, but it made me really uncomfortable the way he did it. I DID NOT DRAW. He just made me really nervouse.

My question is should I have told him, so he doesn't repeat the mistake? I'm a very aware person and believe that is your first defense. Pay attention and you may avoid having someone get the drop on you.

You think I am paranoid HOOfan_1? Not telling you you're wrong, just asking. I accept that I am a bit paranoid, but I believe paranoia can save your life. I would never draw though unless I saw a real threat coming at me.

 

[Schofield3]

Playing it cool is the mission. Being out in the middle of nowhere I would be cautious around anyone too. but discussing more than is needed with the stranger is probably not advantageous. If they come to learn you have a firearm and out in nowhere they could take to following you either to jump you and take the gun or who knows what.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

I think what you did was fine. No need to make a scene, but good to be prepared and aware. Personally, I've noticed an increased number of people who don't understand the concept of personal space so yeah.

I probably would've done the same thing.

- TNG

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I wish Mr. Ayoob would chime in on this one as to whether or not I should have let the guy know that what he did could be misunderstood.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

You're not paranoid. I wouldn't educate them as no good came come from it. I don't like strangers behind my back either. Heck, when I go to meetings at work, I will rarely have the door at my back. I prefer the urinal in the men's room that is next to the wall so that I don't have strangers in both sides. The list goes on.

 

[splithoof]

Say nothing. We must realize that many folks are not gun people, were not raised around firearms, and are in condition white for the most part. The fact that they were out exercising, far away from where most goblins are too lazy to roam, is an added factor. Keeping vigilant and aware, as you did, was key.
Warning them of something they likely don't understand may send up red flags or cause grief on your part later.

 

[Apachedriver]

^^^ +1 ^^^

It's all part of assessing your situation and deciding your actions appropriately. The only time any of it should become a matter of concern for anyone other than yourself is once you have drawn a weapon and gone defensive. Otherwise the only learning to be done is for yourself for future reference.

If nothing else, they get freaked out or feel threatened (for any myriad of reasons you don't know about), they report it, and you get a ranger or other LEO coming after you on the trail for nothing illegal. There goes your day.

JMHO.

 

[guyfromohio]

It's not our jobs to educate anyone but our own kids. I wouldn't be surprised if further conversation would have brought a LEO to your return. It would have been a threat, intended or not.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

You did fine.

You maintained situation awareness, positioned yourself to minimize a perceived threat and allow you to take action if necessary.

You have no need to explain anything to anybody...indeed, you shouldn't. Their actions turned out to be innocent and they weren't doing anything "inherently dangerous".

Having attempted to explain would have brought to their attention that you were carrying concealed...which defeats the "concealed" aspect. It may have alarmed them unnecessarily for any number of reasons. And may have come across as threatening when you meant nothing of the sort. And later, you may find yourself having to explain all this to some local authority, for whatever reason.

The bottom line is you maintained your situational awareness and maneuvered yourself appropriately to maximize your safety.

'nuff said.

 

[12131]

So I do a lot of solo hiking for recreation. I venture into a "Designated Wilderness Area" that has a high mountain lion population, and is rather isolated. You just don't see too many people where I like to hang out, and at the deepest point, you are about 5 miles from help or communication in any direction.

As a result, I always carry a gun when hiking as long as it's legal. I usually just carry a S&W J frame Airweight 642 loaded with 110 Cor Bon +p's. I'm not real satisfied with how much firepower I was carrying so I just picked up an XDs. That is a different issue.

Ok, so I showed up to a very difficult trail head, and was getting my pack loaded up when I saw three guys running down the trail toward the trail head. They were just exercising not running at me. Well like I said, it is a difficult trail and when they hit the downhill portion, they decided to run. Well they were walking around and cooling off when they got to the parking area, when all of a sudden one of them walked past me and circled around behind me while I was chatting with his buddies.

Situational awareness kicked in and my hand immediately shot into my pocket and got a firm hold on my J frame. I quickly turned and repositioned myself so I had all three guys in front of me and could draw if need be. No one said anything, or even noticed the way that I moved. The guy was just walking around and cooling off, and didn't mean anything by it. They had no ill intent and I talked to them for a few minutes with my gun gripped firmly in my hand.

I went on my merry way, but as I chatted with them I eyed them up and stayed at least 20 feet away from them. The entire time I was thinking "That is a really good way to get a gun pulled and pointed at you!" I said nothing about it, but I now find myself wondering if I should have pointed that out to the guy. It could save him in the future. OK, I don't get this part. Good that you had situational awareness and were at the ready, but why do you think you should have said that out loud?

Or he could have taken a comment like that as a threat. If I were him, minding my own business and cooling down walking around, you bet I would have taken that comment as hostile on your part. I don't know what the right answer is. It was harmless, but I don't think I over reacted. You never circle around someone like that you don't know, the same as walking up behind someone and touching them is a real bad idea. It's a park. Folks exercise, walk around, cool down, etc...Walking around is not the same thing as sneaking up behind you and touching you. I've had words with a few people about that. I shave my head and some friends think it is cute to walk up and rub it like it's a magic 8 ball. That's funny and all, but let me know you are coming. I've nearly choked a few people who have done that.... literally.

So what do you all think? Did I over react? Should I have said something? Did I handle it correctly?

My comments in red above. And bottom line is I'm glad you didn't blurt out that comment.

 

[coalman]

So what do you all think? Did I over react? Should I have said something? Did I handle it correctly?

I was not there. I don't know you. I don't know them. People often chat on trails, especially if they are hard trails as often you may have more in common with fellow "hardcores", especially if they are of similar age. That said, I think you over-reacted. And, granting my ignorance stated in my first three sentences, I think if that situation got you so antsy to the point you needed to get hold of your gun to feel at ease you may need to rethink having a gun on you as brandishing could be a too short step away for you. Of course, you're paranoid right up to the point they are really out to get you. And, here, no harm no foul as it turns out, so life continues merrily on. You asked. That's my candid opinion.

 

[coloradokevin]

Not to sound unsupportive here, but it sounds like you simply got surprised by someone's innocent actions. For some reason it startled you, and I promise you that has happened to almost all of us at some point or another (I'll provide a personal example of that in a minute).

It is certainly alright to raise your awareness level a bit when you see that someone is behaving in a way that could be characteristically similar to the behavior someone might demonstrate when setting up an attack. But, I believe that a good use of tactics also involves realizing that you probably need to reach a more defined "trigger point" before going for a draw. You DEFINITELY should not have pulled your firearm in this situation, nor do I believe you should have discussed the issue with the innocent jogger... he wasn't doing anything wrong, he simply surprised you a bit. People coming off of trails from a hike are generally not the threats you need to look out for, and you had the presence of mind to realize that they were exercising there, not looking for vehicles to break into, or people to rob/rape/kill. But, again, you felt a guarded posture was appropriate due to the fact that you were: 1) Alone 2) in a remote area 3) outnumbered 4) seeing behavior that appeared consistent with a setup for an attack. Feeling guarded is okay there, and preparing for a defense is also alright... drawing wildly on anyone who gets too close is obviously not alright, though you clearly know that already.

Here's a personal example that happened to me this summer (surprise and reaction):

I work as a police officer in a rough neighborhood (been doing so for about a decade now), and had just finished a late swing shift on a Friday night. I had the next two days off and was planning a backpacking trip with the lady. When I got home that night she reminded me that we needed beef jerky. I was tired and worn out from a day that had involved 2 gang shootings and a foot chase, but figured I might as well hit up the local Walmart for some jerky before bed.

I went to the Walmart in plain clothes with my standard Glock 26 off-duty gun concealed in a belt holster. The Walmart is right off of a highway, and sometimes attracts panhandlers, and some other shady looking characters. As I walked into the store I saw a guy eyeballing me a bit outside of the store. He was standing off to the side of the door, about 25 feet from the entrance, and just seemed to be loitering alone in the area. As I shopped I later spotted him down an isle from me, apparently watching me. This definitely got my guard up a bit, though I still kind of presumed he was just a run-of-the-mill weirdo, or a panhandler who was sizing me up for a sales pitch.

I finished my shopping and was checking out at the register when I again saw this guy standing outside of the door of the store looking in at me. He had a hand in a pocket, and was still giving me the creepy-guy vibe. I was talking to the cashier for a couple of minutes before I exited the store, since I often shop in this place at night, and recognize quite a few of the employees. As I exited the store a few minutes later I was watching for the suspicious guy, but didn't see him. After looking around I figured he had simply taken off to do some other ridiculous thing with his evening. I had driven my diesel truck that night, and it was parked about halfway across the half-empty lot from the door (it's a long bed extended cab, so I usually park further out in the lot with it).

Anyway, as I walked past a couple of cars in the lot I saw at least one guy (not my guy) standing near a small pickup truck. He didn't concern me in any particular way, and I didn't really give him a second thought. But, when I was about 25 feet away from him he apparently dropped something heavy and metallic into the bed of his beatup truck (later appeared to be a sizable metal toolbox he just tossed in there). This made a sudden loud BANG on an otherwise quiet evening... I was already guarded from the suspicious party I knew had been watching me, and I was tired and fried from a tough day working a tough 'hood in summer. I reacted to the sound of this guy's racket by spinning around and beginning to clear my T-shirt from the area where it conceals my gun. But, like you, I stopped short of drawing, or even revealing my weapon's existence, as I quickly assessed the situation to be totally benign. It got my heart rate up, and I felt embarrassed for being surprised like that. Sometimes that's just how things work though, when a combination of events push your internal threat barometer higher than you expected it to go.

When carrying you need to exercise an even greater level of psychological/physiological restraint than most people do. Everyone who has worked in my business long enough can probably share a few stories about times when they were surprised by something that didn't go as expected, and it sometimes gets interesting.

I'll share one more:

I was once clearing a home on a burglar alarm where an at-home homeowner told me that they were "sure" they had spotted an intruder going into their upstairs bedroom, which was right next to a room where their infant (who was still in the house) was sleeping. As my partner and I cleared the home's upstairs level, a cat suddenly jumped off of a closet shelf, right into my partner's face. My partner was just around a corner from me in the dark house, and slightly out of my view. I just heard him yell: "Oh (swear word)", and heard a ridiculous amount of noise as a scared cat came bowling around the corner at about 30 mph, before crashing into the wall next to me.

Since we were clearing a home to begin with, and EXPECTED to find a bad guy, we obviously already had guns in hand, and I'll guarantee you that this particular surprise got our adrenaline pumping very quickly. But, again, a near instantaneous and somewhat subconscious threat assessment saved us from stealing life number 9 from the feline. Incidentally, the homeowner was just paranoid... no one was ever in the home.

 

[Dr_B]

Say nothing. We must realize that many folks are not gun people, were not raised around firearms, and are in condition white for the most part. The fact that they were out exercising, far away from where most goblins are too lazy to roam, is an added factor. Keeping vigilant and aware, as you did, was key.
Warning them of something they likely don't understand may send up red flags or cause grief on your part later.

Yep, that's it.

Where I live, there is easy access to wilderness within half an hour from town. I'd say probably half of the people who hike or camp out here are going into the woods because they view it as a safer place than the city.

To them, no people = no danger. The woods are filled with adorable creatures who are living as nature intended and if you just respect them (and always remember you are the dirty, irresponsible human) then you will be OK.

Last time I went hiking alone, I had an encounter with a bull moose who popped out of the tree line about 10 feet away. He was not pleased to see me there. Yes, he was in his element and I was the stranger, but I still carry a gun. People who are bothered by that don't go hiking with me.

 

[ATBackPackin]

Someone behind you while being engaged from the front put up your red flags, as is should. However, if you were to tell them why you didn't like that, it is likely to put up their red flags. Then everyone would be on the defensive.

Personally I would have most likely just repositioned myself without being obvious so that no one was at my back. Hard to say without being exactly in your shoes, but I do agree though that you can never be too aware.

Shawn

 

[LemmyCaution]

It is your responsibility to adapt to situations that stoke your fears.

It is not your privilege to instruct others that they have a responsibility to adapt themselves to your fears.

The fears are yours. Own them.

Your actions were correct. The alternatives you hypothesize, not so much.

 

[Lex Luthier]

It is the imperative of a Bad Guy to get the jump on his victim. Acting the manner in which they did was a societally perfect smokescreen for committing an illegal act.

Not to sound like an old guy, but there are a lot of younger people who have no grasp or respect of certain moral boundaries and personal space. In an age when a clean cut perp can blend in by wearing nice clothes like his potential victims, you did the right thing. If this was me, I would have established eye contact, and maybe a little trust before getting too close. This is common sense.

 

[Jaxondog]

You did the right thing in my opinion, your fear's were arroused and you reacted. Everybody went home, forget it.

 

[sansone]

say nothing.. you're not viewed as an educator in a situation like that.
good that you assumed a defensive posture, but as you said.. it was innocent

 

[bikerdoc]

Yo did what was right for you (and me) in keeping with your practice of situational awareness and personal security.

This was not a teaching moment.

ColaradoKevin

BTDT, I retired in 88 and as I have said before a retired cop is just a another name for civilian. Doesnt mean I give up my powers of observation, and situational analysis, and take precautions to protect me and mine.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I was talking to his two friends who were about 20 feet in front of me, while the guy walked rather quickly and circled around behind me. He was only about 6 feet behind me and it was an empty parking lot, and he positioned himself so I was directly between him and his buddies. I felt like he was getting in my space and setting me up to get rushed from front and behind.

I realize he wasn't, and it was inocent, but it made me really uncomfortable the way he did it. I DID NOT DRAW. He just made me really nervouse.

My question is should I have told him, so he doesn't repeat the mistake?

What "mistake"? The guys are regular Joes. According to you there was nothing in their demeanor that you interpreted as a threat.

Turn the question around and ask it of yourself: If you were simply going about your business and a stranger suddenly confronted you and told you not to do something because it frightens him and he might pull a gun on you, how would you feel? Threatened? The guy's paranoid? Should I call police and report that a crazy man with a gun threatened me?

 

[drsfmd]

If you're that paranoid, don't offer him the opportunity to get behind you. Lean up against your vehicle or something...

 

[JustinJ]

If somebody walked up to you dressed in attire commonly associated with thugs or criminals and asked for directions i assume you would go into a higher alert level before determining that they aren't a threat, right? Would that warrant suggesting they change their dress as it is a mistake that could result in a gun being drawn on them? We can't go around telling people not to do socially acceptable things just because we believe it is not conducive to our sense of security.

If you really felt the need to comment i would suggest saying in a joking manner, "hey there, i might mistaken you for a ninja sneaking up behind me". He may catch the hint or he may not.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Continuing the discussion and clarifying.

According to you there was nothing in their demeanor that you interpreted as a threat.

Nothing prior to that moment. The SPEED that he all of a sudden used to move behind me seemed out of place and the fact that he seemed to DELIBERATELY get behind me was what I percieved as threatening. I guess I need to make that clear. When he moved the way he did, I believed there was an immediate threat..... But I kept my head. It was after the fact that I got out of the situation that I realized there was no ill intent, but his actions can and were misunderstood.

I know it is hard to make a call when no one saw what happened except for me.

Mistake?

The mistake he made was acting in a way that made a person really uncomfortable, by accident. As stated, it was inocent and he had no idea he made me uncomfortable, but I didn't know that at the moment. Think about it like this. If a cop was talking to you and your friends, would you suddenly walk past him and circle around behind him? No, I don't think anyone would. I'm not a cop, and I realize the situation is not the same, but the action seemed fishy, and I wouldn't do that to someone I didn't know. I give people a wide space when ever possible. In an empty parking lot, where there is enough room for three vehicles between theirs and mine, there is no need for this guy to be standing 6 feet behind me.

If you're that paranoid, don't offer him the opportunity to get behind you. Lean up against your vehicle or something...

You know that was the other thing. My back was to my truck. When I started to move toward the trail and stopped to talk to his friends is when he moved behind me. That was another thing that made me pay attention to what was going on. I guess I can put this on me as I could have stood there and waited for them to leave, but despite my hightened attention to the situation, that some seem to think is paranoia (and that's fine since you are all entitled to your opinion), I really don't think anyone wants to hurt or rob me. That doesn't however make me trust anyone. Maybe I should have daudled a bit to give them more time.

This was not a teaching moment

I guess I agree more and more with this. My goal would be to save him grief in the future and make him aware of an action that could be misunderstood that he had no idea was a bad idea.

However, no matter how I worded it, it would probably have put him and his buddies on the defensive, and that could have lead to problems for me. So I guess I did exactly what I should have. I made myself ready to defend myself from a possible threat, but didn't jump the gun (pun intended), and I did not share that I was carrying. Still though, I like to hear other people's perspective on things. I live in a remote place also where help is not quick to come. I realize that makes me feel more self reliant and feel the need to really watch out for myself.

It is not your privilege to instruct others that they have a responsibility to adapt themselves to your fears.

The fears are yours. Own them.

No it isn't. It also isn't my responsibility to instruct someone that they need to respect personal space. It is everyone's responsibility to use common sense and not make other people uncomfortable with their actions. In my opinion, and in this circumstance, this guy showed poor common sense. My goal would be to help him avoid a situation in the future that makes others uncomfortable who doesn't show proper restraint as I did.

Motivation is good, but I think outcome would be bad. So me saying something would have been inappropriate. I agree with you.

I do own my fears. That's why I carry a gun.... to protect myself. I do not rely on anyone to do it for me, including the police.

Not to sound like an old guy, but there are a lot of younger people who have no grasp or respect of certain moral boundaries and personal space.

You don't sound old. I'm 31 and agree with you totally.

The woods are filled with adorable creatures who are living as nature intended and if you just respect them (and always remember you are the dirty, irresponsible human) then you will be OK.

Adorable!!!! HA!!!! I have been nearly run over buy deer on 2 events, elk on another, I've been chased by a domestic bull, I've had lions screem at me because I was too close, a bobcat come out of a pile of brush, I've been chased by hawks of all diferent sizes, and had a turkey vulture jump out of a cliff side cave nest and nearly knock me down the hill, I also had a buck in the rut charge me the other night a block from my house, and I've been bit by a dog......... I'm a professional forester and spend more time in the woods than inside. I work alone too, so I'm pretty in tune to the forest. I think that it has made me a more aware person in general, since I have the responsibility of getting myself to, and from, and through the woods with a compas and mabe a map or air photo. I do acknowledge that my personality type, which is what allows me to be really good at my job, has definately given me a really big personal space bubble.

Don't ever forget that we are animals as well, and have every right to be out in the woods the same as any critter. We evolved on this planet too. When we lose respect for nature and abuse it, that is when we lose the moral high ground. And yes, I think a lot of people do this. I pick up so much trash out there!!! It pisses me off to no end.

If you really felt the need to comment i would suggest saying in a joking manner, "hey there, i might mistaken you for a ninja sneaking up behind me". He may catch the hint or he may not.

This is a good idea.

Continue on all. This is an interesting discussion. Yes, I have a lot of time on my hands right now. I'm sitting in a hospital waiting room, as I've been doing for the last week. So having this ditraction is a blessing.