jakemccoy
Member
blackhawk2000 wrote:
If you were referring to my post about liability in Cali, that's irrelevant to what I said.
If you were referring to my post about liability in Cali, that's irrelevant to what I said.
How young is too young?
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ColinthePilot
Member
It seemed safer to me than the first time I shot, and that was at a Boy Scout range with an NRA instructor and a .22LR boltgun. Pretty safe from what i remember. I was about 10 or so and was supervised, but no one was controlling my rifle. Seems like getting the kid familiarized with guns is a good idea. I might not use an AR (in any caliber) for the first time, but A. you don't know that it was the kids first time; B. It wouldn't be that I was so Appalled by it. He had the shoulder thing that goes up on his shoulder, and the EBR seemed to be behaving itself around the kid and not trying to shoot anyone. Seemed ok to me.
TCB in TN
Member
I started all three of my children off shooting a semi-marlin .22 with a cut down stock. We started off loading 1 round at a time and as they proved they were safe enough and responsible enough I began giving them more freedom and more rounds. I personally started using the little marlin because of its size and its cost, it fit my requirments for both.
Ed Ames
Member
OK, let's back up for a second... not talking about this video but about the "you don't put ARs in the hands of kids".
ARs are one of the better choices for kids. Light weight, adjustable LOP stock, low recoil, available .22LR converters and pistol caliber uppers. You can give a kid an AR when they are 8 and they'll still have a usable rifle when they are 80.
I have a rifle that was someone's childhood gun a long time ago... the owner (or his parents) built up multiple layers of stock extensions to extend the LOP as he grew. The result was ugly but functional. I know of other people whose first guns were handed off to a younger sibling, or to a cousin, or sold, or in a few cases saved in the hopes that a future child would understand getting an old gun. Those are fine too but wouldn't the kid prefer something of their own? Something they'll be able to keep and use for decades to come?
From an "introduction path" perspective it makes a lot of sense to me.
ARs are one of the better choices for kids. Light weight, adjustable LOP stock, low recoil, available .22LR converters and pistol caliber uppers. You can give a kid an AR when they are 8 and they'll still have a usable rifle when they are 80.
I have a rifle that was someone's childhood gun a long time ago... the owner (or his parents) built up multiple layers of stock extensions to extend the LOP as he grew. The result was ugly but functional. I know of other people whose first guns were handed off to a younger sibling, or to a cousin, or sold, or in a few cases saved in the hopes that a future child would understand getting an old gun. Those are fine too but wouldn't the kid prefer something of their own? Something they'll be able to keep and use for decades to come?
From an "introduction path" perspective it makes a lot of sense to me.
cracked butt
Member
An Ar carbine with a .22 conversion might almost be the ideal gun for a child.The stock is adjustable, the sights are outstanding, and the ergonomics are hard to beat. My only preference would be for a single shot rifle however.
The argument that a child should shoot a EBR simply absurd.
The argument that a child should shoot a EBR simply absurd.
Beatnik
Member
I thought it was damned cute.
However, I can see how a family activity involving both parents, under strict supervision, to safely teach something valuable to an obviously well behaved and mannered child, could really get a lot of people angry.
I've wanted an AR for a while now. I think I'll use my 1-year-old daughter's future training as an excuse.
Edit: I'd just like to add that how many children a person has (or at least how much exposure to children a person has) is actually relevant information.
This boy was not in default "I'm a 3-year-old" mode.
However, I can see how a family activity involving both parents, under strict supervision, to safely teach something valuable to an obviously well behaved and mannered child, could really get a lot of people angry.
I've wanted an AR for a while now. I think I'll use my 1-year-old daughter's future training as an excuse.
Edit: I'd just like to add that how many children a person has (or at least how much exposure to children a person has) is actually relevant information.
This boy was not in default "I'm a 3-year-old" mode.
Doesn't matter what we think. While the act itself might have been harmless fun, posting it on the internet is a bad idea. Perception is reality. Non-gun folks will be appalled at the idea of such a young kid shooting a gun and the anti crowd will use it to show the irresponsibility of those in the gun culture. We need positive PR and this doesn't help.
K
K
30 cal slob
Member
if my kid wants to ogle a minigun or a grenade launcher, what's the big deal, as long as it's under supervision and all safety rules are followed?
curiosity sated. mystery deflated.
curiosity sated. mystery deflated.
snow92686 said:
I know an awful lot of people who have never had children, nor lived with them, who have very strong opinions about how other people should raise their children. People who have a bit more experience with kids tend to have more realistic assessments of what children are able to understand, and when.
pax
VARifleman
Member
Kentak, the gun was in full control of the mother, and the 3 year old was well behaved. As for the people saying that he wasn't interested, he may have been interested before he shot, but decided he didn't quite like the recoil, or some other variation of the event. Many posters here in the past have talked about benefits of being open with their children about firearms, such as letting them handle it under the control of an adult until they get bored, which was usually pretty quickly. This really is just one step after that.
SamTuckerMTNMAN
Member
this weekend
I was out shooting with my son. We were shooting handloads in .308 and some .223 through EBR.
He'll be 2 months old in a week.
Granted...he did little more than watch near the spotter well bundled and muffled up (ears).
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I fired a shotgun at 4 years. Knocked me down, I cried and remember it. Probably not the best idea, but I love guns and my grandpa.
Handling and safety is best after 4 IMO. Something soft, then BB or start with BB, then .22, and up. Again IMO.
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st
I was out shooting with my son. We were shooting handloads in .308 and some .223 through EBR.
He'll be 2 months old in a week.
Granted...he did little more than watch near the spotter well bundled and muffled up (ears).
-------------------
I fired a shotgun at 4 years. Knocked me down, I cried and remember it. Probably not the best idea, but I love guns and my grandpa.
Handling and safety is best after 4 IMO. Something soft, then BB or start with BB, then .22, and up. Again IMO.
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st
American_Pit_Bull
Member
I believe that the more videos of children safely shooting guns, the better... The only time that some hear about children and firearms is after a tragedy occurs. This is why they react with disgust when they see a parent hand a firearm to a child.
If more people saw the positive sides of teaching children about firearms it would only help to desensitize the ignorant.
When I was on active duty infantry officer from 1980-1984 my outfit used to hold a "Family Day" with a huge BBQ and sodas and tea and we held it on a Saturday on a military firing range. It was an opportunity for the family to bring out the family firearms for a safety and shooting session. All the wives and kids older than say ten who had already gotten trained in safety got a review and went with a set of range safety officers to another range next door where they were able to fire a variety of firearms. The family weapons, to be sure but also a sample of small and larger civilian weapons and there were demonstrations of the standard infantry small arms.
But the real story was with the really little kids. You've got to understand that kids are usually VISUAL learners. You can talk to them all day and they won't internalize a bit of that data. But when they SEE and FEEL the lesson, it's a different matter. Each kid as young as age FIVE was given a HONEYDEW MELON and a marker with instructions to draw a detailed face on the melon. Eyes, ears, hair, nose, mouth, you name it. Once that was done, the children were told to imagine as hard as they could this was their BEST friend.
One by one the safety officers brought the kids to the firing line with their service member father. The melon would be placed downrange at a distance of about 21 feet. The child would walk to the line escorted by safety officers and be met by "Dad" with the weapon (usually a 1911 45 acp). The child would be wearing eye and ear protection. Dad would kneel and tell the child: THIS is what happens when you touch daddy's guns without him being present!
Then the child is allowed to gently put his hand on the forearm of dad's firing hand. This is so there is a tactile recognition of the recoil and the noise. This makes it REAL over tv or the movies. Even with the hearing protection, the kid jumps when the piece goes off but you should see their eyes as they watch that melon EXPLODE. Kids are not stupid. They ALL "got it." Forever more you could put a gun down in front of little Johnny on the kitchen table and watch that kid back up ten feet, with fierce verbal denial: NO DAD! NO! BANG BANG! The following year, young ones were either reinforcing the safety or when they got to ten they got to learn basic rifle marksmanship.
But the real story was with the really little kids. You've got to understand that kids are usually VISUAL learners. You can talk to them all day and they won't internalize a bit of that data. But when they SEE and FEEL the lesson, it's a different matter. Each kid as young as age FIVE was given a HONEYDEW MELON and a marker with instructions to draw a detailed face on the melon. Eyes, ears, hair, nose, mouth, you name it. Once that was done, the children were told to imagine as hard as they could this was their BEST friend.
One by one the safety officers brought the kids to the firing line with their service member father. The melon would be placed downrange at a distance of about 21 feet. The child would walk to the line escorted by safety officers and be met by "Dad" with the weapon (usually a 1911 45 acp). The child would be wearing eye and ear protection. Dad would kneel and tell the child: THIS is what happens when you touch daddy's guns without him being present!
Then the child is allowed to gently put his hand on the forearm of dad's firing hand. This is so there is a tactile recognition of the recoil and the noise. This makes it REAL over tv or the movies. Even with the hearing protection, the kid jumps when the piece goes off but you should see their eyes as they watch that melon EXPLODE. Kids are not stupid. They ALL "got it." Forever more you could put a gun down in front of little Johnny on the kitchen table and watch that kid back up ten feet, with fierce verbal denial: NO DAD! NO! BANG BANG! The following year, young ones were either reinforcing the safety or when they got to ten they got to learn basic rifle marksmanship.
Wow. The irrationality displayed by some folks in this thread made me double-check the URL. I thought I was on Paul Helmke's blog.
I really enjoyed the bit about AR-15s being dangerous because, well, they're AR15s!!!! (gasp!) As if a Mini-14 or M1A are safer.
I also found it hysterical that there IS a magical age at which kids become responsible with guns. And that age applies to all children.
I liked how many posters disregarded the mother's presence and control of the rifle. Some made it sound like the child was a conscript in some KKK militia and was firing Ma Deuce at a school bus.
And since it was so funny the first time around, I'll repeat it!
I really enjoyed the bit about AR-15s being dangerous because, well, they're AR15s!!!! (gasp!) As if a Mini-14 or M1A are safer.
I also found it hysterical that there IS a magical age at which kids become responsible with guns. And that age applies to all children.
I liked how many posters disregarded the mother's presence and control of the rifle. Some made it sound like the child was a conscript in some KKK militia and was firing Ma Deuce at a school bus.
And since it was so funny the first time around, I'll repeat it!
Owning guns does not make you "pro-gun." Disparaging someone else's choice of weapon, especially based on its cosmetic appearance, is pretty low road and is rather anti-gun. Ad hominem attacks 'beginning with the letter "A," but this time synonymous with "rectum." ' are also low road.
hankdatank1362
Member
My son is three years old. He already knows how to work the bolt and activate/deactivate the safety on my .30-'06 (not that I'd let him shoot it)...
That said, I don't think he's quite ready maturity-wise to start shooting. I've got abit more work to do on the safety aspect. I'm thinking he will be ready for a BB gun by his 4th birthday in May of 2008, and, if he does well with that, a single-shot .22 of his own by next Christmas.
Not saying a 3-year-old shouldn't be shooting. I know many that are, umm, more focused and less rambunctious than mine that should do just fine. I just have a little more work to do with my son before he gets some real trigger time.
Oh, and "3 year olds shouldn't be shooting ARs!" ....
Statements like that lead me to believe that the person who said it has no children... or ARs, for that matter... else they would know better.
Did someone say "fudd?"
I didn't. But I heard it too.
That said, I don't think he's quite ready maturity-wise to start shooting. I've got abit more work to do on the safety aspect. I'm thinking he will be ready for a BB gun by his 4th birthday in May of 2008, and, if he does well with that, a single-shot .22 of his own by next Christmas.
Not saying a 3-year-old shouldn't be shooting. I know many that are, umm, more focused and less rambunctious than mine that should do just fine. I just have a little more work to do with my son before he gets some real trigger time.
Oh, and "3 year olds shouldn't be shooting ARs!" ....
Statements like that lead me to believe that the person who said it has no children... or ARs, for that matter... else they would know better.
Did someone say "fudd?"
I didn't. But I heard it too.
Ed Ames
Member
That melon story is horrible. Nice way to create a generation of anti-gun kids.
American_Pit_Bull
Member
+1
It is hard for a child to grasp the destructive force that a firearm is capable of without some sort of demonstration. Telling a child about the potential damage is far less effective than showing them something in person.
jfh
Member.
I was taught to shoot a .22 pump when I was five years old.
My father owned no bolt actions. I remember my father and my adult cousin coaching me extensively, with my mother looking on.
I was rigorously taught to keep my finger off the trigger until I was ready to shoot--and to always point the gun 'downrange.' There were admonitions to be careful--but I remember no comments about danger, nor fearful demonstrations. Firearms were simply a part of our family's life; my mother went duck-hunting when I was ten months old and snuggled into a backpack she wore.
The guns were kept "put away," and I never got them out. Occasionally I would want to handle the .22, and my parents would get it out and coach me, even if we weren't shooting.
I fully realize this would approach may not work with all children, but I suspect that, if I become a grandfather, I would start the child at a young age, with a .22--and if he were interested a bigger rifle, have him shoot a .223 with a .22LR conversion--i.e., an AR-15 type carbine.
Jim H.
My father owned no bolt actions. I remember my father and my adult cousin coaching me extensively, with my mother looking on.
I was rigorously taught to keep my finger off the trigger until I was ready to shoot--and to always point the gun 'downrange.' There were admonitions to be careful--but I remember no comments about danger, nor fearful demonstrations. Firearms were simply a part of our family's life; my mother went duck-hunting when I was ten months old and snuggled into a backpack she wore.
The guns were kept "put away," and I never got them out. Occasionally I would want to handle the .22, and my parents would get it out and coach me, even if we weren't shooting.
I fully realize this would approach may not work with all children, but I suspect that, if I become a grandfather, I would start the child at a young age, with a .22--and if he were interested a bigger rifle, have him shoot a .223 with a .22LR conversion--i.e., an AR-15 type carbine.
Jim H.
siglite
Member
My child saw the destructive power of firearms at an early age. He's seen nearly every deer or squirrel I've ever killed. He understood very early that it's not like TV. And that deer, or that squirrel was never getting up again.
It's almost like the melon story, but applied to a (formerly) living, breathing, creature. I think seeing the results of game shot probably drove home the danger (hence required respect) than any words I could've said, or any demo I could've given with fruit.
It's almost like the melon story, but applied to a (formerly) living, breathing, creature. I think seeing the results of game shot probably drove home the danger (hence required respect) than any words I could've said, or any demo I could've given with fruit.
jakemccoy
Member
Hi,
Even though I don't have a real problem with the video, I may or may not do it personally. It depends on the particular child.
Generally, I wouldn't use an AR15 to teach firearms to any child who doesn't understand death. If there's any confusion as to what to do, I think that's a reasonably rule of thumb.
I'm not a psychologist. I don't know at what age the understanding of death occurs. For my nephew, I think it occurred at 10 years old. For my niece, I think it occurred at 7 years old.
Regards,
Jake McCoy
Even though I don't have a real problem with the video, I may or may not do it personally. It depends on the particular child.
Generally, I wouldn't use an AR15 to teach firearms to any child who doesn't understand death. If there's any confusion as to what to do, I think that's a reasonably rule of thumb.
I'm not a psychologist. I don't know at what age the understanding of death occurs. For my nephew, I think it occurred at 10 years old. For my niece, I think it occurred at 7 years old.
Regards,
Jake McCoy
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Ed Ames
Member
To those who thought the melon story was cool...
Most kids pretend really well. They have good imaginations and they haven't spent years training themselves not to use those imaginations. When you tell a bunch of kids to really really pretend that something is "your best friend" most are going to do so. They are going to pretend that the mellon is Matt or Paul or Steve or Alice or whoever their best friend is. Then they are going to participate as dad splatters Alice's head like a melon.
I don't think that's a cool way to introduce kids to guns. Sorry.
Call me a blissninny or whatever but I think walking them through a graphic depiction of the murder of their best friend should be pretty far down the list of lessons. Somewhere right around chaining the family pet up to a target frame actually. Yes, guns can kill. Yes, the kids need to be aware of that. There are better ways to teach that lesson.
Or maybe I'm weird. I never participated in any simulated murders but I never had any trouble understanding that guns could kill.
Most kids pretend really well. They have good imaginations and they haven't spent years training themselves not to use those imaginations. When you tell a bunch of kids to really really pretend that something is "your best friend" most are going to do so. They are going to pretend that the mellon is Matt or Paul or Steve or Alice or whoever their best friend is. Then they are going to participate as dad splatters Alice's head like a melon.
I don't think that's a cool way to introduce kids to guns. Sorry.
Call me a blissninny or whatever but I think walking them through a graphic depiction of the murder of their best friend should be pretty far down the list of lessons. Somewhere right around chaining the family pet up to a target frame actually. Yes, guns can kill. Yes, the kids need to be aware of that. There are better ways to teach that lesson.
Or maybe I'm weird. I never participated in any simulated murders but I never had any trouble understanding that guns could kill.
jakemccoy
Member
Off subject kinda…
Regarding the melon story, what would you do if a kid grinned or laughed?
That would be fvckin’ creepy.
Regarding the melon story, what would you do if a kid grinned or laughed?
That would be fvckin’ creepy.
BobbyQuickdraw
Member
I know how to fix this. Make it illegal for children to own or operate guns! What business does a child have with a gun? I say we ban all children from using guns until they are of a responsible age. What age? Oh well clearly 8 is too young, they're too small. And at 13 they are entering puberty which makes them irrational! And at 16 they have cars to focus on and 18 they're at college and there may be illegal activity. So no guns until 21.
--- Obviously, I'm being sarcastic.
That was perfectly fine by me. Eye and ear protection. The father instructed him to keep his eyes down range. Small caliber weapon. The outrage here really makes me sad.
Rights exist at every age - the only thing that trumps them is your parents rules (at that age, at least). So both the Constitution (it protects all ages) and his Parents say he can shoot a gun, so he can. Simple.
I was shooting .243s and 30-06s and 12 and 20 Gauge shotguns at age 12. I loved it.
--- Obviously, I'm being sarcastic.
That was perfectly fine by me. Eye and ear protection. The father instructed him to keep his eyes down range. Small caliber weapon. The outrage here really makes me sad.
Rights exist at every age - the only thing that trumps them is your parents rules (at that age, at least). So both the Constitution (it protects all ages) and his Parents say he can shoot a gun, so he can. Simple.
I was shooting .243s and 30-06s and 12 and 20 Gauge shotguns at age 12. I loved it.
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