ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Write The Book
* Sigh *
It's threads like these that remind me why I say that.
Write the book, pax.
Really.
* Sigh *
It's threads like these that remind me why I say that.
Write the book, pax.
Really.
How young is too young?
- Thread starter WaltonS
- Start date
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Ed Ames
Member
I agree with both of those statements. I just think they serve very different purposes. You teach your children for their safety. You lock up the guns for your security. Their safety not just because guns are out there... because there are all sorts of dangerous things in the world and they need experience dealing with them while under your guidance. They'll surely face more than a few once they leave home. Your security because there are all sorts of dangerous situations, including burglars and uninvited guests accessing your firearms without your permission or knowledge, and you need to control those situations to the extent possible.
One lesson you should teach is the importance of locking guns. That includes the why of locking them. Not "I'm locking this up so you can't get it," but, "We are locking this up so that nobody can get to it without permission." It's the same lesson they learn about locking their bicycles, or locking the house when they leave, or locking the car.
I agree guns should be locked when not in use. However, I don't agree that it's a necessary part of child gun safety. Children are remarkably capable beings who can be extremely responsible from very early ages. It wasn't that long ago that a typical 8 year old was expected to be an active and productive part of the family, working, hunting, and doing other necessary tasks without supervision. Human development hasn't changed -- just our expectations.
So, in my experience, if the children have been educated there is no reason to assert that unlocked guns "lying around" should be locked up for child safety reasons. Of course I'm not talking about 18 month olds here but it doesn't take long for children to develop. By the time a kid is 6 it would be more surprising if they *couldn't* correctly handle the situation (which to me means either leaving the gun alone or securing it properly).
That isn't the NRA party line of course... but family experience has raised questions about the "eddie eagle" party line. When my brother and his friend found a gun they went Eddy and told an adult. Told several in fact. The problem is that, somewhere along the line, the gun disappeared and some of the adults started accusing the kids. My brother got into trouble at school and with authoritay over the issue. Eddy is naive and doesn't know the real world. Eddy gives bad advice. When I was my brother's age my father told me the correct real-world way to handle the situation: If other kids find a gun, leave and tell a trusted adult. If you find a gun and nobody else sees it, secure the gun and bring it to a parent. You don't leave a gun lying around to be found by someone who doesn't know about guns (or who may use it badly) -- that's irresponsible.
If your kid doesn't know enough to secure a gun that is lying around the house before other kids find it, do they really know about guns?
Ed,
I think we're mostly on the same page.
Good point. With my kids, I'm fortunate in that my boys are near the same ages and travel together a lot. When we discussed that same basic scenario with them, a few years back now, the kids all agreed that the smart thing to do would be for one kid to stay with the gun and keep people from touching it, while another kid went for an adult. The kids suggested that solution themselves, as we were talking about what-ifs.
Another what-if we talked about, as the kids got into the teen years, was what to do if THEY were the responsible adult (babysitting, or just being the oldest/most responsible person in the house when a little kid found a gun). What then? By that time, they all knew the basic steps to unloading a firearm, but all of us were unhappy with the notion of trying to unload an unfamiliar gun with an unknown manual of arms. So the kids and I decided that a good way to handle that kind of situation might be to carefully take the loaded gun into the bathroom, leave it on the counter, and lock the bathroom door behind them when they came out. That would keep the gun secured until someone who knew the manual of arms could come deal with it.
There are lots of similar situations that might come up as you talk to your kids, especially as they grow. But we're a long way afield from whether it's okay to let a three-year-old fire a gun under close adult supervision!
pax
I think we're mostly on the same page.
Good point. With my kids, I'm fortunate in that my boys are near the same ages and travel together a lot. When we discussed that same basic scenario with them, a few years back now, the kids all agreed that the smart thing to do would be for one kid to stay with the gun and keep people from touching it, while another kid went for an adult. The kids suggested that solution themselves, as we were talking about what-ifs.Another what-if we talked about, as the kids got into the teen years, was what to do if THEY were the responsible adult (babysitting, or just being the oldest/most responsible person in the house when a little kid found a gun). What then? By that time, they all knew the basic steps to unloading a firearm, but all of us were unhappy with the notion of trying to unload an unfamiliar gun with an unknown manual of arms. So the kids and I decided that a good way to handle that kind of situation might be to carefully take the loaded gun into the bathroom, leave it on the counter, and lock the bathroom door behind them when they came out. That would keep the gun secured until someone who knew the manual of arms could come deal with it.
There are lots of similar situations that might come up as you talk to your kids, especially as they grow. But we're a long way afield from whether it's okay to let a three-year-old fire a gun under close adult supervision!
pax
Ed Ames
Member
Yeah, getting far afield.
But... regarding one kid staying by the gun...My father's advice was that I wasn't to "keep" anybody from doing anything. It went something like, "never get into a fight over a gun, never try to pull a gun away from someone, never count on being able to keep other kids from getting the gun... secure it or get away from it, and securing means you don't tell anyone, don't show anyone, you hide it and leave in case another kid saw it and is coming back." I'm sure he had a vision that I can easily see today: two little gits (er...kids) playing tug-o-war over and with a gun. Not an unlikely scenario if one little kid tries to play "guard" because (s)he knows the "right way" to handle the situation.
When I was growing up the "cop shoots kid for pointing a comb" stories were very common so there was no question of leaving a gun in plain sight.
By the time I was in my teens there was no question that I would secure any unsecured firearms I encountered. I may not have known how to unload every gun but a loaded gun in a paper bag is a lot safer than an unloaded gun being waved around by a kid.
But... regarding one kid staying by the gun...My father's advice was that I wasn't to "keep" anybody from doing anything. It went something like, "never get into a fight over a gun, never try to pull a gun away from someone, never count on being able to keep other kids from getting the gun... secure it or get away from it, and securing means you don't tell anyone, don't show anyone, you hide it and leave in case another kid saw it and is coming back." I'm sure he had a vision that I can easily see today: two little gits (er...kids) playing tug-o-war over and with a gun. Not an unlikely scenario if one little kid tries to play "guard" because (s)he knows the "right way" to handle the situation.
When I was growing up the "cop shoots kid for pointing a comb" stories were very common so there was no question of leaving a gun in plain sight.
By the time I was in my teens there was no question that I would secure any unsecured firearms I encountered. I may not have known how to unload every gun but a loaded gun in a paper bag is a lot safer than an unloaded gun being waved around by a kid.
jakemccoy
Member
Ed wrote:
I appreciate the points you brought up. At the same time, I think you may be splitting hairs here. There are always scenarios and counter-scenarios to prove or disprove a good basic principle.
The general rule that the child (say 5 or younger) should not touch the gun is better than the general rule that the child should secure the gun. Of course, exceptions apply, depending on the particular kids, etc. However, the general rule should remain the same.
As has been noted, kids make mistakes. All the kid has to do is allow something to pull the trigger while the kid is handling the gun, then "BOOM!" At that point, the kid doesn't take on liability as if they're an adult. The gun owner, parent or whoever is going to be taking on some liability for what happens.
I appreciate the points you brought up. At the same time, I think you may be splitting hairs here. There are always scenarios and counter-scenarios to prove or disprove a good basic principle.
The general rule that the child (say 5 or younger) should not touch the gun is better than the general rule that the child should secure the gun. Of course, exceptions apply, depending on the particular kids, etc. However, the general rule should remain the same.
As has been noted, kids make mistakes. All the kid has to do is allow something to pull the trigger while the kid is handling the gun, then "BOOM!" At that point, the kid doesn't take on liability as if they're an adult. The gun owner, parent or whoever is going to be taking on some liability for what happens.
siglite
Member
You know, I'd trust my kid now to clear a gun and then get my attention. Would I have trusted him to do that at five? Probably not. Back then he didn't understand the actions of enough weapons to do it. But even then, if he did have an ND while trying it, I bet no one would get hurt. That kid has always been the most muzzle-direction conscious person I've ever known in my life. He's yelled at ME for pointing a disassembled barrel around the room. *grin* I had to just go "yeah, you're right." I wanted to keep it simple. I didn't want to get into a discussion about when a gun's safe and when it's not. For him, the hard-fast rule of muzzle direction should just apply 100% of the time.
Would I have wanted him clearing and securing a gun at 5? Probably not. Would anyone have been hurt if it went off while he was trying to do it? Probably not. Would I expect him to be able to do it now? Yep. (He's 10.)
Would I have wanted him clearing and securing a gun at 5? Probably not. Would anyone have been hurt if it went off while he was trying to do it? Probably not. Would I expect him to be able to do it now? Yep. (He's 10.)
Ed Ames
Member
Shrug. I lived most of my life in California so obviously the concept of adult liability for a child's actions is quite familiar. An unsupervised child firing a gun in a back yard (with nobody hurt) can result in criminal charges for the gun owner. Still, liability isn't my biggest concern and the liability issue is about the adult's security, not the child's safety.
I don't know general rules. I've only dealt with a few kids and most of the general rules I've heard fit them as well as doll clothes (that is to say not at all) one way or another.
What I do know is that somewhere between 18 months and 18 years they are going to have to learn to deal with those issues on their own and the parent's job is to put them on the right path. How you do that (to tie it back to the starting video) may well include showing them how to shoot when they are three, or teaching them to secure a firearm when they are 17.
The critial mistake is underpreperation. If you over prepare the kid and she knows exactly what to do but never has to do it, that's fine. If you under prepare the kid and she doesn't know what to do when she needs to you've failed.
I don't know general rules. I've only dealt with a few kids and most of the general rules I've heard fit them as well as doll clothes (that is to say not at all) one way or another.
What I do know is that somewhere between 18 months and 18 years they are going to have to learn to deal with those issues on their own and the parent's job is to put them on the right path. How you do that (to tie it back to the starting video) may well include showing them how to shoot when they are three, or teaching them to secure a firearm when they are 17.
The critial mistake is underpreperation. If you over prepare the kid and she knows exactly what to do but never has to do it, that's fine. If you under prepare the kid and she doesn't know what to do when she needs to you've failed.
Beatnik
Member
I combed every inch of my attic when I was putting up insulation, and all I found was the thing you're much more likely to find...
Porn.
(For the humor impaired, I know it's possible... but nobody should get their hopes up.)
Ed Ames
Member
LOL... I've been checking attics ever since and I've never found much more than rat droppings and irritated skin (from the fiberglass).
It was the always sad, "my late husband owned guns before we were married but I thought he sold them all in the '60s," made even sadder by the fact that some of the guns were literally new-in-box and never fired guns from the '80s ... well into their marriage. Someone got a new in box never fired S&W model 19 with the price tag still attached. Not me. The husband purchased at least three guns during their marriage (plus had another 4-5 that were from the 50s and earlier) and never told wife or kids about them. If she had sold the house (which her kids had been telling her to do) the guns would've stayed to be found by... someone.
It was the always sad, "my late husband owned guns before we were married but I thought he sold them all in the '60s," made even sadder by the fact that some of the guns were literally new-in-box and never fired guns from the '80s ... well into their marriage. Someone got a new in box never fired S&W model 19 with the price tag still attached. Not me.
The husband purchased at least three guns during their marriage (plus had another 4-5 that were from the 50s and earlier) and never told wife or kids about them. If she had sold the house (which her kids had been telling her to do) the guns would've stayed to be found by... someone.Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
No kids in the house. My guns are in a safe.
But I was raised in a day when gun safes and trigger locks were unknown. My father's long guns were kept in a gun rack that sat on the floor. The ammunition was in the rack's drawer from my earliest memories which were at age four.
I had been hunting with my Dad and had viewed animals he'd shot. I had shot the Browning Light Twelve. I didn't view firearms as play material...at all.
I can't remember ever touching a firearm without adult supervision until I had received permission to hunt unsupervised at age twelve.
Don't get me wrong. My point is not that locking guns up is unnecessary. My point is that it is possible to teach very young children to leave firearms alone unless supervised by an adult.
But I was raised in a day when gun safes and trigger locks were unknown. My father's long guns were kept in a gun rack that sat on the floor. The ammunition was in the rack's drawer from my earliest memories which were at age four.
I had been hunting with my Dad and had viewed animals he'd shot. I had shot the Browning Light Twelve. I didn't view firearms as play material...at all.
I can't remember ever touching a firearm without adult supervision until I had received permission to hunt unsupervised at age twelve.
Don't get me wrong. My point is not that locking guns up is unnecessary. My point is that it is possible to teach very young children to leave firearms alone unless supervised by an adult.
Well, folks, it's been nice knowing you. I'd say "you were all right, you're all right, you're infinitely better than me" but that's just not the case.
I said in my second post in this thread that my issue was not ONLY the weapon in question but the age.
In my THIRD post I pointed out that I'm a little uneasy with the concept of letting children handle weapons, designed to kill.
For the record (and for everyone who said I "obviously never had children", I have helped raise a little girl, since she was born until she was five. She wasn't mine but I had a large role in her upbringing.
The fact that just by stating that I wasn't too fond of the actions depicted in the video resulted in five pages of questioning my rationale, not to mention some thinly-veiled insults and a few people comparing me to their favorite anti-gun activist sealed the deal, though. It's also sort of nice that I reported my own post requesting that this thread be closed, but it seems that went largely ignored, with not even a single PM in response.
This place is full of too many idiots for it to be worth my while. Not all of you are bad. Some people did a heck of a job welcoming me but largely, this thread alone is enough to turn me away from the rest of the community.
Maybe I've just got thin skin but voicing an opinion and asking what others thought isn't a request for a one-sided pissing match. And I'm justified in saying that it was indeed one-sided, since I've only posted here, and on page one. To some of you, 'twas nice knowing you.
To the rest... well, I haven't really got much to say for you.
I said in my second post in this thread that my issue was not ONLY the weapon in question but the age.
In my THIRD post I pointed out that I'm a little uneasy with the concept of letting children handle weapons, designed to kill.
For the record (and for everyone who said I "obviously never had children", I have helped raise a little girl, since she was born until she was five. She wasn't mine but I had a large role in her upbringing.
The fact that just by stating that I wasn't too fond of the actions depicted in the video resulted in five pages of questioning my rationale, not to mention some thinly-veiled insults and a few people comparing me to their favorite anti-gun activist sealed the deal, though. It's also sort of nice that I reported my own post requesting that this thread be closed, but it seems that went largely ignored, with not even a single PM in response.
This place is full of too many idiots for it to be worth my while. Not all of you are bad. Some people did a heck of a job welcoming me but largely, this thread alone is enough to turn me away from the rest of the community.
Maybe I've just got thin skin but voicing an opinion and asking what others thought isn't a request for a one-sided pissing match. And I'm justified in saying that it was indeed one-sided, since I've only posted here, and on page one. To some of you, 'twas nice knowing you.
To the rest... well, I haven't really got much to say for you.
honestly, we can all sit here and tell stories of how young we all were when we first learned to shoot. And everybody will have been at a different age. Ya know why? Because your parents knew you the best and they judged when and how you should be introduced to guns. The same holds true today. If you were made to wait until an older age to handle a gun that is (most likely) because your parents didn't think you were ready for it (whether you think you were ready or not) Just because you weren't ready at a younger age, doesn't mean someone else isn't. The ONLY person/people qualified to decide when a child is ready for a firearm is that childs parent(s). As far as the type of firearm, what does it matter? If everyone is practicing safe procedures and the parents truely believe the child is ready, I don't care if it's a cap gun or a bazooka.
There seems to be a certain amount of "anti-ness" here at THR but I do invite anyone with anti tendencies to start a thread, and call for me.
I will engage them in debate, and give them a good thrashing/embarrassment if need to be.
I will engage them in debate, and give them a good thrashing/embarrassment if need to be.
03Shadowbob
Member
Is this too young? And OMG it's an assualt rifle
legal disclaimer....no weapons were loaded, the weapons were on safe, the weapons stay in a RSC, no animals have been lab tested, blah blah blah
actually if I did post the picture I am sure some anti on THR would send it to CNN then my kid's face would be posted all over the world. No thanks. Dang anti's ruin everything. :banghead:
legal disclaimer....no weapons were loaded, the weapons were on safe, the weapons stay in a RSC, no animals have been lab tested, blah blah blah
actually if I did post the picture I am sure some anti on THR would send it to CNN then my kid's face would be posted all over the world. No thanks. Dang anti's ruin everything. :banghead:
You did condemn the ar-15 as being too scary a gun for children while other guns would be fine. Do you blame people for calling them like they see them?
We've probably all had a thread we started not go the way we hoped, you take your licks and learn something from it. It wouldn't be much of a forum if the conversation was your way or not at all.
It seems like the THR was quite civil and welcoming even if they disagreed with you. You came to a strongly pro-gun community and judged a gun based on its appearnce. You'll hear some people tell you why thats wrong. And I don't believe any of them called you an idiot or any other names in doing it.
Ed Ames
Member
A week or two ago someone posted a thread around here about writing a news outfit to have them change the word "weapon" in a news report to "firearm".
I posted in that thread wondering if such activism was really doing the pro-gun cause any favors.
I think this thread's latest turn, especially this:
A fencer's epé is a weapon. So is a free pistol. Both are used in olympic sporting events. Both can be used to kill. Both were derived from military weapons.
You know what? Exactly the same can be said of an AR-15. Well, maybe "olympic" must be replaced with "international"... I don't know. The same can broadly be said of a Churchill shotgun that costs $80,000 or a pietta C&B revolver that costs $200...
I can understand not buying a rifle because you find it ugly. I can't understand trying claim it isn't a weapon because you think it's attractive, or that it's only a weapon if you find it ugly or scary or dislike something else about how it looks. Isn't that exactly what the anti-gun people do with "assault rifle" bans? Isn't that exactly the sort of trap they'd love for us to fall into? Divide and conquer, right?
Why let them do that to us? Why not have the courage to acknowledge that we own weapons. We want to own weapons. We like weapons. Maybe we own them for sporting purposes. Maybe we own them for defensive purposes. Maybe we own them for some other reason like history or a desire for preparedness... but we own weapons.
Trying to deny that makes us look foolish and plays into the anti-gunner's long term plans.
I posted in that thread wondering if such activism was really doing the pro-gun cause any favors.
I think this thread's latest turn, especially this:
shows how such efforts can and will be used against us.
A fencer's epé is a weapon. So is a free pistol. Both are used in olympic sporting events. Both can be used to kill. Both were derived from military weapons.
You know what? Exactly the same can be said of an AR-15. Well, maybe "olympic" must be replaced with "international"... I don't know. The same can broadly be said of a Churchill shotgun that costs $80,000 or a pietta C&B revolver that costs $200...
I can understand not buying a rifle because you find it ugly. I can't understand trying claim it isn't a weapon because you think it's attractive, or that it's only a weapon if you find it ugly or scary or dislike something else about how it looks. Isn't that exactly what the anti-gun people do with "assault rifle" bans? Isn't that exactly the sort of trap they'd love for us to fall into? Divide and conquer, right?
Why let them do that to us? Why not have the courage to acknowledge that we own weapons. We want to own weapons. We like weapons. Maybe we own them for sporting purposes. Maybe we own them for defensive purposes. Maybe we own them for some other reason like history or a desire for preparedness... but we own weapons.
Trying to deny that makes us look foolish and plays into the anti-gunner's long term plans.
03Shadowbob
Member
Soybomb,
You are right. Everyone was as civil here as Art's grammaw would allow. Now let the OP go and post this at sksboards or glocktalk and watch the beatings begin. I didn't even know that gun owner/activist was synonymous with thin skin???
Last edited:
Jimmy Newman
Member
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Boy, I'm sorry I didn't see this thread earlier.
I started going hunting basically as soon as I could walk - of course, at that point, I didn't carry a gun. At least not a real one - there are some pretty cute pictures of me with our big black lab and a plastic ping pong ball gun from about 2 years old. I got started on real guns late 3/early 4 years old, a little chipmunk single shot .22 bolt rifle. It's lighter than an AR, but that's its main advantage. At about that time I started taking a BB gun when we would go hunting. By maybe eight years old I was hunting for real, mostly squirrels with a .22 and doves with a 20ga. Winchester 1300 youth model pump. I killed a deer on my first real deer hunt at age 11 (my dad shot his first deer at age 9). At that point I also could go dove hunting by myself if I wanted to. By 13, I was not only hunting with my parents (or walking through a field by myself if I felt like it) I was also allowed to walk back to the car and drive it up to pick up my parents when we went quail hunting. Incidentally, I also qualified distinguished expert in NRA 4-position smallbore rifle around this time (may've been just after I turned 14). I also got my first pistol, a Browning Nomad .22 that a family friend gave me, around that time and after learning to shoot it I carried it around while hunting, too.
And I've never shot anyone, either.
I started going hunting basically as soon as I could walk - of course, at that point, I didn't carry a gun. At least not a real one - there are some pretty cute pictures of me with our big black lab and a plastic ping pong ball gun from about 2 years old. I got started on real guns late 3/early 4 years old, a little chipmunk single shot .22 bolt rifle. It's lighter than an AR, but that's its main advantage
. At about that time I started taking a BB gun when we would go hunting. By maybe eight years old I was hunting for real, mostly squirrels with a .22 and doves with a 20ga. Winchester 1300 youth model pump. I killed a deer on my first real deer hunt at age 11 (my dad shot his first deer at age 9). At that point I also could go dove hunting by myself if I wanted to. By 13, I was not only hunting with my parents (or walking through a field by myself if I felt like it) I was also allowed to walk back to the car and drive it up to pick up my parents when we went quail hunting. Incidentally, I also qualified distinguished expert in NRA 4-position smallbore rifle around this time (may've been just after I turned 14). I also got my first pistol, a Browning Nomad .22 that a family friend gave me, around that time and after learning to shoot it I carried it around while hunting, too.And I've never shot anyone, either.
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