How young is too young?

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Some of you seriously need to get a grip.

If you can't tell the difference between an AR15 chambered in a pistol caliber, and a pistol-caliber full-auto buzzgun, you probably ought not be opining on the matter.

That said, it wouldn't be my first choice for teaching a child to shoot. A .22 is the best choice, but whether the configuration is a Nylon 66, Anschütz Biathlon gun, 10/22, or an AR with a .22 conversion is really nothing more than a matter of taste.

The kid was obviously in no danger, and while it may be a completely valid point that he's too young to understand what's going on, the model of firearm will have no bearing on his understanding of the issue.

Quite frankly, since the sunset of the ban, AR15's have gone completely mainstream, and I fully expect that their popularity, due in part to their ease of use and modularity, will continue to grow.
 
Many posts in this thread are based on the fallacious assumption that age equals responsibility.

Not true. There are many "children" that I would have no problems with if they had a firearm, but there are also many "adults" that I don't want to be on the same side of the Earth with a gun.
 
Nightwing, are you in the Macon Bass Pro? Looks like one of the used gun racks there. BTW, I think that children should work up on small air guns starting when they become mature enough to be safe, not three.
 
Ear protection.
Eye protection.
9mm rifle.
One round in the chamber.
Dad giving instruction.
Mom holding the foregrip the entire time.

I would likely have gone with a single shot .22 rifle, but I fail to see the problem.
 
I fired a Browning Light Twelve when I was four years old. It changed my life:D I was given my own shotgun at the age of eight. An old JC Higgnins bolt action twelve gauge. Had access to the ammunition too. I was hunting unsupervised at the age of twelve.

I don't have pictures or video of the event I'm about the relate. I dearly wish I did. Nicole Mobley, skinny five year old girl. Ear and eye protection on. I'm kneeling beside her. She's been watching and listening for several days as her older brothers are being taught basics of safe firearm handling by me. She's about to shoot a firearm for the very first time-a 9mm Uzi modified to selective fire back in 1986 just before the cutoff date. I'm kneeling beside her with my hands about an inch from the weapon ready to grab it if she falters for whatever reason. Nicole fires it up and burns through the 32 round magazine. The gun runs dry, her finger comes off the trigger and out of the trigger guard. I'm worrried about her grin as it might decapitate her.

That little girl is twenty five today and drop dead gorgeous. She walks by at the range and jaws drop. She's a durn good shot and a gunny. It all started that day. She never looked back.

Her two brothers were 'problem' children. Defiant little hell raisers. I told their mother in their presence that I would use any means necessary to prevent an unsafe action by them with a firearm in their hands. I told them that the very first time I did not receive instant obedience during our activities, that the activity would end at that point and I would take them home. Those 'problem' boys never deviated from safe handling one time on the range. They never failed to obey me instantly. During all of our activities together, I only had to stop and take them home one time. And that was not a firearms activity.

I had an advantage over their mother, though. I was taking them on activities they thought were great and really, really didn't want to screw up.
 
I first shot a rifle at 3. it was a lever action 22
I shot a 20gu shotgun at 4. My brother held it and I pulled the trigger
I shot a 12gu at 10, at clays.
i shot a .50BMG at 14
I shot a full auto M16 at 15


I don't have kids, but if and when I do, I will teach them shooting as soon as they are old enough to get bored with legos.
 
Karrot that video is much worse.

They clearly didn't explain to him how to properly hold or shoot the rifle and started him on full auto.

A child that age should be taught properly first, because he is fully capable of handling that rifle.
 
It's disgusting because of the age and the weapon in question. I mean, if it were a more "traditional" rifle, it wouldn't have been quite so bad.
If you wanna teach your kid how to shoot, fine, but you DON'T put an AR-15 in a child's hands!
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Why are you disgusted by black rifles but fine with wood stocks? That seems more like the views of an anti that sees black rifles as terrible tools of death because they look scary.
 
I believe that the more videos of children safely shooting guns, the better... The only time that some hear about children and firearms is after a tragedy occurs. This is why they react with disgust when they see a parent hand a firearm to a child.
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I agree with you. But, in this video the kid wasn't really learning anything. Didn't probably even understand what was going on.

Videos of good kids demonstrating good gun handling are boring. That's why there are so many self-made videos on YouTube of young jerks with guns acting in ways that most adults might consider irresponsible or dangerous.

K
 
I had the pleasure to run our very own Barbara's nephew through an ACTS match this weekend. I think he's 11? I've ran grown men through that I won't RO for again. No problems with little Alex. Keep in mind this isn't shooting from a bench either. He ran the .223 AR just fine. He can't wait until he turns 21 to get his CCW.


My boy just turned 6 and since he was 2 the the training started. At first it's "Don't touch", while a gun is out. Then it works up to safe handling, and what can happen if you shoot someone. He is always welcome to look at any of the guns, whenever he asks. At first it was all the time. Now not so much. But if he catches me with one, he wants to check it out. I leave them laying around the house every now and then, just to see if he remembers his Eddie Eagle videos. He always comes running to tell me a gun is out. The first time he shot was when he was 4. He was the youngest one at the "Family Firearms Day" put on every year.

My 2 year old daughter is starting her training now too. I think she might be sharper than the boy. Maybe we'll get her to safely shoot the AR by 3 too, so some of you can freak out again over nothing.


Those of you without kids, really have no idea what they are capable of. Would any of you believe a 2 year who doesn't speak clearly, and isn't potty trained, knows a lot of her colors, and letters? Kids want to do the same things their parents are doing. And they usually lose interest very quickly. Much like the child in the video. So if you don't have any kids, you really don't know what they can do. Just because you have been around them, doesn't mean anything either. You need to be with them all the time.
 
I know an awful lot of people who have never had children, nor lived with them, who have very strong opinions about how other people should raise their children. People who have a bit more experience with kids tend to have more realistic assessments of what children are able to understand, and when.
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I understand your point, but when was the last time you met a 3 year old that could properly handle any type of firearm? My opinion is that if you can't properly handle it then you shouldnt shoot it.
 
Call me a blissninny or whatever but I think walking them through a graphic depiction of the murder of their best friend should be pretty far down the list of lessons. Somewhere right around chaining the family pet up to a target frame actually. Yes, guns can kill. Yes, the kids need to be aware of that. There are better ways to teach that lesson.
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What do you suggest? I'm not trying to be flippant, just curious.
 
snow,

Interesting theory.

My theory is that you start educating the children from the time they are old enough to walk and talk, and that you defuse their curiousity about firearms at the earliest possible opportunity -- while keeping the guns locked up with locks designed to keep an adult thief out, because kids can be really, really sneaky when they are curious about something mom & dad have forbidden. So you lock up the guns and begin defusing the curiousity as absolutely soon as you possibly can.

I've tested my theory on five children of my own and countless relatives' and friends' children. My youngest three sons (then ages 4, 5, and 6 -- or possibly as old as ages 5, 6, and 7, memory fades!) had all been to the range at least a couple of times before the day they found a firearm as they climbed, unsupervised, into the back of my friend's car.

Kid 1 (the youngest): "Hey guys, don't get in, there's a gun back here."
Kid 2: "Nuh uh, mom wouldn't have sent us out here if ..."
Kid 1: "There is! LOOK!"
Kid 2: "It's probably a toy. Mom wouldn't have told us to go get in the car if there was a REAL gun."
Kid 3 (the oldest): "Don't you remember? If we don't KNOW it's a toy, we gotta treat it like a real gun. Come on!"

And then all three of them came running back into the house, eager to tell me what good kids they were.

Now you can make all sorts of excuses and explanations about how terribly dangerous it is to teach your children about firearms from early ages, or to let a young child fire a gun under very close and careful supervision, but the fact is that I know those particular children. I know how they thought at that age, the types of trouble they got into and the types of trouble they (usually) avoided. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that if I had not already taken them to the range, if firearms were not already something they'd already handled and fired, those three active little boys would have been all over that gun like white on rice. And a tragedy would very likely have been the result.

When you get around to having kids, teach them.

pax
 
I agree with you. But, in this video the kid wasn't really learning anything. Didn't probably even understand what was going on.
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So? Parents do lots of pointless things with kids. Some get their kicks by dressing a child too young to even know what baseball is in a baseball uniform and apparently some like to pretend like their kid is really out shooting. It still doesn't begin to address my confusion as to why the guy was completely horrified it was an ar15.
 
OK - I read the first post, read all the replies, looked at the video, looked at some other videos, re-read the first post and where did it get me?

I am surprised at half of the replies here at how negative they are. I would have thought people would be for the education of our youth in responsible firearms handling.

My son first shot a 22 pistol a month ago at age 5. He gripped it properly, kept his finger off the trigger until he was ready to fire, and kept his rounds on the paper. He wore proper eye and hearing protection (despite his initial protests) and I stood behind him, helping him maintain the proper stance, proper grip (my hands supporting his), trigger and muzzle discipline, and reloaded for him.

Granted my son is a bit older than that in the video, and was a bit more involved, but I don't see a whole lot of difference in the exercises. I imagine that family in the video is a lot like mine and is taking a proactive approach to training their kids to be safe and responsible around firearms as well as to enjoy shooting them.

There are real examples of stupidity with firearms on videos all over the place, committed by people of all ages, but I don't count this as one of them. Why don't some of those get some attention?
 
What do you suggest?
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Totally depends on the kid.

In my case my father told "gun isn't loaded" stories including the story of why his father didn't like guns. That one ended with a kid's stomach hemorrhaging blood and chunks of undigested food. True story too. No, not a pleasant story... but I got it. Imagination worked just fine thank you. Most importantly it didn't involve me or anyone I knew intentionally murdering (even in effigy) any friends or pets.

But arguably it wasn't necessary. I can't recall a time when I ever felt comfortable pointing a gun at a living creature without a very good reason. I learned to shoot a CO2 revolver accurately a couple years before I encountered any friends with even a BB gun and by the time I did encounter them they annoyed me. I clearly remember the disgust I had that they were shooting randomly at pigeons and the like... and my anger when they actually wounded (didn't kill) a pigeon with an unlucky shot. The poor thing was flopping around and none of them had the decency to finish what they started. That's not to say I didn't shoot anything... I used that CO2 revolver to hunt rats when they became a real problem at one point. Killed quite a few and didn't feel bad at all because 1) they needed to die and a pellet is kinder than poison, and 2) when I hit them they actually died instead of flopping around with a broken wing cooing pitifully or the like. I killed them but I didn't then go and kill the neighbor's cats. Nor did I point guns at my friends. It was just how I was raised. You just didn't destroy things without good reason. Not anything. Not toys, not animals, not people. Food? That's a valid reason. Fun? Not a good reason. Self protection? Well, I'll put it to you this way: I've moved more poisonous spiders than I've squashed, but I've squashed a few. Knowledge? That can be a valid reason but only after you've exhausted other ways of gaining the knowledge. I can't remember not being that way.

Other kids? I've dealt with kids that, either because of disposition or bad (to my way of looking at it) parenting are destructive and careless and maybe they need a different sort of lesson. Maybe for them going hunting would be that lesson. Maybe going back to basics and teaching them to shoot carefully with a CO2 pellet gun (I keep saying CO2 because spring/pump guns are nearly impossible for a young child to work... I couldn't work them at all but I could shoot that CO2 gun accurately). Maybe they'll never be safe around guns and the solution isn't mentionable in polite society -- never met one like that though.

I've never met a 5yo that was so out of it that they needed a "your best friend's head will explode" simulation though.
 
Now you can make all sorts of excuses and explanations about how terribly dangerous it is to teach your children about firearms from early ages
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I didnt say they shouldnt be educated... like I said earlier I think when they can handle it properly they can shoot it... also if there is a young child in the house (IMO) there should not be any firearm laying around. I would hope no one would argue that but...
 
I mean, if it were a more "traditional" rifle, it wouldn't have been quite so bad. If you wanna teach your kid how to shoot, fine, but you DON'T put an AR-15 in a child's hands!
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Jim Zumbo would agree!


I thought the melon story seemed like a good idea.
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I didn't take it quite to the level of "the melon story," but the first time my son, then two years old, went shooting with me, I set a navel orange on a tree limb and shot it with a .357 mag from about 30 feet. "Daddy, where did the orange go?" "It disappeared son, destoyed, gone, just like anything else you shoot."
 
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snow,

Of course there shouldn't! Firearms which are not being used should be locked up at all times, especially when there are children in the house.

In the real world, though, humans make mistakes. My friend had stopped by our house after a visit to the range, discovered my car was dead, and offered to give us a lift to town. I happily agreed, and my friend stepped into the bathroom while I went to grab my purse from my bedroom. On my way into my room, I sent the kids out to the car, because my friend was in a hurry; I did not know that he'd left his range bag open on the back seat, and he did not know I was going to send the kids out before I went out.

Such things happen when you live in the real world. People who have had children know this. :)

Anyway, that's why I was so grateful that my children had had their curiousity defused when they were very small, and that we'd taken them to the range even when they were too little to handle a gun "properly."

More here: www.corneredcat.com/Kids/momkids.aspx

And here: http://www.corneredcat.com/Kids/firstlesson.aspx

And here: http://www.corneredcat.com/Kids/disarming.aspx

pax
 
Let's explore the "there should not be any firearm laying around" argument.

What good does hiding the guns do?

Do you know if there are guns laying around your house? Really? Did you buy the house used? I know someone who was having a new air conditioner installed in their house. The HVAC guys went up into the attic and came back down saying, "do you know there's a pile of guns up there?" Nope, she didn't know.

Do you know if there are guns around other people's houses? Not just people you know, not just people your kids know either. I was in and out of all sorts of houses as a kid, including unoccupied houses in our neighborhood as well as the houses of friends whose parents had very different ideas about gun storage from those held by my parents.

Do you know if there are guns in public places? My brother and one of his friends found a loaded pistol in some bushes when they were 6 or 7. The gun had probably been used in a crime and tossed.

You simply cannot prevent kids from sometimes encountering guns any more than you can prevent them from accessing knives or stoves. It just doesn't work because you don't control enough of the world.

What does that mean? It means you've got to teach the kids how to behave around guns. You've got to give them that lesson early. How early? Before they start going into other people's houses unattended. That means before 5 in most cases.

And, once you have taught them how to behave, what's the big deal about having guns around?

In my house growing up all guns were secured. Doesn't mean I didn't know exactly where they were. Doesn't mean I couldn't have gotten to them if I really wanted to. And, now that I think about it, it doesn't really mean all guns. My father had a single-shot percussion pistol on a shelf, out where anyone could touch it. It looked like the nicest cap gun you can imagine but it could've been loaded and fired. I never even thought of taking it off the shelf though. Not to play with it, not to show it off, not for anything. Technically it was a gun just lying around though.
 
Ed,

Good post. I do disagree with your final point, though.

And, once you have taught them how to behave, what's the big deal about having guns around?
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First, other people's kids aren't going to be as well trained as your own. If you have kids, other people's kids will be in your home, sooner or later.

Second (and more to the point), human beings aren't perfect. Neither adults nor children are perfect. That's why we lock the guns up, AND we teach our children what to do if they find one. Any plan that relies entirely upon human beings (of any age!) to be perfect is a flawed plan. So we take both precautions: we lock up the guns and we also teach the kids what to do if they find one. That way, we aren't relying on the kids to be perfect and never disobey. We also aren't relying on the adults to be perfect and never goof by leaving the safe door open.

A lot of people seem to want to keep only one very thin layer of safety -- a reliance on human perfection -- between their children and a permanent, preventable tragedy. I don't understand that, and never will.

Teach your children.

Lock up the guns you are not using.

pax
 
pax wrote:

Any plan that relies entirely upon human beings (of any age!) to be perfect is a flawed plan. So we take both precautions: we lock up the guns and we also teach the kids what to do if they find one. That way, we aren't relying on the kids to be perfect and never disobey. We also aren't relying on the adults to be perfect and never goof by leaving the safe door open.
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That's what I'm taking from this thread, thanks.
 
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