How'd they get so good?

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kamagong

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I just finished a book called "The Deadliest Men" by Paul Kirchner. It's a book about some of the "baddest" men in history from Miyamoto Musashi to James Bowie to Audie Murphy. Some of these men made their mark with the sword, some with the spear, some even made their reputations as fighter pilots. I am primarily interested in the gunmen in the book though, all of whom were incredibly skilled. The book mentioned that many of these men practiced often with their weapons. Delf "Jelly" Bryce attended civilian camps put on by the military where he trained on the pistol, submachine gun, rifle, and machine gun. Wild Bill Hickok reportedly cleaned, oiled, and reloaded his weapons everyday, a sensible precaution with blackpowder weapons. Before he did so he practiced with and shot empty his already loaded pistols. But most interesting of all was Alvin York. Alvin York grew up in Tennessee at the beginning of the 20th century. His father was a blacksmith and given that Tennessee at that time was not known for being a particularly prosperous area, I doubt that York had much money to spend on ammunition for the plinking and general playing around that many of us here do on a regular basis. Yet York's marksmanship was deadly and his skill with both pistol and rifle helped him to win the Congressional Medal of Honor.

How did men like Alvin York become such good shots? Was it natural talent? Or was there something in their background that made them good?
 
Talent, sure - plus when you're poor and have to make each shot count, the alternative being hunger, you learn to do just that.

Along with that would be just plain cold nerve - the ability to stamp on your emotions shrieking at you and get the job done regardless.
 
Talent, sure - plus when you're poor and have to make each shot count, the alternative being hunger, you learn to do just that.

I guess people like York did have a lot more motivation to make every shot count compared to Joe Blow at the range.

I still find it hard to imagine how people from an earlier era became such good shots. I doubt that many of them had the amount of practice many of us here have. I bet I've already fired a couple thousand of rounds through my CZ 452, and I'm still not very skilled. York successfully hunted with a blackpowder rifle. I wish I could ask him for tips.
 
I think it was a number of things: natural, inborn talent, physical ability (ie, primarily visual depth perception and coordination, both of which go a long way to making things line up naturally), pure grit, and training.

Jelly, for instance, was a very good shot before he started getting trained. I read somewhere that his vision was so good that he could visually detect bullets in-air.

For Alvin York, I suspect part of what made him such a good shot was in-born (natural coordination and good vision); the fact that he was such a good shot in war time due to a combination of grit, nerves of steel, and possibly simply not caring about death (maybe due to such a hard upbringing). Also, the hard bringing likely made for a situation where every shot was incredibly valuable, and if/when he got to shoot, it was likely at food, and his parents probably expected one of those "here are two cartridges, bring back three squirrels" type situations.

Keep in mind that many of these "good shots" were point-shooters: they didn't aim in the traditional sense. They just shot. That indicates point shooting.
 
They represent the tiny percentage of men that are "natural fighters." 80 out of 100 are targets, 10 will fight if lead, 9 want to fight but have to be lead, 1 out of 100 wants to fight and will move to danger on his own initiative.

For example, Herbert McBride (a Gunsite favorite) was on the golf course in Indianapolis when he heard that WWI had broken out. He left for Canada to get into the war.
 
I suspect that some of these guys had incredible vission.

I have vision that is corrected to 20/20, yet I've come to realize that there are people around me who see MUCH, MUCH better than I.
 
For example, Herbert McBride (a Gunsite favorite) was on the golf course in Indianapolis when he heard that WWI had broken out. He left for Canada to get into the war.

I love the irony when we look at The Vietnam War...
 
Unless you just have a natural aptitude if you don't want to just be good but truly excell then you pretty much have to be singularly focussed on that one thing, whatever it is. Usually it takes money also and that excellance often comes at the expense of just about everything else. I was once that way about martial arts but it just got to the point that it was keeping me from being sucessful in many other areas of my life that are a whole lot more practical. At some point you have to choose what you want to be and be it, just understand if you want to ride you have to pay.
 
How'd they get so good?


I've often wondered the same thing. The only conclusion I've come to is that some people are just born with a talent. In my line of work as a musician, I've seen plenty of 'seasoned' older musicians crumble under pressure when things start going downhill onstage and a few incredibly young musicians who can keep it together and take control of the situation when the SHTF. I suppose the same thing applies to gunfighting. If a fellow has a cool head and 'takes his time in a hurry,' he'll probably come out on top.
 
I think some sort of inate psychological strength enables one to be cool under fire, while others cower or freeze. OBviously experiences and practiced behaviors can build on and even override instincts, and York's experiences as a meat hunter for his family would provide that. In addition I believe that some of York's calmness in combat was his faith. He was a serious Christian believer who originally filed for CO status, but was talked out of it by a superior officer, who knew of his skill with a rifle, and who explained the Biblical basis of defense. As to his skills, he was apparently respected as a good shot even amongst men and boys who had the same "hunting for food" background he did, which would indicate that he had some natural gifts in that line.
 
I have seen it first hand in combat, you point shoot and get the head shot. Where 3 others on perimeter with weapons outbound fired half a mag in 3 rd burst and got air. Alot of it has to do with the rod cone ratio in the eye, women have more rods than we do so the advantage is natural, but people like me who have better eyesight the farther things are (farsighted) have a predisposition to be better marksmen.
Alot of it has to do with knowing your weapons capabilities, which sad to say is where alot of people confuse hardware with skill.
 
Yet York's marksmanship was deadly and his skill with both pistol and rifle helped him to win the Congressional Medal of Honor.

He didn't go out and compete in combat for a medal, so he didn't "win" it. It was awarded.

It isn't "Congressional" either.
 
Some folks just have an unbelievable combination of eyesight, reflexes and muscular speed/accuracy. I think anyone can improve but some folks just start out waaaaaaay ahead of the pack.

"Jelly" Bryce springs to mind.

In college I met one such person. Just for the fun of it I was taking a fencing class and was doing decently but there was one guy who was basically the fastest human being I've ever met and I don't think there was any chance that I would EVER fence on his level.
 
Myfather was one of six brothers...

They were raised in the hills of Missouri, poor and with six sisters; the older ones were given a rifle and one shell to hunt with. They could come home with an unfired shell and eat dinner, a fired shell and game and eat dinner, or a fired shell, no game and no dinner. That was his story.
All six brothers were in the military and all were rated as marksmen with pistol, rifle, or machine gun. My father was rated as instructor on the government 1911. He was given the guys that failed the regular training and didn't lose any. He taught them all how to shoot.
The brothers were very competitive and when they would gather for a shoot things like spools were sat on fence posts and they would shoot through the hole in the middle. Some were split others not.
My dad was born in 1909 and he was the second oldest so that would set the time frame.
I think circumstance and mindset both come into play with these guys/gals.
Brian
 
I know a Force Recon marine that has a different ratio of rods to cones in his eyes, this makes him suspect that he sees colors less vibrantly than the rest of us, He says that at dusk/dawn it looks like normal daylight to him. He is very good at seeing 'through' camoflauge. Also, he has extremely good vision as far as detail, if not color. This allowed him to shoot a near perfect score.

Some people simply have the genetics. No matter how much most people train, they don't rise to the level of an olympic athlete. And then some people have the drive, pushing them beyond what their natural talents would indicate. Often these are the folks who do very good at the highschool level of track and field, but simply cannot compete at the next higher level.

Combine natural talent and drive in a single individual, and you have someone who is going to bring home multiple olympic medals.


Further, these men probably had good teachers. People who learned how to shoot well were better fed, and passed down hints and tricks to the son, and the son to his son, etc. It is much quicker to learn when you have a reasonably skilled mentor to set you on the right path, rather than learn everything yourself from scratch.

For instance, right now, if you set me up with Old Mrs Browlinton, the piano teacher, after 10 hours of lessons I'd be able to play a few songs. Set me down in front of a piano on my own for 10 hours, and I probably wouldn't

Unfortunately for us in the shooting community, we are all sitting down behind the piano banging on keys all by our selves
 
Making a sure shot has a lot to do with mentality.
One can be a sure shot on the firing bench, but when faced with stress, they might not function as well.

However, in the ancient art of Wushu, mentality and focus determines the outcome of a battle. During the adrenaline rush of combat, one is prone to making mistakes, and that is a common phenomenon. It is an innate response response built into our bodies to help us flee from danger.
It can be deconditioned, however, with repeated practice, and meditate. And when you are meditating, you focus on imagined scenarios where you are facing all kinds of dangers, ie.. Japanese soldiers, enemy agents, bandits. You then imagine, in your little mental scenario, holding your gun, or sword, and calmly assessing the danger, before taking them on.

Repeated meditations like that will help you decondition yourself from that "flee" mentality.

It is Wushu that enabled former peasants, railway workers, farmers, and factory workers in the Chinese Communist Resistance turn from ordinary people into hardened, ferocious fighters in China's war against Japan in 1937-1945.

My great uncle taught me many things about Wushu even before I began to follow it's teachings. He is a man who had personally sliced through many Japanese body armor and bodies with his Da Dao at Pingxingguan in 1938.

During combat with multiple assailants who are also just as armed as you are, instinct shooting is the only way to go against them. Your weapon becomes a part of your body, and you lock on to your enemy by pure feel and sight. "Tacticool" gadgets such as weapons lights and lasers are of little use during this situation.
It all boils down to mentality.

When a fighter armed with all the latest gadgets but with little determination or much panic faces off a lightly clad fighter armed with only a broadsword and fierce determination, the space cowboy can expect to find himself sliced in half.
 
Humans are products of their enviroments. Combined with a natural affinity, creates what legends are made of.
 
anyone can be an excellent shot, get great accuracy and rate of fire with good accuracy on the range. But if you dont have the nerve to take the time when someone else is trying to kill you, your not going to have a successful career.
However, if you look closely, alot of the greats like the samaurai and hickock all had the same idealogy. That is, only think of what you need to do to end the fight, not what could happen to you.
 
I expect those famous people all had exceptional natural talent and nerves of steel. And they probably had a good teacher. Another thing to consider, and something some people underestimate, are the lessons a person learns when they grow up spending a lot of time hunting for their dinner. I grew up on a farm where I hunted every kind of animal and bird, and I still like to hunt.

Hunting teaches a person many good skills: shooting while you experience a big adrenaline rush, the importance of proper shot placement, shooting when you are unexpectedly startled by your target, to shoot quickly before the target moves behind cover or runs away, shooting a moving target, shooting in all kinds of adverse weather (heat, cold, rain, snow), shooting at targets that unexpectedly appear from another direction, shooting while on a steep hillside, maneuvering around obstacles with a gun. Shooting at many different distances. Shooting from different positions; when I'm hunting most of my shots are from a standing position, but I sometimes shoot from a walking, running, kneeling, sitting, or prone position. It also teaches you the capabilities and limitations of your guns.
 
Like anything else that people truly excel leverage an innate aptitude honed by practice and training. You can not be born with the edge and still train to competency but you can not rise much above mediocrity in anything without an aptitude. I soooooo wanted to be a rock star guitarist and I tried very hard and diligently but had no real aptitude. Pity because I had the hair. cha ching two cents.

I love reading about the exhibition shooters of the 19th century. The talk about shooting to eat brings Annie Oakley to mind. That pint size woman was uncanny with firearms. I don't know her method but someone mentioned point shooters. I don't think following rules gets them to where they are.
 
It takes many skills and luck
luck of genetics and getting by with mistakes If you read Audie Murphy's auto biography he wasn't even the best marksman in his squad but when your sitting in a foxhole and get hit by artillery just luck

Genetics is the biggest reason same as proffessional athletes or nobel winning scientists

add in practice, determination and probably some unique life experiences.

I'd also like to add that they didn't have to be great marksman most old west gunfights happened like ten yards at most. and with modern medical treatment less of their opponents would have been killed(plasma is your friend) alo blackpowder can make it hard to see.

When Murphy one his Medal of Honor he used a machinegun on a burning tank destroyer. He also preffered grenades and a m1 carbine

Sgt. York was an amazing shot if you can get an account from the german side it was even more amazing, basically everytime he fired he shot an enemy in the head they figured they were outnumbered. even more impressive he killed 7 germans with 7 shots from a 1911 as they rushed him.
 
During the Anti Japanese War, there was a hero named Ling Jienfong who lived in the western mountains by himself. Orphaned at a young age when roving bandits killed his entire family in Inner Mongolia, Ling practically lived the forest, eating whatever he could hunt or coming to a town once a while and earn some money as a poor shoe shine or beggar. Soon, he found that his natural expertise lay in shooting. During that time, China was practically ruled by the Guomingdang (Nationalists), with the Communists occupying the northern provinces.
One day, he stole a pair of pistols from a drunk and sleeping Guomingdang officer. A pair of C-96 Mauser carbines and a haversack of halfmoon clips.

Soon, he started to earn money by showing off his shooting skills in many towns along his travels. He was able to throw plates and teacups and bottles into the air and blast them to pieces with dreadful accuracy, one shot for each item. He drew huge crowds, and soon, amassed enough money for him to purchase a rail ticket to travel to Beijing, or possibly Shanghai, where he might have been able to find a better and long term job.

However, fate once again intervenes. In 1937, Japanese forces swarmed into mainland China from Manchuria. After fierce fighting at Luguochiao, the Guomingdang was destroyed. City after city fell to the Japanese. Finally at Nanjing, the Japanese military committed one of the most horrific crimes against humainty, the cold blooded massacre of over 300,000 unarmed civilians and prisoners of war.

By 1939, the Japanese had reached the edges of Szechuan. Around the same time, the Communist Party fully entered the war against Japan, and deployed the entire Red Army into the field to fight them.

Ling Jienfong had no affiliations at that time, with neither CCP or KMT, and he had no political views whatsoever, but he recognized a hated enemy when he saw it, and when he saw a Japanese convoy rumble down a lonely mountain road in 1940, he realized them as the "same ones who perpetrated the Nanjing atrocity". They were another division of troops, but Ling decided to release his hatred on them anyways, since he figured that these troops were going somewhere to kill more people. Whatever they were, their intentions cannot be good.

He drew his Mausers, took careful aim at the lead vehicle, and squeezed the trigger. Suddenly, a cloud of blood and bone fragments erupted across the shattered windshield of the truck. It stopped suddenly, the second truck slamming into the first one, spilling the troops all over the ground. The next vehicles also collided, and caught fire, terrified soldiers running everywhere. In the chaos, another officer fell, the back of his head completely blown out, then another officer, a round straight through the neck. Then 4 soldiers, who were shot as they were running. In the heat and chaos of the collisions, nobody even realized what was going on. Someone heard gunfire, when he looked up, his head also exploded, showering another soldier with fragments of skull and blood. He screamed, also looking up. A second later, he was down as well. A round struck the fuel tank of one of the flaming trucks, causing a massive cloud of flame to envelope the vehicle. That explosion ignited all the spilled fuel from the other trucks on the ground, casuing a devastating chain reaction.
As flames roared all around, Ling Jienfong took the time to reload. He took aim again, this time firing straight into a crowd of confused and shocked soldiers, taking them down with dreadful skill. As the first ones were shot, they fell, tripping up those running behind them. In turn, they were shot as well. Within 15 minutes, every single soldier and officer from the convoy was shot to death. Over 200 enemy dead. One shot for each, nothing more. And none of them even realized that they drove into an ambush.

All by one single man, Ling Jienfong.

It was almost a month before the Japanese high command realized what was going on. By that time, over 1,000 Japanese lay dead, all from ambushes on convoys. The survivors from these attacks all told the same story: a single black clad man on horseback, two pistols, firing with terrifying accuracy.

The Japanese tried all methods to capture this man, but with little success, although he almost always hides amongst the local peasant population. However, the peasants all resented the Japanese occupiers, and they welcomed Ling Jienfong as a hero. At daytime, he would usually rest, but at nighttime, he rides, and kills, always with dreadful skill and accuracy.
When the Japanese finally realized that he attacks by night, they tried to set up an ambush at the edge of a small village. However, a villager sneaking past the headquarters of the enemy officers overheard a couple of Chinese traitors talking about the plan to kill or capture Ling Jienfong, and ran back to the house Ling was hiding and told him of the plan.
That night, while the ambush convoy thundered down the road with guns drawn, a silhouetted horseman rode straight up to the headquarters in the village, where the Japanese officer was drinking wine with his staff.

Unnoticed by the guards, Ling crept to the front door, where he thrust a bayonet into the neck of the first guard. As he fell, thrashing, the second turned around, only to take a single shot full to the face. Before the sharp report of that shot faded, Ling kicked in the front door, and unleashed a barrage of fire into the room before him. When he stopped, almost 10 dead officers lay on the floor before him.
He then walked into the rear, where another room lay, with it's door closed, it's edges stuffed with pillows. The commander was in the room along with a whore, and was just at the peak of his pleasures when the barrage of gunfire rang out in the room behind him. However, he was at the height of his sexual pleasure, way too mindf*cked to realize what was going on.
Within two seconds, Ling was in the room, having kicked the door down. Without a single word, he leveled his pistol at the officer and fired three times. The whore screamed, and scurried to the farthest side of the room, her body covered in the blood of the dead officer, his shattered body in a heap on the floor.

The Japanese were bewildered. They could not, as hard as they tried, to kill whatever was stalking them like a great, dark bird of prey, picking off soldiers and officers with unseen accuracy....................

The year is now 1945. The war was almost over. Ling Jienfong had killed almost 7,000 enemy troops. Just a few weeks ago, he killed over 100 Japanese during a night attack on a compound.
Ling Jienfong never saw the war's end though, he died several weeks before Japan's surrender........................

In 1949, the People's Liberation Army defeated Chiang Kai Shek's Guomingdang and founded the People's Republic of China. Following the liberation was a time of rebuilding. The fleeing Nationalists took with them every single gold piece and precious jewelry in China's imperial coffers. The Communists literally had to build China again from scratch.
In 1958, the Great Leap Foward was instituted.
In 1964, the People's Republic of China exploded their first atomic bomb.
In 1966, the Cultural Revolution began.
In 1967, China tested it's first thermonuclear weapon.

In 1978, the Cultural Revolution ended, and Comrade Deng Xiaoping was named the head of state. Finally, during this period of economic stabilization, historians could devote their time to unearthing the great mysteries of the past.
Until this time, only few people heard of Ling Jienfong. During all thsi time, he had been a unsung and nameless hero.
However, in the 1980s, Chinese historians discovered the remains of a well preserved diary hidden in the trunk of hollow tree in Shanxxi. In that diary contained the bloodcurling accounts of Ling's nighttime rides. Towards the end, the writer had an entry about a severe illness. It is now known that Ling Jienfong died from typhoid fever. In his last days, he suffered agonizing stomach cramps, fever, vomiting, and delirium. Perhaps what he saw in these visions was the image of a girl he once loved and lost many years ago, so beautiful even after all these years. Beyond her was a field of primroses casting their delicate fragrance into the spring air. The war was somewhere so far away now, so far away that the air smelled like it should always smell.......
At the edge of the field, she stood, her sweet smile beckoning him to come. Suddenly, he was free of all pain, as he walked towards her. He felt nothing but happiness and joy at seeing her, his long lost love............................

His body was never recovered, although a tattered haversack filled with ammunition and a pair of 7.62 mm semiautomatic pistols, along with a rusty old kerosene lantern were found nearby. These items, including the diary today sits in the People's Liberation Army Museum in Beijing................
 
Some men are born to battle as some are born to art. They excel with little to no training. It's who they are, what they are, what they do.

Those men still exist - it's just that with the feminization of western culture it's harder for their natural talents to blossom.
 
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