Agents use new tools to trace handguns

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orygunmike

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_us/the_gun_hunt
Fri Jul 13, 4:54 PM ET


NEW YORK - The shell casings had barely cooled on a Brooklyn street when federal agents began trying to unwrap a mystery: How did three pistols get in the hands of the men who gunned down two police officers?

At the time, the agents had little to go on. The shooters were still on the loose. But within hours, agents learned that the guns were originally sold by three shops in southern states. Powerful computer databases also told them two of the weapons were several years old. Another was nearly new.

By Monday evening, the agents were headed south, hunting for prior owners of the weapons who might explain how the guns traveled north to New York from Virginia, Tennessee and Alabama.

This was routine work for one of the six regional gun-tracing centers run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Each day, the centers use a combination of science and shoe-leather detective work to track hundreds of firearms from crime scenes, looking for clues that can lead to a big break or put them on the trail of a gunrunner.

"Every gun has a story to tell," said William G. McMahon, the special agent in charge of the ATF's New York field office.

The good news is that telling that story has been getting a little easier.

Years ago, investigators trying to trace a weapon had to browse file cabinets filled with index cards.

These days, investigators at ATF centers in New York, Miami, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles and Washington have high-tech tools at their disposal.

Every sale of a new firearm at a licensed gun shop is recorded, and the sales data can be analyzed by computer for clues and trends. Investigators also map where guns are recovered, sometimes with intriguing results.

The ATF's regional gun center in Chicago analyzed records related to guns recently seized from gang members and discovered that more than 300 of the weapons had been purchased from just four shops in Mississippi.

That lead resulted in the February arrests of 19 people on charges that they were buying weapons in bulk in Mississippi and illegally selling them to gang members up north.

"The hardware we have is top-notch. The software continues to improve, and our analysts are great," said Andrew Traver, agent in charge of the ATF's Chicago field division.

High tech isn't a cure-all, he said. But it helps agents stay on top of a mountain of guns. Last year, he said, Chicago police requested trace information on nearly 13,000 firearms.

"When you get down to it, the problem itself is almost overwhelming because of the volume," Traver said.

The task is made harder by limited manpower. Even the largest of the tracing centers has only a few dozen agents, plus a few officers detailed from city police departments.

That means investigators need to be somewhat selective in which crimes get their full attention, said Kelvin Crenshaw, the special agent in charge of the Seattle field division.

But the speed at which agents can work was apparent Monday after NYPD officers Russel Timoshenko and Herman Yan were wounded during a traffic stop of a stolen car.

The shooting happened at 2:30 a.m. The guns were found a short time later.

By 10 a.m. the serial numbers of the weapons had been delivered to the ATF's tracing center in Brooklyn. By 1 p.m., investigators knew who first purchased the guns and where.

The next part of performing the trace has been harder.

Federal law does not require gun owners to register their weapons or report secondhand sales, so agents must rely on old-fashioned police work. In most cases, that means finding the original owners and getting them to talk about what happened to the guns after they bought them.

Tracking those people consumes a ton of manpower, "and a lot of times, it doesn't lead anywhere," McMahon said.

One of the guns used in the New York police shooting had at least three owners, including one now out of the country on a cruise. The agents reached him aboard the ship by telephone.

Another original owner died years ago. The third gun had at least two previous owners. One is in prison.

ATF spokesman Joseph Green said investigators have yet to prove how the guns were delivered to the men now charged with the shootings.

The stakes are high. Timoshenko was fighting for his life after being shot in the face and neck.

Ballistics tests offered an additional surprise: The .45-caliber pistol used to shoot the officer was also used in an earlier drive-by shooting.

"We're going to keep at it," Green said. "Once you're on the trail, you never know where it may take you."

--------------------------------------------
Seems like a lot of effort....I can't figure out why they just don't require owners to place their drivers license number on each casing with an itsy bitsy permanent marker. :rolleyes:
 
It's coming. When "Judge Dredd" talked about guns sticking the shooter's DNA into the projectile before firing, I thought, "How long before that's mandatory?"
 
There's got to be a pony under all that ...

These days, investigators at ATF centers in New York, Miami, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles and Washington have high-tech tools at their disposal.

Every sale of a new firearm at a licensed gun shop is recorded, and the sales data can be analyzed by computer for clues and trends

Excuse me, but weren't we all told that the FFL keeps the forms on file, and that the forms never leave the shop unless it is sold or closes its doors forever?

So how does BATFE analyze sales data to come up with the shop where it was sold?
The shell casings had barely cooled on a Brooklyn street when federal agents began trying to unwrap a mystery: How did three pistols get in the hands of the men who gunned down two police officers?

At the time, the agents had little to go on. The shooters were still on the loose. But within hours, agents learned that the guns were originally sold by three shops in southern states. Powerful computer databases also told them two of the weapons were several years old. Another was nearly new.

By Monday evening, the agents were headed south, hunting for prior owners of the weapons who might explain how the guns traveled north to New York from Virginia, Tennessee and Alabama.

The fact that this information came from "barely cooled" shell casings is evidence of forensic magic by BATFE, but that's another issue altogether.

I'm thinking there has got to be a pony in the room under all the horse hockey in the OP article.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Wow they have micro-stamping in ny all ready.:confused: This story reeks of recycled cow fodder to me.:cuss:
 
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Sounds like BS to me too. Its probably no more than looking at the serial numbers off the weapons & attempting to trace them. Spun with an Anti's dream of all guns registered forever wet dream wish.
 
Never;

I'm going to presume you're a city boy. Now, out here in Montana we tend to think of hay, both new-mown & in storage, as nice smellin' stuff.

I think you're confused about which end of the cow is which.

LOL, 900F
 
Wow, they have an excel file and used ctrl+f. That is a powerful database.

Reading between the lines, it would appear that some thugs killed a couple of cops and the guns were quickly recovered likely from the scene or nearby. The mention of cooled shell casings sounds like FUD to me since there has yet to be a case of a crime solved using balistics between the shell casings and the ones test fired and required by certain states. It is conceivable that the shell casings were used to id the recovered firearms since they would have been no "extra" shots in between which would alter the pattern.

Since it was LEO that were killed, .gov put as many resources on the case as possible to follow up leads on the case. The firearm would have to go into and out-of the bound book of the first FFL that touched it. After that it would be up to the agents to track down through warrants/due process/etc.

Smacks of a bunch of FUD. I think that the wine&cheese bandit is much more believable.
 
Here's the whole point of the article.
The next part of performing the trace has been harder.

Federal law does not require gun owners to register their weapons or report secondhand sales, so agents must rely on old-fashioned police work. In most cases, that means finding the original owners and getting them to talk about what happened to the guns after they bought them.
All the rest is distracting fluff, to get the sheeple to accept more Fed restrictions/intrusions to "help the police find the bad guys!"
 
After you cut through all of the ATF&E's self-promotional and get to the bottom line you find that:

ATF spokesman Joseph Green said investigators have yet to prove how the guns were delivered to the men now charged with the shootings.

I read in an earlier story that the shooters were found in PA. after someone who had help get them there had spilled the beans.

And the real point of what both the BATF&E and and media want is a:

Federal law (that) does require gun owners to register their weapons or report secondhand sales,

And also they pointed out of course that:

The task is made harder by limited manpower. Even the largest of the tracing centers has only a few dozen agents, plus a few officers detailed from city police departments.

Which means, "send us more money."

Even though:

Tracking those people consumes a ton of manpower, "and a lot of times, it doesn't lead anywhere, ...

But most of the articles's readers won't have a clue about any of this. :barf: :banghead:
 
These people must live on the set of CSI, seeing as they have the serial numbers of the EXACT guns that fired those shell casings in uner 8 hours.
 
These people must live on the set of CSI, seeing as they have the serial numbers of the EXACT guns that fired those shell casings in uner 8 hours.

Haha. CSI has made the cops step up their jargon to look like they are on top of things... like on TV that has become the norm of public LEO perception :D
 
It seems to me the article is written in a way that knowing who has owned the firearm are the ones they are after more than the ones who pulled the trigger. Like the bigger crime is having owned a firearm not that you did anything else wrong. I have noticed this in alot of MSM articles that they are written to get people to oooo and awwww over knowing everyone who has owned the hammer I mean firearm is evil incarnate.:mad:
 
I suspect a lot of information is missing, and some or all of what is there was made up. The bottom line is that it is another promotional pitch by BATFE, the kind that floods TV and newspapers every time BATFE's appropriation bill comes up in Congress.

"LOOK AT WHAT WE NOBLE, ADORABLE, GLORIOUS, HANDSOME FEDERAL AGENTS ARE DOING TO REDUCE CRIME!!! And if we just got additional tens of billions and blanket approval to trash the Constitution and shoot everyone in sight, we COULD DO SO MUCH MORE!!!!"

Jim
 
Fed gun cops trace guns....

First of all, somebody tell me why this is news?

Next, tell me why finding out where the guns came from is more important than finding the guys who shot the cops!

I can see it as an after the fact, nice to know so that in the long run we can maybe shut down the pipeline, but the whole point of the article seems aimed more at finding out where the guns came from (and the difficulties therein) than it does in the outrage that cops were shot, and the hunt for the shooters.

I smell AGENDA here, and it don't smell like keeping cops from getting shot or catching the shooters!
 
CB900F Never;

I'm going to presume you're a city boy. Now, out here in Montana we tend to think of hay, both new-mown & in storage, as nice smellin' stuff.

I think you're confused about which end of the cow is which.

LOL, 900F

I was half asleep when I typed that. I meant to say recycled cow fodder. I corrected my original post to reflect that. Oh and for the record I grew up in north west NJ. I graduated grade school with 30 in my class and 70 in high school. I have balled hay, worked on a farm, I know what a ginny hen is, shot street signs from the pickup truck window for fun, Etc.
No city boy here.
 
Never;

I apologise in advance for what follows. But honest to God, it's just too good to pass up.

"I have balled hay". I will admit that I myself have literally had a roll in the hay, but I've never had sex with the substance itself.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

900F
 
Maybe we should not forget that Waco began as just such a "show and tell" by BATF to impress the new president (Clinton) and increase the BATF budget. In Washington, the name of the game for an agency is to promote and enhance itself; any action that accomplishes those goals will be acceptable to its leadership.

Jim
 
The agency has a great advantage. No matter what they tell an urban reporter, it will be believed without question. The media has neither the will nor knowledge to evaluate what they told. :banghead:
 
44AMP:

As I said in a recent post: the news agencies will be our downfall. They need to fill 24/7/365 worth "news". Even that which is not news is sensationalized to seem like "news", but it remains nonetheless news-worthless.

Speaking of worthless, I saw JJ on the tube this morning at 1:00ish (am). He and his two guests were talking about, what else...guns! Bad guns! Automatic guns and hunting with them. It was almost comical. That man has a serious TV addiction. Strap a camera on his head and he'd be in his glory, and his glory is all that counts for JJ.

Tell me, if you had a chance to travel free-of-charge, and had free admission to attend a taping, would you sit in on one of JJ's shows? I would not.

:)

Doc2005
 
Very good illustration that they have lied and broken the law themselves because it was the most convenient way to solve the problem.

They create databases on information they were specificly prohibited from creating databases on. They get a lead to a shop, and manage to add all thier records to the database.

We saw the same thing in the D.C. sniper situation. Suddenly people around the northeast who had a similar type of firearm were being investigated and searched. Where did they suddenly figure out who all of those people were? The people that had such firearms? By creating a databases on all firearms in a fishing expedition illegaly collecting this information in the name of investigation. What do you think they do with such informational databases once the specific incident they were pursuing that was the pretense for gathering it is solved or over (or in some cases never over or solved)? Throw it away? Undo a database they spent valuable time and money creating? No, that might be the legal thing to do, but they are above the law, they just merge it with all the information collected for all the other investigations.

So they in the name of investigation illegaly create national registries. Not just on firearms illegaly used, but on all those they run across in the course of thier investigation browsing FFLs records of sale.

So why can they do something specificly outlawed and illegal just because it is convenient? Because they are the government of course. With exactly what our founding fathers wanted to prevent: a standing army that could be used against the people in the furtherance of tyranny. Except we do not recognize them as such because they are an army specificly created for use only against the people, and therefore not labeled an army by us. In modern terms only similar units sent to fight in foriegn affairs are known as branches of the military. The wording of the founding fathers though was in reference to kings that used thier armies to quel uprising, to dominate and as security, enabling tyrannical monarchs to rule even when it was not the will of the people. The very same functions we now have national federal "police" for. We passed a law not allowing the military to be used against the people for general purposes, and the result has been for them to just create branches of agencies to fill the same role.

These same agencies now need increased capabilities in knowing where every single weapon is and who holds it. Obviously it has little to do with actual criminal cases as firearms would still be stolen and untraceable to the thugs they already found with other methods. Little to do with securing the firearm they already have. Everything to do with absolute power. Which is what the 2nd was created to balance.
 
The shell casings had barely cooled on a Brooklyn street when federal agents began trying to unwrap a mystery: How did three pistols get in the hands of the men who gunned down two police officers?

Hyperbole aside.. Who CARES! Focus on the criminals that committed the crime and prosecute them. What the tools were and/or where they got them is of no real importance. Put the criminals away and be done with it and stop this crap that'll wind up biting the rest of us.
 
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