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HP vs RN bullets?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by jski, Oct 12, 2020.

  1. jski

    jski Member

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    I suspect there no is specific load data for my case or any number of other examples. You mentioned that one of the bullets in Alliant’s load data was swaged lead, the other a jacketed hollow point. Well, the Berry’s bullets I’m using are both swaged lead and plated, not to be confused with jacketed. But one is RN and the other HP.

    Neither is a simple swaged lead bullet nor jacketed hollow point. And Berry’s, unlike Speer, doesn’t publish recipes. So, you’re left to extrapolate. That’s how I ended up using 7 grains of Unique for both.
     
  2. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

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    Regardless of what you have done, the only person constraining you to that method, is you. I've taken a different direction, been reading up as much as I can and gathering components but I haven't actually hand loaded a cartrige yet this year, my prior hand loading experience was in 1983-1984 with a Lee Loader kit and a factory new S&W Model 13. It's part of my basic nature confirmed with Birkmann assessment when I was sent to executive charm school in 2004. Thee were others whose basic nature are to charge head first and maybe look back once an unexpected obstacle or development occurs. Neither is right, nor wrong. I had a NRA Metallic Cartridge Reloading class scheduled end August that got bumped to end October. I want to find out what I still don't know in a structured setting before I actually start hand loading again. I had a self-inflicted close call in 1984 that fortunately occurred while plinking with a more experienced coworker, which could have gone very, very badly if I'd been plinking alone that day.

    There are extemists, the foolhardy that charge ahead no matter what, and those who turn study into the cliche'd "paralysis by analysis" never taking action. Neither one of us fits those extreme mold in our approaches. There's room for information exchange and broadening in both directions.

    I have a copy of the Hodgdon 2020 Annual Manual, it has load data for 158 grain lead semiwadcutter bullets in 357 Magnum, but not using Alliant Unique powder. Lee's manual more or less collates published data from other sources into one spot at one snapshot in time. My copy has data for 158 grain copper plated in 357 Magnum, but only for Ramshot Zip and Solo 1000 powders.

    One thing I've found is the more reading I've done, the more valuable I've found having multiple references to compare and contrast has become - for me. You might try it and find what you need to move forward in one particular area after looking at maybe two additional references. Some sources have more explanation about why's than others, some I've had to ferret out nuggets here and there for me from all the chest beating about how superior that brand's products are than all competitors - past, present, and undoubtedly the future.

    You took the step to openly ask questions. I did my best to help with what I see and have come across, despite not having hand loaded a cartridge in over 35 years. You took it in a constructive way - not everyone would, not everyone would have even posted a question. You haven't blown yourself or any firearm yet, and based on that, you're still available to ask questions. No harm no foul on results, but thee are alternative methodologies available.

    Some folks don't use published load data very much preferring to use software like Quickload for their objectives. I don't plan to purchase Quickload any time soon for myself until I've been handloading from published data that's often available at low o no financial cost. I've seen some folks make a Quickload run for someone who doesn't have Quickload for a combination of components not found in published data and may not exist in published data - like the combination you've been using. Just another avenue. There's subscriptions to websites like LoadData.com some folks use. Those can give some sort of "sanity check" but have their limitations and assumptions as well.

    If those velocities haven't been excessively leading your barrel using plated bullets, you're not being constrained by the reason Speer publishes as their upper velocity limit - different set of conditions. What upper elocity limit does Berry’s Bullets recommend for he ones you're using, and how are you measuring or estimating the muzzle velocity of your loads? The difference in hardness (malleability) of a copper or gilding metal jacket vs copper plated lead vs plain unjacketed lead and frictional effects during travel from cartridge mouth to muzzle aren't the same.

    There are some real considerations in some instances for jacketed vs non-jacketed projectiles. If you read more of the text you'll see warnings about some jacketed bullets at certain velocities an leave the jacket in the barrel but the lead core continues on - so probably punches a hole in the target leaving the shooter no reason to suspect firing the next round will result in a high speed collision inside the barrel. There's also conditioons where there's so much ot as it cuts a non-jacketed bullet around its perimeter on their way along and out the barrel in some cases. I'll say up front though I've really only skimmed most of the information for consideration on non-jacketed bullets because I personally don't plan on using any for the near future anyway. But I've become aware there can be unexpected results due to differences in bullet construction - jacketed vs non-jacketed, specialty Trophy Bonded Bear Claw & Sledgehammer Solid bullets vs their direct competitors (also monometal bullets vs lead jacketed bullets) all sorts of things I'd still be pretty much unaware of if I'd just continued purchasing factory loaded ammunition.

    If you're ever in the Alamo City area let me know, and we can compare notes on where we're at and what we've done and what we think is next and spend some range time together. Even before COVID-19 my travel has been considerably reduced.
     
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  3. Todd NE WY

    Todd NE WY Member

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    @jski I would spend some time perusing all of the online manuals you can find.

    I have the Western Powders(which lists Berry bullets) and the Alliant Powder manuals up on my computer most of the time just for quick reference if I see a bullet type that is available to order. Also online for free are at least Nosler and possibly Speer, Hornady is $.99/caliber. You don't have to have a reference of the exact bullet and powder you have but you can gain an understanding of reloading the various types of bullet construction when the same weight and type of bullet are listed side by side(Western Powders Manual) but the charge weights vary depending on the jacket construction. What you will see with reference to your original question is if the bullets are of the same construction and weight then it comes down to the amount of bearing surface based on the shape of the bullet. The bearing surface is the amount of the bullet in constant contact with the barrel as the bullet travels down it. If you find a load for one shape of bullet and another bullet of the same caliber, construction and weight that has the same amount of bearing surface you can use that load as a guideline.

    Look at the information concerning the various coatings, plating and jackets offered by the different manufactures, their websites can be a wealth of information about how to load them even if they don't have specific load data.

    You don't seem to completely understand bullet construction based on your reference to your Berry bullets being both swaged and plated. What is inside of a plated, coated or jacketed bullet bears little on how fast you can load them. Bullets vary in ability to withstand velocity(to much velocity causing leading) from least to most are swaged lead, cast lead, coated lead, plated lead, jacketed lead. Now taking it a step further that core material makes a very big difference when an object is struck with the bullet, you swaged(soft) lead core is going to deform more than a core that is of a harder material.

    I hope this helps.
    Todd
     
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  4. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

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    Now, if you go up one directory level from the main directory in the link I posted way back in this thread, you'll find two more directories.

    This one includes Complete Load Data for the 357 Magnum, which doesn't include Berry’s Bullets but it does ave quite a bit of load data using Unique both with various jacketed bullets and non-jacketed bullets including 158 grains.


    http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Caliber Specific Load Data/

    And the other directory contains vintage load data from various powder companies, including Alliant. I honestly haven't looked through them WRT 357 Magnum and 158 grain non-jacketed bullets.

    http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor Supplied Load Data/
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  5. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    If you're using Unique for .357 mag, you aren't going to get Magnum velocities. So you might as well just find a load that's accurate, and not worry too much about velocity.

    Regarding charge weights and bullet construction: The more you explore the world of reloading and handloading, the more you're going to realize that data will only take you so far. The Berry's bullets are a great example of that. There's not much published test data out there for plated lead...yet. The safest thing to do is only use the exact components called out in the data you have available. But if you wish to deviate and substitute projectiles, you need to understand the difference between the projectile called out in the data and the one you are substituting. And really, you should start with data using a projectile as close to the substitute bullet as you can find. Though there are certainly other factors to consider.

    And if you're really not sure, you can always just ask the question "Hey guys, I want to load a 158gr Berry's plated lead RN bullet in .357 Magnum using Unique. I can't seem to find any good data, can anyone help with a Starting and Max charge?" I'm confident someone will be able to help you.
     
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  6. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    Plated bullets by Berry's, Rainier, etc. generally recommends using data for lead bullets. Below is data for lead cast bullets using RCBS cast bullets with Unique powder from the "Complete Reloading Manual for the .357 Magnum One Book/One Caliber. This Unique Data is for standard primers and NOT magnum primers. 357RCBS158gr.jpg
     
  7. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    Normally with a plated bullet your most accurate load will be near mid jacketed data. Berry's use to recommend starting with lead and working up to mid jacketed.

    Like said you not using a Magnum powder so just find something that's accurate.
     
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  8. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

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    I found Berry’s Bullets provides quite a bit of guidance WRT load data to use on their website in the FAQ section, which is also where the answer to my question about what muzzle velocity limit does Berry’s Bullets advise for their products, along with a wealth of other information regarding their products.

    https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq

    The OP's posted velocity data from his loads aren't exceeding, or even pushing, the velocity specified by Berry’s Bullets for those particular bullets of 1250 fps. Berry’s Bullets says their maximum muzzle velocity guidelines are also printed on each box of bullets but that doesn't guarantee resellers include that info with their packages.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  9. noylj

    noylj Member

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    >The Speer lead bullets are swaged lead, which are very soft
    Kill this myth. All commercial swaged bullets today are about 13 BHN. All the cast bullets I've ever made are 11-13 BHN and all have worked in all my pistol, including .44 Rem Mag and all my rifles with gas checks as needed.
     
  10. noylj

    noylj Member

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    What is the COL of the RN and JHP rounds? JHPs will normally have a shorter COL if the seating die is not adjusted. One can load a JHP to about the same COL as a RN, in which case there will be MORE internal case capacity and slightly higher powder charges are needed to reach the same velocity.
    Finally, loads are now evaluated by pressure traces of time vs pressure and many loads are cut back due to detected pressure spikes for that powder and bullet. Many pet loads are now considered dangerous by the industry due to these findings.
    So, you will see some "strange" results because the companies now know a LOT more about the internal ballistics of their loads.
     
  11. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

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    The answer to what Berry’s Bullets puts forward about COL are found at the FAQ section of the Berry’s Bullets website - which I posted the web link to in my post just prior to your posts.

    "All" is quite an encompassing term.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  12. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    Not according to Speer.
    --------------------------
    inquiry 10-14-20

    Question:
    Hi. What is the brinell hardness of your swaged handgun 38 caliber lead bullets. i could not find this information in your load manual or on the website. Thank you!

    -------------------------------
    email response 10-15-20

    These are very close to 5-8 in Brinell hardness.

    Cody B./Technical Service Rep.
    CCI/Speer/Alliant
    2299 Snake River Ave.
    Lewiston, ID 83501
    (866)286-7436
     
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  13. Hanshi

    Hanshi Member

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    This thread has gotten rather involved; and I'm not up to esoteric answers. I've been reloading for half a century and still learn something new each time sit down at the reloading bench. I'll just add a couple of thoughts that I don't think have been brought up. Lead bullets are "slicker" than jacketed bullets. Example: my .357 load for a 158 grn JHP with 15 grns of 2400 powder gives some 1280 fps. But if I substitute a 158 grn gc swc it's moving at 1420 fps. I don't, and never really have, like Unique. I do use it from time to time but not much. Unique is good for "mid range loads" and fails at magnum loads. A slower powder is called for in true magnum cartridges. In handguns the swaged lead bullets can't take the high velocities attained by firing jacketed bullets. Hard cast bullets can lead badly in revolvers but perform splendidly in semi-autos. This is due to the forcing cone and gas blow-by which deposits solder-like lead in the forcing cone and often up the barrel. This is just FWIW.
     
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  14. jski

    jski Member

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    What’s been your experience with plated (not to be confused with jacketed) bullets?
     
  15. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

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    Personally, the most important safety consideration I saw in the Berry’s Bullets FAQ had to do with jacket separation probability - y'know, what I posted about earlier about different materials having different friction factors and incidents where the jacket remains in the barrel but a portion of the lead core continues downrange, leaving a situation where firing the next cartridge results in a collision inside the barrel. Reading all those FAQ points wouldn't be harmful for anyone.

    https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq
     
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  16. noylj

    noylj Member

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    Wow, Speer must be crazy. Three years ago they told my 12-13 BHN and my own look at their bullets showed the same thing. Wow.
     
  17. Metal God

    Metal God Member

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    I shoot them all . FMJ , JHP , Plated , hard lead , cast lead . Speer’s cast lead is soft , I don’t know how soft but it’s the softest bullet I shoot .
     
  18. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    Speer's lead handgun bullets are swaged, not cast. See post #37 for hardness.
     
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  19. Metal God

    Metal God Member

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    Yes sorry, I miswrote that , point still the same
     
  20. Skgreen

    Skgreen Member

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    :evil: And TMJ's (among other Speer offerings) are not actually jacketed, (in the traditional sense),,, but instead, thick plated. :what:

    Lotsa different factors out there. All one can do 'early on' is to try and familiarize themselves with the basics and avoid starting w/MAX ANYTHING loads.

    One (very) basic rule of thumb is that bullets of similar construction***/weight take about the same amount of charge.
    (*** Construction, meaning lead/cast/plated/jacketed, etc and not so much HP vs RN vs FN, FB vs BT, etc.)

    Enjoy your journey! There's lots to be learned, and never stop learning! :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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