HYPO--Pellet Guns--is lethal response OK?

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Cosmoline

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The thread about kids shooting at a crowd with pellet guns brought this to mind. If you were being shot at with a pellet gun, and knew it was a pellet gun, would you be justified in using lethal force to stop the attack? They can be fatal, though obviously they aren't usually going to be.
 
I will have no way of knowing if it is a pellet gun or a .44 Magnum until I pick it up off the floor. If I get shot or shot at I will stop the attack. No one shoots anything at me without my shooting back!
 
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Lethal force is only to be used against potentially lethal force. If you do otherwise, you better have a good story.
 
It's a real quote! He's the funniest politico EVAR. Here's the excerpt, from what would have been a bone dry Pentagon Q&A in anyone else's hands:

-----
Q: Sir, thank you, thank you very much for being here with us today. I'm Colonel Mike Cospey (sp). I work in the NMJIC. I have a question on Saudi Arabia.

Rumsfeld: You work where?

Q: In the NMJIC. The National Joint Military Intelligence Center.

Rumsfeld: Right. Right.

Q: And I have a question on Saudi Arabia --

Rumsfeld: I thought you said you were a ninja. (Laughter, applause.)

Q: I do have a black suit on, and actually -- I think I forgot the question. (Laughter.)
---
 
Please remember the definition of justifiable homicide: Deadly force used against a threat which a reasonable person would believe is capable of causing imminent death or seriously bodily harm.

Shooting someone who is shooting at you with a BB gun--when you KNOW it's a BB gun has a term too:

It's called murder.
 
How would I know in advance? And if I did, I would have to take him to the hospital to have the remains dug out of his head while I filed my police report. It would still be Ag. Assault on me.
 
How would I know in advance?
Click to expand...
You see kids shooting a gun and hear a 'pop' instead of a 'BANG'

I would say no, I wouldn't use letal force. Get out of range, which for a BB gun is probably about 40-50 yards. Call the cops. Although most states treat BB guns as deadly weapons, I'm sure a DA would have a field day if you claimed self-defense in shooting a kid with a BB gun, assuming you knew it was a BB gun beforehand.

Now if someone tries to hold me up with a realistic looking BB gun, I'm not going to take the time to find out if it's real or not. I would use lethal force in that case.
 
I don't think I'd fire, but consider that some pellet guns are capable of firing at 1,000+ fps. That's very deadly. These guns are usually single shot though so I don't think you would be justified to fire if you could get out of the line of fire while the shooter is reloading. You're probably talking about pistols or semi-auto rifles though which have a lower velocity but still... They can be and are deadly.
 
I didn't shoot the kids that were shooting me with BB guns. I did forcibly take them and break them into peices on the sidewalk before calling the cops.

:D

Those things sting like a beeyatch; made me angry ;) .
 
If it was a plain old bb gun, I don't think you would have a right to use deadly force.

But if it was a high power pellet rifle......That could be a different story.
Ever see a 9mm pellet rifle? In some states you can hunt small game wit a pellet rifle. I've seen some pellet rifles that are deadly.

Would I shoot back.......Thats a hard call, can't really say until it was happening. If I felt that my life was really in danger..............I would shoot. Again it all depends on what is actually happening.

Abenaki
 
It would be OK in many (Most? All?) places depending on the set of circumstances.

A pellet gun, as already pointed out, is capable of causing serious bodily injury.
 
For those of you who have not been present when guns are fired unexpectedly in unexpected locations, they sound more like a pop than a bang. In fact, we trained our officers to call out "GUN" or "SHOTS FIRED" because they sound nothing like a gun on a range which you expect to hear. The most common reaction to an unexpected shot? People stand around and say "what was that?" Been there, seen (heard) that. 5 AD's in offices (each a long story, none of them mine).

The only way I would "know" it was a pellet gun would be if I had examined it just before being shot. Otherwise, they must be presumed to be using deadly force.
 
Kobun nailed it.

People forget the "threat of grave bodily harm" part, in addition to threat of death. :rolleyes:

What if said shooter is "only" using a .22? Isn't it unfair of you to be blasting back with a .45 or 12er?

Can't go outgunning people now....that would be unfair....
 
Deadly force is authorized when there is a imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of grave bodily harm or death to the innocent. A pellet drilling through your eye, destroying it, constitutes grave bodily harm, no?

Further, you must recall that we are only expected to act with the knowledge that a reasonable person would. If you were to get struck on exposed flesh by a pellet, it's going to hurt quite a bit. Might even cause a puncture. How many people are going to sit around, evaluate whether it's "just" a pellet or a .22 LR hit, and you haven't felt the pain yet due to the initial trauma?

As a rule of thumb, if someone points what you reasonably believe is a weapon at you and you reasonably believe they have the ability and opportunity to place your life in jeopardy, you can defend yourself.

Crap. That's what I get for posting after reading only the first couple of responses. All the good stuff is "taken." Ah well.
 
I'm going to start carrying a pellet pistol, in addition to the .40, just in case i need to respond in kind.:rolleyes:

If your in the middle of a field, and some kids start firing at you with pellet rifles... I guess return fire.

If you can get behind any kind of cover... Your completely safe, just hide and shout a warning, or leave. Return fire if they try and get around your cover.
 
Take an Ayoob course. He will talk about a homicide case where the victim was killed by a pellet gun. Having taken that course I now have knowledge that a pellet gun can cause death. I have my class notes from the course to back up my pre-existing knowledge should the prosecutor wish to see them.
 
I've seen obvious preteen boys walking around with pellet guns. I would be loathe to fire on one even if they raised the gun towards me.

However, if I was hit or my companion was hit then the exigency of the moment might cause one to return fire. Explaining it would be a bear.

You have going to have to figure out the expected value of getting a pellet in you and the costs and risks associated with that vs. the costs and risks of trial and/or civil suit of lighting up a kid.

Adults are different.
 
How are adults different? Is it OK to be shot by a child (with anything), but not by an adult? Does it matter if you are killed by a child or an adult?

In essence, if the shooting is intentional (not accidental), it needs to STOP. Drug gangs in big cities have been hireing juveniles, quite young ones, to commit murders because they only go to jail until they are 18 or 21.

And, as others have posted, are you going to pause, examine the wound, decide it was a pellet gun and not a .22LR, and formulate a response based on what you were hit with?

Not a flame, an attempt to get you to consider your response in light of some serious questions. I do not seek your response here, but hope you will take the time for some reflection on what you have posted.
 
Thank you for a rather pompous answer. It is obvious that you did not truly understand my point.

You must consider what are the probabilities of getting the best outcome for yourself at the end of the process.

I postulated a scenario where you clearly see that you are facing a pre-adolescent child. Perhaps that child is the evil scion of a drug lord but you can play that fantasy's odds against the odds it is just a stupid kid.

Next consider the odds that you take a pellet and suffer truly serious injury. I know that folks lose eyes and have been killed. But it is unlikely.

However, if you shoot the evil Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer in an efficient manner - let's say you Mozambique the poor ol' farm boy, I bet the odds are orders of magnitude greater that:

1. You have serious legal jeopardy and even if no-billed, you will many thousands of dollars of legal expenses. Even if not guilty, hear comes the civil trial with its notorious lesser standards of proof that you are one crazed gun loonie. Yes, your honor, I read on on a tactical list that I should shoot a child because:

"How are adults different? Is it OK to be shot by a child (with anything), but not by an adult? Does it matter if you are killed by a child or an adult?

In essence, if the shooting is intentional (not accidental), it needs to STOP. Drug gangs in big cities have been hireing juveniles, quite young ones, to commit murders because they only go to jail until they are 18 or 21."

2. You will be ostracized at work and in the community

3. If you have a family, it is quite possible that your family relations will suffer from the stress.

4. You may have to move.

So given the odds of the latter set of events is much higher than the farm boy killing you with a pellet gun - reason would suggest trying to avoid shooting him. Of course, Ayoob can appear at your trial if you prefer.

Not a flame, an attempt to get you to consider your response in light of some serious questions. I do not seek your response here, but hope you will take the time for some reflection on what you have posted.

PS, I have been in the field and seen the evil farm boy - clearly not the hip-hop sentry of the drug lord. Said child was shooting a clear air gun. I yelled at him to be careful. Perhaps, I should have just immediately fired a Federal Tactical 12 gauge slug at him. That's what I had in my shotgun.

The mind is the best weapon. Use it .
 
Sir, Obviously you and I took two differing views of the limited facts given in this situation. While you envisioned the farmboy potting away at dirt clods in the country, I saw a darker picture: One of the "black trench coated" delinquent, intentionaly targeting people with some form of gun.

Thus, your conclusions are correct for what you saw.

I see my conclusions as correct for what I saw.



Your choices may vary.
 
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