Non-lethal options for HD

[Gouranga]

So the thread on the knife attacker got me thinking. For those willing to share, what, if any, non-lethal weapons do you keep for HD? I have been heavily considering adding more to the house.

A couple considerations as well is state law on the use of deadly force. If someone if in my yard, but not meeting 4 criteria which represent he is a deadly threat, I cannot even pull a gun. However, I could use pepper spray, or some non-lethal device to remove him.

Currently we have of course guns, but also a couple baseball bats in strategic locations. However, as non-lethal goes, a baseball bat can easily be lethal especially with a good dump of adrenaline and its useful range brings a bg in closer than I would prefer.

As I said above, I was thinking maybe pepper spray or something I can use at greater range than a bat. Any thoughts? Anyone care to share on non-obvious options?

 

[Six]

I'm not going to go out swinging a bat at a person in my yard. There's a lawsuit and criminal charges waiting to happen. If it's safe enough that a less lethal option is the most appropriate tool, then it's also safe enough for me to lock the damn door and stay inside. Let the cops deal with drunks, crazies, and thieves.

Once they come through the door, I really don't want a less lethal option.

IMHO, less lethal may be a good option for when out in public where you can't easily retreat or find a defensive position, but has no role to play in home defense.

 

[uspJ]

good topic op.

i keep oc and a small non collapsable baton (about 20") at home. a friend of mine has a T ball bat that he keeps by the door, it's small, handy and easily in reach should he need it.

i also have a couple of two piece pool cues that i keep them around the house as the butt ends can be used as a club/ baton should i not be within reach of my other one, also the screw end could be used to stabbing weapon should i have to resort to such.

would less-lethal ammo fall under this category? i have given serious consideration to getting some of the rubber buckshot rounds and keep them in an old double barell i've got.

 

[Gouranga]

See that is an area where I would take action. Someone in my yard, is already within my perimeter. I would call the cops but I also prefer to take action (at range if possible) to remove them from my perimeter before they get to my door. Once someone is coming through my door, lethal action will be taken. If I can de-escalate/eliminate that individual before they get to that step with an effective non-lethal means that is a win/win for me. As this is an adversary I know nothing about, I would prefer to not engage hand to hand.

One advantage I have is I can go out, my wife can lock the door and she is the next level of organic protection with a gun behind the door. So that ring of protection is solid still. I can go out without compromising the security of the home. I prefer to meet the threat outside that way.

Having the non-lethal means to engage at range greater than 6-10 ft would be key. Obviously if I am going out, my sidearm is in my holster on my hip. Should the bg pull a weapon he will be met with lethal force.

The other thing is this, in my immediate neighborhood, we have a near mafia type of watch. With the cluster of houses around me, we back each other up. Anyone I confront on my front lawn, will quickly be dealing with multiple neighbors. We simply do not play and this group mentality has worked in the past. When we had a dirt biker decide to start with my neighbor across the street. He calmed quick when he looked over his shoulder and saw 3 guys walking towards him.

I have heard plenty of scenarios like that. Had a friend who had some drunk come up to his house, banging on windows and doors. He could tell the man was obviously highly intoxicated, he called the police (20-30 minute time for them to arrive). He has kids in his house and an abusive drunk beating the doors and windows. Sooner or later that situation is going to escalate and he will be forced to use lethal force when he gains entry to his home. Being drunk he is very likely to not respond to the sight of a firearm and a warning to back off. You also give the drunk control of initiation of the conflict.

Instead, he could go outside, meet the drunk outside. He would be able to control the initiation of the contact. Hand to hand with a drunk is not something I would like to try. With pepper spray (which may or may not be effective on a drunk), he could immobilize him without any serious bodily injury to anyone involved and the cops can clean up the mess when they arrive instead of the coroner.

Don't get me wrong, my families lives are much more important than the drunk, however, I would rather end the night without anyone in the morgue. If he gets in my home, or his gaining entry is imminent he is going to die. If I have a clear opportunity to de-escalate the situation with less than lethal force, I think that is a plus.

That being said, I am asking this and describing this to learn from y'all so fire away...

 

[Fred Fuller]

If he gets in my home, or his gaining entry is imminent he is going to die.

Are you really sure this is the line you want to etch in granite? After all, you opened a thread on less lethal alternatives for home defense and then moved straight to nothing-but-lethal in your second post on the thread? What gives?

lpl

 

[Gouranga]

Are you really sure this is the line you want to etch in granite?

IMO, yes. Less than lethal ends at my door. Once they are gaining entry to my home or in my home, their threat to my children and family in my mind has gone up drastically. Their intent has also narrowed as they as unlawfully gaining entry to an occupied home. When they are knowingly entering an occupied home they very likely have plans to deal with the occupants. In either case, they have gotten close enough that I no longer have time and distance as a luxury to better ascertain their intent.

Don't get me wrong, I am not sitting here RAMBO style looking forward to such a day. I do not in any way relish the thought of taking a life, even in a legally justified manner. I would imagine doing so would fill me with a measure of guilt I cannot fathom. If I can avoid use of lethal force without unreasonably sacrificing the safety of my family, I will do so. However, with 4 kids in a 2,000 sq ft single floor home, once they are inside they are already unacceptably close to my kids. Even from the farthest possible entry point.

Outside my home there is still a couple layers of defense between them and my family.

Now of course when I am saying this I am thinking of a certain number of circumstances (Night time, unknown threat posture of intruder, no clear view of possible armament). If the threat came as a broad daylight incursion (I frequently work from home), with just me in the house, in a particular part of my home where I could see and ascertain threat posture, I would be much more likely to utilize a non-lethal response and/or a warning. So I guess that statement on lethal force, is less concrete than it sounds.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Garden hose is an option - especially for animals and children.
Fire extinguisher.

From a different perspective, reportedly 90% of home invaders that didn't think to bring a weapon will stop by your kitchen and take something from the knife block. So not leaving the knife block on the kitchen counter is a good idea. As a corollary, look around and decide if obvious weapons such as bats, shovels, samurai sword collections, can be stowed so as to reduce problems.

 

[easyg]

See that is an area where I would take action. Someone in my yard, is already within my perimeter. I would call the cops but I also prefer to take action (at range if possible) to remove them from my perimeter before they get to my door.

1) Put up a fence around your yard.
2) On that fence place signs saying "No Trespassing"and "Beware of Dog".
3) Put a dog or two inside that fence.

This seems to work rather well around here.

 

[Gouranga]

1) Put up a fence around your yard.
2) On that fence place signs saying "No Trespassing"and "Beware of Dog".
3) Put a dog or two inside that fence.

Done, done, and done, at least in the back. The front of the house does not have a fence but the yard is very open, we are at the top of a hill (looking down on the yard) and I have a clear view around the doorway and entire front of the house. We also got some nice lighting and wireless motion tripped IP cameras which let us know what is going on around the place.

 

[natman]

would less-lethal ammo fall under this category? i have given serious consideration to getting some of the rubber buckshot rounds and keep them in an old double barell i've got.

IMO, you have no business discharging a firearm at a human being unless you are justified in using lethal force. And if you are justified using lethal force you are going to desperately want to be able to supply it.

Rubber buckshot is for the cops to use in riot control.

 

[JShirley]

Any tool that has the potential to stop a threat must be less lethal, not non-lethal. When I was in Afghanistan, for instance, I took a heavy dose of OC. I was in fear for my life for a while, because my breathing was so difficult, and OC has killed people. Same thing with Tasers.

If they were sold to ordinary citizens, and reasonably priced, a paintball marker loaded with Pepperballs would be a good tool to deliver a punishing and potentially disabling blow to human or animal threats at a distance.

There are no magic defensive tools. If it's powerful enough to stop a threat, it has the potential to kill that threat, even if it's not designed to do so. Also, this thread appears to be in the wrong forum.

John

 

[Deanimator]

My "nonlethal" defense is to lock the door, call the cops and stay inside until they come.

If you force your way into my home, you're probably going to get shot.

 

[Manco]

Except for OC spray (and even that's questionable), all of my options are potentially lethal: pistol, knives, baseball bat, my mitts, and most important of all, my clean conscience. Maybe I should get a cattle prod to back up the OC spray, or one of those combination Taser & pepper ball guns in case there is no need to kill anybody.

 

[easyg]

Just curious, but under what circumstances would you be using these "less than lethal" means?

Give us some possible scenarios.

 

[Gouranga]

Me personally, I could envision a few. One thing in NC for example. A trespasser who refuses to leave my property but does not show any lethal weapons. A criminal in the process of stealing my car out of my driveway or breaking into my shed without directly attacking me. I mentally deranged person who charges me while I am out in the yard (without visible weapons).

In these cases deadly force is legally considered an illegal escalation of force. I can use "soft hands" to stop them, or I can call the police and hope insurance replaces everything. In the case of engagement, I would rather not go into hand to hand unless there was no other choice. Particularly the case of the deranged man, I would not be able to avoid or retreat, confrontation is coming. I have no idea what the mans level of training is for hand to hand. Might be, I could easily mangle him, might be he is an ex-Seal who just came from from Afghanistan whose PTSD has caused him to flip out.

Something like OC or another weapon at range could be used to end that confrontation before it escalates to a lethal force situation. I could think of a few others, the main ones I come up with would be cases where outright lethal force is not legally justified, retreat may not be a viable option, but confrontation is likely to ensue.

 

[hso]

Anyone I confront on my front lawn, will quickly be dealing with multiple neighbors. We simply do not play and this group mentality has worked in the past. When we had a dirt biker decide to start with my neighbor across the street. He calmed quick when he looked over his shoulder and saw 3 guys walking towards him.

Do you have your neighbors on speed dial? Can they all be called at once? Have you all discussed supporting each other in these sorts of confrontations? When a neighborhood group supports a neighbor it very quickly changes the dynamic of a previously one on one confrontation.

Put a fence around your yard if you're concerned about the potential for people to start pounding on your door. Such a barrier creates a psychological barrier as well to those that are specifically focused on you and your house. Create layers of defense so that the random BG is progressively less at ease as they get to your door. Big dog house visible from the front or back. Lights. Gate on porch. Make them "run the gauntlet" and they're less prone to want to.

Announce you've called the police AND the neighborhood watch over a PA from the safety of your home. Put the lights on them and tell them they're on "Candid Camera" and the image has been sent to the PD email.

John's suggestion of pepperballs is excellent in that it gives you less lethal ranged ability.

Remember that there are no non-lethal weapons, just less-lethal, that might be both practical and effective.

BTW, "pepper sprays" have pluses and minuses when used at the short range they typically cover. Fogs present a nice broad front that act as a barrier and help reduce the need to aim, but they're subject to being blown away, or worse, back on you. Streams have a greater range and are less likely to blow back, but can. Foams have shorter range yet, but you're unlikely to get blow back.

 

[Cornbred]

I can think of several reasons to use less than leathal. If you have a daughter and you check on her in the middle of the night and you see a her boyfriends naked as climbing out the window. You may want to kill him but probably not the best of ideas. I am sure glad he didnt have a gun. Peole fighting in the front yard. Someone breaking into my shed. People vandalizing my property. I can go on and on and on. Yes call the police however if i deem it appropriate to take some action before they get there i would rather have an option other than shooting them. The people are going to say move away, build a fence or one of the other typical responses. Though good ideas not fool proof. Again still have options other than shooting.

 

[JShirley]

It's less lethal. "Less than lethal" would mean that it could not kill, which is a poor and incorrect way to think.

 

[308win]

If you force your way into my home, you're probably going to get shot.

Me too; must be an Ohio thing. Depending on the circumstances and where my family, pets and I am in relation to the intruder he may get a warning to leave first.

 

[Green Dragoon]

Having used several Less then Lethals in real life, they have good and bad qualities.

Pepper Spray varies in type and effectiveness based on brand and strenght. I have used it and have had it work great, I have also had in fail miserably. Also you never ever know where the cloud is going if that is what you are using. The chances of hitting yourself or other non-intended targets is high. Also the can have a tendencey to leak over time and when you need it they might be empty.

Expandable batons for the most part are useless. There is not enough weight behind them to do a lot of damage. And you run into liablity issues if you hit someone in zones that are not allowed , head, joints etc, in other words the areas where they are effective.

Tazers amd other such devices work well, but the down side is that you can usually engage only one target and that is it. I am looking forward to shotgun launched tazer devices which would give you more then one shot and no wires to keep you in the area. In other words you could shoot and retreat to safety.

I live in a state with your sefl defense rights do not end at your door step so we have less of an issue then many folks have. Well there is my dimes worth

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where you (as a civilian) would be legally able to use an impact weapon but unable to use a firearm. Or a situation where you would want to. If someone is dangerous enough where I can legally bash them with something, I would rather not find out that my weapon of choice isn't enough.

 

[cannibal4]

Around the house for my wife's use we keep plenty of wasp spray. I know she would never use a hand gun and a good defense is wasp spray, get it in their eyes and they are blind for a day or two, plus you don't have to get close, it will spray 20 - 30 feet depending on the brand. My S&W is in my night stand but she would never use it..

 

[Guillermo]

to answer the OP...no I do not have any less than lethal weapons at my disposal for self defense.

When I go to bed there are a minimum of 3 weapons in the room.

A handgun or two for the "did you hear something?" AKA most probably a false alarm

A 12 gauge with triple O buck for "that was a crash in the house!!!" AKA DEFCOM III short range lethality welcome for the home invader

and an AR with a light for "is that our car alarm?" AKA anything outside threat that would require more reach

as to the car alarm, I know many of you would not shoot anyone over "stuff" and I can respect that. I really really hate a thief and cannot say as to whether I would shoot someone jacking my stereo or not. I am guessing that watching some jerk leaning into my car at 2:47 am and I am going to perforate him.

Shoud I add some pepper spray? I really don't see why.

 

[Fred Fuller]

OK, folks. Time to get real here. This thread is on the ragged edge of being closed, for several reasons. Here they are in a nutshell:

Number one, the use of any term other than LESS LETHAL here will cease as of now. No matter who told you what else when or under what circumstances, the ONLY acceptable term at this point is LESS LETHAL. The simple fact is that much of anything used in self defense beyond strong language can be lethal. We must all continually strive for clarity of thought in the practice of self defense, and clarity of thought is reflected in the precise use of the language.

Number two, we here at THR go round and round over the civilian/armed citizen use of things like rubber buckshot over and over and over. Some here may not yet have been party to those discussions, and I can't hold you responsible for not knowing what you don't know. But now hear this. First, ANYTHING fired out of a shotgun- including blanks- can and has been lethal. We had a LEO killed near here in a training scenario by a blank a few years ago. Second, any use of a firearm is lethal force as far as the law is concerned, and if you pull the trigger on a firearm, you'd best be legally justified in using lethal force. You may prefer to worry solely about Problem One (the gunfight), but soon enough Problem Two (the legal fight) will have to be dealt with, if you did anything wrong/illegal in handling Problem One. Therefore it pays to give sufficient consideration in advance to both problems.

Third, laws on self defense differ widely from state to state and sometimes even in specific jurisdictions within a given state. That's a given, and we cannot make broad assumptions without knowing the specifics of the law in the state in question. So we aren't going to get into broad brush legal arguments, and it does little good to woof that "wall, in XX we just shoot 'em." It is the individual responsibility of every person here to be adequately familiar with the laws on self defense- both black letter law AND case law- in their jurisdiction and any jurisdiction where they intend to exercise their right of self defense. What is perfectly legal in State X may well get you tossed in the clink in State Y. So be sure you know and can apply the self defense laws in your jurisdiction; be sure you have your feces coagulated well enough to be able to clearly articulate why you felt you had to do what you did, and have the business card of a good criminal defense attorney in your wallet.

And finally, please make up your mind to do your best to ADEE when possible. Where pulling a trigger is concerned, as my MIL always says about certain things- it isn't enough not to want to, you have to want not to. That's not to say you won't if forced to do so by circumstance you can clearly articulate afterwards, of course.

I hope this helps clarify some things that seriously need clarification...

lpl

 

[navyretired 1]

Boy if I can't have a gun I'll take a bat anytime if the intruder is gunless too. A baseball bat is a very lethal weapon and can cause as much damage as anything except a gun.
If they take our guns I'm going to bury a crate of Louisville Sluggers with my handguns.