Hypothetical: What to do if you are a former customer of an FFL now in trouble?

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iamkris

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Hypothetically...

  • if you had in the past used a "tabletop" FFL that maintained regular business hours for transfers or in-stock gun purchases (say 10-12 over a 2 year period)
  • if all your purchases were prior to the "four months ago" when the FFL officially lost his license (see story below)
  • if all purchases were 100% legit...signed copies of FFLs sent, 4473's filled out, waiting periods followed, etc
  • there were no bill of sale or receipts provided by the tranfer dealer for making the transfer
  • if that FFL was reportedly now "in trouble" with the ATF for illegally selling guns to undercover officers without an FFL or waiting the required 3-day period

Is there anything special you would do? What is the "normal" procedure for ATF...do they pour through the FFL's files and contact everyone who has purchased a gun?

As a side note, when a dealer no longer has their FFL01, what happens to the guns they "had in inventory"? Do they now belong to the former dealer "privately? Can they sell them citizen-to-citizen or does the inventory need to be dispositioned to another dealer?

Lastly, take your nausea medicine to read parts of the story below..."the guns were everywhere".

www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/s...18sep18,0,2245929.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout

chicagotribune.com
More than 600 firearms seized in Mundelein arrest
Tribune staff report

September 18, 2007

In what is believed to be the largest gun bust in Lake County history, undercover police seized more than 600 weapons from the home of a Mundelein man who allegedly was illegally selling guns from his residence, authorities said Monday.

Michael P. Sonka, 55, of the 900 block of Granville Street was arrested at his home Friday after he allegedly sold three 9 mm semiautomatic handguns and five boxes of 9 mm bullets to undercover officers from the Lake County Metropolitan Enforcement Group.

"It's definitely the largest gun seizure in Lake County," said Illinois State Police Master Sgt. Larry Lindenman, the enforcement group's director.

Sonka allegedly lacked the Federal Firearms License required for the sale of guns and failed to implement the required three-day waiting period before making the sale to the undercover officers.

After the weapons sale, authorities said, officers from the enforcement group and the Mundelein Police Department searched Sonka's home, where an additional 636 firearms were found, including rifles, submachine guns and .50-caliber handguns.

"The guns were everywhere," Lindenman said.

Sonka, who had lost his firearms license four months ago, faces trial on a felony count of illegal gun sales, Lindenman said.
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To answer the first question

Until it becomes a problem, i.e. someone actively questioning you, I wouldn't worry about it. FFLs get investigated fairly regularly from what I've seen but I've never been called about any of my purchases.
 
If he owned all those pistols as an FFL and then loses his license, can he still sell what he bought as an FFL via a private sale? Any restriction on that?

Was he still calling in for a back ground checks?
 
If you bought in a legal sale from a licensed FFL, you've got no problems.

As I've said numerous times, NEVER, EVER talk to the BATFE without a KNOWLEDGEABLE lawyer present. They are NOT your friends. Exercise your right to be silent at every opportunity.
 
I went to my local FFL today to pick up a CZ-52 I bought on a gun auction site. My FFL is a local pawn shop. When I arrived, I noticed two young (25-30) guys with ATF golf shirts on going through a pile of forms.

Made me slightly uncomfortable, knowing I had bought (legally of course) 15-20 weapons from this FFL over the last year or so. I hate having my name brought up to the ATF that many times, even though there is nothing illegal in any way in my collecting activities.

jw
 
Read Miranda

If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.

Of course, you DID say quickly. You'd want to reasearch that before hand and keep his card on hand.
 
If you had no convictions at the state or federal level that prevented you from buying firearms, then any problems with the sales would fall on the seller.
 
Good advice...so, again hypothetically, if the BATFE were to call to set up an appointment...where would one locate a knowledgeable lawyer quickly?
Click to expand...
My best friend here is my lawyer.

I would contact my state rifle/pistol association.
 
"...if all purchases were 100% legit..." That's all you need worry about. You're not responsible for his actions. If he doesn't submit any sales taxes, for example, that's not your problem.
"...Do they now belong to..." They likely become assets of his company, assuming he had one.
"...going through a pile of forms..." Likely a routine inspection.
 
if he was conducting the sales as a "business" still, he is probably cooked.

on the other hand, if the three officers had FOID cards, i dont see how it is any different than a private party sale. their is no wait for a private party sale in illinois, unless something has changed in the last few years, and i dont recall a limit on the amount of guns you can sell at one time.

the only sticking point i see on that is: can he sell inventory recieved as an FFL as a private party after the license loss?
 
Read Miranda... If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.
Click to expand...

Bad idea. Go ahead and spring for a private lawyer.

Alot of jurisdictions use a lottery system. All members of the bar within that jurisdiction have their names in the lottery, and are selected at random as court appointed attorneys.

Chances are very high that you'll end up with a lawyer that has absolutely no experience with criminal defense, much less be well versed pertaining to firearms.

And most attorneys hate this system, as its an annoyance, because it disrupts their private practice.
 
my wife sent me this story. she worked with the guy's wife for many years. i think he may have come to a party at our home once.
 
Originally posted by MASTEROFMALICE: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.

Of course, you DID say quickly. You'd want to reasearch that before hand and keep his card on hand.
Click to expand...

Not if your not under arrest.

I would not worry if everything was legal.

I do believe in IL that even non-FFLs sales (private sales) still require proof of an FOID card (IL thing) and a 1 or 3 day waiting period (depending if a longgun or handgun). And you are required to keep a record of the sale including whom it was sold, there name, and FIOD information.

Either way it sounds sketchy.
 
on the other hand, if the three officers had FOID cards, i dont see how it is any different than a private party sale. their is no wait for a private party sale in illinois
Click to expand...

Depends if the guns in question were considered part of his private collection, or if they were sale items recorded in the bound book.
 
there is no private party wait in illinois. it is recommended to get the foid information of the person you are selling the gun to, but not required, same goes if you are buying a gun from somebody, it is recommended that you get the sellers information....it is a cya thing.

even if they are part of the bound book, once his ffl is revoked what happens to his inventory? he paid for it. does it revert to his personal collection? if so, he would seem to be in the right, if not, what would happen, and why would he still have all the inventory there.
 
there is no private party wait in illinois. it is recommended to get the foid information of the person you are selling the gun to, but not required, same goes if you are buying a gun from somebody, it is recommended that you get the sellers information....it is a cya thing.
Click to expand...

almost.

if you make a private party sale of a gun in Illinois, the seller is required to keep a record of the sale, for 10 years.
 
Acquiring or Transferring Firearms - Private Citizen Transfer in Illinois
• Private Citizen is defined as "Any person who is not a Federal Firearms Licensed
(FFL) gun dealer who desires to acquire or transfer firearms.”
• Seller and Buyer must possess a valid FOID card.
• Seller and Buyer must verify local firearm ordinance requirements.
• Buyer must display his or her valid FOID card prior to handling the firearm.
• Buyer must abide by the State of Illinois waiting period before taking possession
of the firearm. The waiting period for a long gun is 24 hours and 72 hours for a
hand gun.
• Seller must keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date
of transfer.
• The record must contain the date of the transfer, the description, serial number,
or other information identifying the firearm if no serial number is available.
• Upon transfer of possession, the firearm must be unloaded and enclosed in
a case to transport.


so, I must humbly apologize, I was confusing laws from a few of the different places i have lived since I left Illinois and went into the Navy. This is straight off of the FOID website.

Belay my last.
 
once his ffl is revoked what happens to his inventory? he paid for it. does it revert to his personal collection?
Click to expand...

This has been asked three times in this thread. Anybody know the answer for IL residents?

Justin
 
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