I am not an AR guy, but I need your help
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someguy2800
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You should be able to build a real nice unit for $1000. I’m in mid build on a side charging 20” DMR/Hunting type of build, and I’ll have about that much in it. Not doing side charging would have saved a lot.
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Jessesky
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When I say approach I should clarify, I know it’s a good way off from 308, but a 6.5 123gr sencar at 2450fps, is much better to me than a .224 62gr at 2800. I’d like something that’s a step up from 5.56, affordable, and available, and packs a better punch for deer size game.
IndianaBoy
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The Grendel will do what you want on deer at all reasonable ranges for ethical hunting. And it will get you out to about a half mile while still staying supersonic. So you can do the long range paper punching thing if that interests you.
It will weigh a lot less than an AR10 as well. I don't own one but a good friend does. He has been doing solid work on deer with it for the last 3 years. Excellent terminal performance.
Varminterror
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Pretty well covered here:
• $1000 isn’t goin to buy/build a good quality AR-10
• Dang sure not getting a quality piston AR-10 built/bought for $1000
• Piston on an AR is not actually cleaner than a DI, short piston
• Piston AR’s are proven to be less reliable than DI short piston AR’s
• 6.5 Grendel is not a .308win by any stretch
• 6.5 Grendel will kill deer at any responsible hunting range
One (partial) error I did see - the Grendel is supersonic WELL past a half mile. Easily to 1100+.
• $1000 isn’t goin to buy/build a good quality AR-10
• Dang sure not getting a quality piston AR-10 built/bought for $1000
• Piston on an AR is not actually cleaner than a DI, short piston
• Piston AR’s are proven to be less reliable than DI short piston AR’s
• 6.5 Grendel is not a .308win by any stretch
• 6.5 Grendel will kill deer at any responsible hunting range
One (partial) error I did see - the Grendel is supersonic WELL past a half mile. Easily to 1100+.
Have you looked at the Ruger SR-762?
Not a 20" but a very nice rifle.
https://ruger.com/products/sr762/models.html
lots of people will say this, and you may already know, but piston guns don't run all that cleaner. My 5.56 middy stays cleaner than an AK/Mini type on the inside, as does a 20" when using decent ammo. Carbines blow some soot inside, but not too bad.
ar-newbie
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given your desire to hunt mid to large size game, I would suggest a dpms platform 308 or 6.5
Palmetto state armory carries both, in kit form or just buy a complete riflle, or upper and lower and attach them together. you could put together a nice ar10 for 6 or 7 hundred leaving you some optic money to kit it out.
This is the approach I took, and it turned out pretty well. Just pay attention to the buffer system, as PSA has been known to make a few minor parts mistakes on some of their shipped ar10 guns. I had to get a different buffer weight to sort the problem out, but that was the only issue encountered. Accuracy has been excellent.
Palmetto state armory carries both, in kit form or just buy a complete riflle, or upper and lower and attach them together. you could put together a nice ar10 for 6 or 7 hundred leaving you some optic money to kit it out.
This is the approach I took, and it turned out pretty well. Just pay attention to the buffer system, as PSA has been known to make a few minor parts mistakes on some of their shipped ar10 guns. I had to get a different buffer weight to sort the problem out, but that was the only issue encountered. Accuracy has been excellent.
someguy2800
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Just curious on your perspective on this. What do consider a good quality AR10?
I looked around for about 15 minutes and you could get a complete Aero upper, complete Aero lower, and a toolcraft BCG for like $800 if you shop around, and use the remainder for a trigger or AGB or whatever. Would that not be a quality AR10?
My own build I’m working on is below
Eisenach AR-30 side charging upper $250
Noreen billet lower $95
Toolcraft nitride BCG $95 (Black Friday sale)
Aero LPK with ergo grip $50
Extended rear pin $15
Handguard $55
Low grade rear charging handle $15
Bear creek side charging handle $20
Faxon 20” fluted barrel $290
Thread protector $15
Fulton A1 buffer and stock $130
Gas block and tube $40
Total = $1070
Do you see something here that’s not going to play well together?
Varminterror
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• You’re over $1,000 and haven’t paid shipping, tax, or transfer on anything, no sights, no mags, no optic mount, and no optic.
• I don’t build many AR-15’s without AGB’s, and I don’t build AR-10’s without them. $40 doesn’t cut it for my gas blocks. So much trouble can be avoided in any AR with an AGB.
• Not pretending a Faxon tube is trash, but it’s not a barrel I care to own. Price is getting CLOSE to sale price on great quality barrels, however, so I could bogey on $300 for a barrel, especially considering your overspend on the side charging upper. Trade $100 there and the price lines up well enough to wash.
• Not remotely pretending the mil-spec triggers in the Aero LPK is a good trigger. Reliable and durable, sure. Heavy, creepy, and gritty - yup, those too.
• Not sure which handguard you’re using for $55, if you like it, great. Add $100 to that for any of the FFT’s I have used of late, before sale/dealer/FFL pricing.
• Everything on that list really adds up functionally to a bare bones, mil-spec AR-10, save the side charger feature. I can’t pretend I have ever had interest in a bare bones, mil-spec AR-10. Too many compromises for me to even pick it up from the rack. 100% hard pass - trigger, stock, handguard, and gas system, barrel is a borderline, and the side charge and billet are weight adders - cool features and a bit of a cost adder, without significant value add. Since the guts are just the mil-spec guts I replace on everything else...
I tell folks to plan on $1300-1500 before optics to get into an AR-10. You can build an AR-15 for under $400, under $300 on the right sales, just like you can build a 10 for under $800 if the stars align. Is it anything someone will really want to own for anything more than plinking? That’s up to the shooter I suppose, but for me, no.
ETA: I do hold 10’s to a higher expectation than 15’s. Too much recoil, ammo cost, and weight for a shameless blasting toy, so it really should be more capable than the average 15 banger. If I’m going to put 40+ grains into a case and take that into my shoulder, I want a little more refinement in my rifle.
• I don’t build many AR-15’s without AGB’s, and I don’t build AR-10’s without them. $40 doesn’t cut it for my gas blocks. So much trouble can be avoided in any AR with an AGB.
• Not pretending a Faxon tube is trash, but it’s not a barrel I care to own. Price is getting CLOSE to sale price on great quality barrels, however, so I could bogey on $300 for a barrel, especially considering your overspend on the side charging upper. Trade $100 there and the price lines up well enough to wash.
• Not remotely pretending the mil-spec triggers in the Aero LPK is a good trigger. Reliable and durable, sure. Heavy, creepy, and gritty - yup, those too.
• Not sure which handguard you’re using for $55, if you like it, great. Add $100 to that for any of the FFT’s I have used of late, before sale/dealer/FFL pricing.
• Everything on that list really adds up functionally to a bare bones, mil-spec AR-10, save the side charger feature. I can’t pretend I have ever had interest in a bare bones, mil-spec AR-10. Too many compromises for me to even pick it up from the rack. 100% hard pass - trigger, stock, handguard, and gas system, barrel is a borderline, and the side charge and billet are weight adders - cool features and a bit of a cost adder, without significant value add. Since the guts are just the mil-spec guts I replace on everything else...
I tell folks to plan on $1300-1500 before optics to get into an AR-10. You can build an AR-15 for under $400, under $300 on the right sales, just like you can build a 10 for under $800 if the stars align. Is it anything someone will really want to own for anything more than plinking? That’s up to the shooter I suppose, but for me, no.
ETA: I do hold 10’s to a higher expectation than 15’s. Too much recoil, ammo cost, and weight for a shameless blasting toy, so it really should be more capable than the average 15 banger. If I’m going to put 40+ grains into a case and take that into my shoulder, I want a little more refinement in my rifle.
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IndianaBoy
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There is no need for a large frame rifle to hunt deer. 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and a plethora of other small frame cartridges are plenty for whitetail.
The question for the OP is how important is hunting and how important is longer range performance and how important is lightweight.
A 16" medium or light contour barrel 6.5 Grendel would be great for deer.
But if you want to 'do both' with this rifle and shoot longer range, you probably want at least a 20" barrel. You could go even longer if you want to squeeze out every ounce of ballistic performance, but returns are diminished beyond 20".
Just depends what you want to do with it.
someguy2800
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Well obviously optics and mounts are never included. Those prices included tax and shipping for what I paid for them, +25 for transfer. I do appreciate your honest feedback but your preferences don’t align with mine, which is fine.
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Jessesky
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I have rifles that cover all bases of game from small critters to class 4 game so I can hunt anything if I need. This gun would be a general purpose truck/ranch gun. My ideal is:
-A light rifle
-Can take a deer at 300
-Can take a predator (coyote) at 500
-A barrel long enough to burn up the powder and not be deafening(I can’t stand brakes on carbines) 18-20”
-good for self defense if need be
Not saying these are the distances I take game normally, but I’d rather my rifle be limited by my capabilities than me be limited by my rifle.
MachIVshooter
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Forget op rod ("piston") guns. Solution looking for a problem, create plenty where there weren't any. They are generally less durable, detrimental to accuracy and make suppressed guns much louder.
It can be. My 18" PA-10 would not run at all suppressed without AGB, and my 13" post sample would not run full auto without adjustment.
It can be. My 18" PA-10 would not run at all suppressed without AGB, and my 13" post sample would not run full auto without adjustment.
entropy
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someguy2800
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Given those criteria I think a 6.5 Grendel would be plenty suitable and will be lighter and cheaper by a good bit.
Varminterror
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This.
CoalTrain49
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I was waiting for someone to point that out. That would seem to be the obvious choice to me.
someguy2800
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Given that set of criteria it would be the last thing I thought of.
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Jessesky
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I think M1A’s are super cool, and I want one in my collection. But I do think they are on the heavier side, and even the most inexpensive models begin at $1200.
Varminterror
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Given the criteria, there is absolutely nothing in your posts which points away from an AR-10 towards an M1a.
Your criteria point the direction we have gone in this thread - towards a 6.5 Grendel AR-15. I have no idea how a “light, general purpose ranch/truck gun, deer at 300, predators at 500 (both meaning optics ready), and adjustable gas for ammo adaptability” might point away from a 6.5 Grendel AR-15 towards an M1a.
Your criteria point the direction we have gone in this thread - towards a 6.5 Grendel AR-15. I have no idea how a “light, general purpose ranch/truck gun, deer at 300, predators at 500 (both meaning optics ready), and adjustable gas for ammo adaptability” might point away from a 6.5 Grendel AR-15 towards an M1a.
<*(((><
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M1A’s downsides are heavy, scope mounting is expensive and less refined and can be really expensive trying to get to shoot as well as an AR10. But M1A’s are an awesome rifle and piece of history.
As @Varminterror said DI guns generally will shoot more accurately. This is due to not having some of the reciprocating mass of the piston gas system at a high spot on the gun throwing off follow up shots. A DI gun as you probably know has all of its reciprocating mass in line with the bore.
As @Varminterror said DI guns generally will shoot more accurately. This is due to not having some of the reciprocating mass of the piston gas system at a high spot on the gun throwing off follow up shots. A DI gun as you probably know has all of its reciprocating mass in line with the bore.
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IndianaBoy
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The M1A is an incredibly dated design. Mounting optics is problematic. They are expensive compared to an AR10. They are more difficult to accurize and keep accurate. Optics, once mounted, are problematic with regard to cheek weld. It shares a lot of the same flaws as the FAL. Especially with regard to mounting optics.
Iron sights are a detriment as well. It is impossible to be as effective on an animal like a coyote at 300 yards with iron sights as you can be with good quality magnified optics. Brown animal, brown terrain. They might as well be invisible at 300 yards.
I have an M16A1 clone. It is a neat rifle. Irons only. It is far less practical than a 16" carbine with a decent 1-4x or better optic.
Iron sights are a detriment as well. It is impossible to be as effective on an animal like a coyote at 300 yards with iron sights as you can be with good quality magnified optics. Brown animal, brown terrain. They might as well be invisible at 300 yards.
I have an M16A1 clone. It is a neat rifle. Irons only. It is far less practical than a 16" carbine with a decent 1-4x or better optic.
CoalTrain49
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I think the US military would disagree with you about that. They seem to think the H&K 416 is the rifle to have. That's an op rod piston rifle.
The only reason the military hasn't ditched the M4 already is cost. Just because a system is more expensive doesn't mean it's inferior. The military has already proven the superiority of the HK416 for their purposes. That's why the M4 was adopted and why a piston rifle will eventually replace it.
<*(((><
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We'll see how well the Delta Force (I believe the only department utilizing it currently) like the additional 17% heavier carbine over time with some of the weight forward on the weapon. Empty weight on the H&K 416 (14.5" barrel) is 7.7 lbs., whereas an empty M4 (14.5" barrel) is 6.39 lbs. It does seem to get the praise of certain groups within our military.
But back to the OP, for your criteria it would be hard to argue against an AR10 patterned rifle. The cost / weight / aftermarket support / accuracy of the AR10 is hard to beat in that arena without jumping significantly in cost such as the SCAR 17.
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