I am russian to a decision

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bullturkey

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I have owned many shotguns auto. pump. doubles etc. in my 59 years. I am into the self defense mode more than the sporting mode when it comes to scatterguns. This past week I traded my decked out 870 for a Saiga 12 19 inch barrel auto. Stock 5 rnd mag and several Surefire 8 rnd mags. Being a new gun I sort of expected break in woes. I cleaned it after removing it from the box and sprayed the action down with lithium grease. I shot Wal=Mart 100cnt bargain box ammo, assorted high brass, assorted wolf slugs and buckshot, finally hornady TAP buckshot that I would use for self defense, I had three FTF with the Wally world stuff Break IN? After the first 50 and adjusting the gas setting it worked flawlessly. Plan on putting another 100 plus rnds through it tomorrow. This may well be my go to gun for home defense with my Surefire light on the barrel What I really like over the 870 is the ability to have slugs in one mag, buckshot in another, and varmint loads in another, living in the country this a plus rather than having to empty a tube and replace rounds.
 
way to go bull saigas are pretty neat shotguns i love my saiga 410
i dont think id ever trade off a pump for an auto in an HD role tho
 
I can appreciate your way of thinking. There are pros and cons to both. Chuck Taylor has a good read on this subject and in the end it is up to me to decide. It is a comfort to have a backup with either one you choose.
 
Unmodified ("sporter" stock) Saigas point poorly, handle like crap and have terrible triggers.

An 870 may not have the world's best trigger, but the things point very naturally.

Plastic shotshells are not made to handle long-term lateral force, since the only magazines that are commonly used for shotshells are tube magazines. That means you can't leave the Saiga loaded and forget about it like an 870.

Personally, I'd stick with an 870 for HD.
 
ArmedBear +1


There are a lot of downsides to a Saiga for civilian use, and very few upsides.

Other than as a cool toy.

Which it is very cool.
 
One more addendum...

I wouldn't hang too much crap on the 870, or put on a stock that looks cooler than it shoots. It started life as a bird gun (hence "Wingmaster"), meaning it's quick and easy to acquire a target, even a moving target, with an 870.

The closer the configuration is to the gun's roots, the better it will shoot.:) An extended magazine with an 18.5" barrel is more of a help than a hindrance, but otherwise, I'd leave it alone.
 
Unmodified ("sporter" stock) Saigas point poorly, handle like crap and have terrible triggers.[/QUOTE

The good news is that if you own a drill, a file, a screw driver and have an internet connection there is no reason you have to leave it stock. A converted saiga is not comparable to a stock one and anyone serious about using their S12 converts it.

That means you can't leave the Saiga loaded and forget about it like an 870.
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A magazine in my experience can be left loaded for months without any problem. That is as long as I have left any loaded so I cannot comment beyond that.

If you are talking about leaving the mag loaded on the closed bolt this can be an issue but there are so many simple solutions that it is not really an issue. The simplest is to leave the bolt back. Since an 870 is not drop safe I would not leave one chambered anyways so one is at no disadvantage to have the bolt back. It can be dropped in literally a fraction of second.

If that is not an acceptable solution then one could turn to ammo selection. Not all top rounds will deform. Some will but not all. Thus if one is aware of the issue and wants to leave a round chambered and a mag loaded then one can select one of the rounds known not to deform as their top round or fill the whole mag with the stuff if they like.

The bolt can also be modified in a way that will, as reported by some users alleviate shell deformation.

I think there are things that need to be addressed on the S12 but shell deformation is honestly not one of them and is something that gets brought up by people too misinformed to realize it is not really an issue.

I have multiple 870's and a mossberg so I don't really have a dog in the fight but it does get old to hear the same old second hand (and incorrect) stuff re-posted again and again.

There is no reason a S12 can not be used by an owner up to the task for HD. That said I am not sure that many of the S12s advantages will be factors in most plausible HD scenarios.

I would prefer a 870 to a stock S12. I'd prefer a well tuned S12 to a 870. A well tuned S12 will take a fair amount of time and money over the stock gun. You are probably looking at benelli money to do it right.

A 870 with a few add ons such as a light and a side saddle is a much cheaper path to a perfectly fine HD shotgun and the extra money could be used on training, which will have a much greater effect than what type of gun you have (presuming they are all reliable and will go bang).

That said you have an S12 so here are some things to be aware of. Those 8 round mags are not legal to use in an otherwise stock gun. If you want a good HD gun then there are some modifications that will greatly enhance the S12. I don't have time to chronicle what I believe they are right now but I will try to do it latter.
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I think there are things that need to be addressed on the S12 but shell deformation is honestly not one of them and is something that gets brought up by people too misinformed to realize it is not really an issue.
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You just spent three paragraphs on shell deformation, but you say that it's not an issue?

I didn't say it's utterly insurmountable. I said you can't just leave it loaded and forget about it, and it seems to me that you agree. Considering the logistics of keeping it loaded, in detail, is not "forgetting about it" in my book.:)

I'm not sure how hard I have to drop my 870, but I haven't been able to get it to drop the hammer with the safety on, by dropping it. I wouldn't have any qualms about leaving it under a bed chambered with the safety on, though I might not leave it on top of a hutch or something.

Obviously, a modified Saiga, once you're done screwing with it, won't such much worse than a regular AK. Of course, the AK is a terrible platform for a high-recoil load, but at least it will point better than a stock Saiga, and the trigger will be no worse than any other AK trigger. It's something to consider.
 
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You just spent three paragraphs on shell deformation, but you say that it's not an issue?
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Yes three whole paragraphs, while I do not want to overwhelm the illiterati among us I, unlike certain THR posters try to give facts and reasoning when I post things as opposed to spouting my opinion like it was written on stone tablets atop mt. Sinai. Forgive me. Would you simply prefer me to say that it is not an issue.

I'll summarize by saying it shouldn't be a dispositive factor for anyone and one can leave a loaded mag on a loaded chamber without experiencing shell deformation. I do not believe it is anymore of a significant factor than the very real possibility of shells deforming in a tube magazine. I don't want to over whelm anyone with multiple paragraphs of a few lines each so I wont go into the how or why of shell deformation in tube mags but it can and does occur, most likely amongst people who load them up and "forget about it."

Even if one couldn't leave a S12 chambered and a mag loaded it would not be a legit issue for someone like your self who keeps their shotgun locked up, or any one else who realizes they will have more than 1-2 second to ready their shotgun. If you have time to unlock a shotgun one certainly has time to insert a mag and/or rack the bolt, no?

I don't keep my pump gun with a round in the chamber nor do I keep my S12 in that condition. I do not believe that the fraction of a second it takes to chamber the 12 or the slightly longer time it takes to chamber a round in the pump gun is significant.

Whether on leaves a gun chambered or not is their choice. There was a recent thread where the vast majority of posters here stated they do not and would not leave a shotgun chambered. A search will find that thread and at least 8 others where the overwhelming consensus is to leave the pump gun cruiser ready.

The following is a post by our good Mod Mr. Lapin I think he puts it well.
Just my opinion here, FWIW.

1) If your home defense plan and preparations are in such disrepair that you have so little warning of an intrusion that chambering a round in your shotgun will let an intruder already inside your home know where you are, you need to fix the shortcomings in your perimeter hardening before worrying further about the condition of your shotgun.

2) Shotguns AREN'T drop safe. Keeping the chamber empty under normal circumstances IS a good idea. It is but the work of an instant to chamber a round, and in a solidly constructed home with substantially made AND PROPERLY LOCKED doors and windows, an appropriate alarm system, a dog etc., there should be no way for an intruder to gain entry into the home without the occupants having ample warning and plenty of time to react appropriately to the threat.

3) Chances are that if you have done all you should do to harden your home's perimeter- motion activated lighting, strong doors and windows that are always locked, clear views of your entire property (no places for a criminal to hide), etc, there is much less chance of your home being chosen as a target. The best way to defend against a home invasion is to keep it from happening in the first place.

4) Home invasions are increasing across the country, if media reports are to be believed. But how many of them are happening to plain ordinary citizens? I know in my own area, most home invasions are drug related- druggies seeking to recover stolen drugs, stolen drug money, retaliate against other druggies who stole drugs or drug money, etc. Some are genuine criminal actions against people perceived for whatever reasons to have possessions worth the attempt to steal, or to further a larger criminal operation (kidnapping a family to force a businessman to open a safe at the business, etc). If you aren't a drug dealer, a bank or jewelry store manager, or a rich person who flaunts their wealth, your odds of being the victim of a home invasion are pretty small. None of this is saying you shouldn't take the steps outlined above to prevent random attack, of course, but a realistic perception of the risks involved is important.

FWIW,

lpl
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I hate to try to back anything up with reasoning again as opposed to speculation or mere opinion with zero justification to back it but the diatribe on AK triggers inspired me to walk down and dig out the various shotguns from my safe, two of which are wingmasters and one of which is a tuned up S12 (or "screw[ed] with" if one wants to expose their bias by use of loaded term). I also have a few other AK triggers for comparison (on shotguns and rifles). I got them out and pulled them side by side to compare. What did I glean from this exercise? The tuned S12 has a lighter but slightly longer pull. Smoothness was about equal. I also learned neither is nearly as nice as the one my browning. In sum I cannot imagine the difference in the triggers really making one iota of difference for home defense use.

Now to be fair my S12 trigger is not a "normal" Ak trigger. It is a fancy $30 tapco unit with $15 JTE spring, 25 cents worth of polishing compound, and 50 cents worth of metal to shim it for take up and over travel combined with 20 minutes of very amateur work.

Of course, the AK is a terrible platform for a high-recoil load,
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At the risk you might have to type a couple of paragraphs explaining your assertions, might I ask why that is?

I actually find that the AK platform provides for the softest shooting shotgun that I own. Much much much softer than any pump gun I own or have ever shot. What this translates to is much faster follow up shots and also allows for greatly extended shooting sessions. I believe this is one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) that I am much faster in 3 gun style shooting with my S12 than with a pump gun. Have you tried each to see which you can actually preform faster with? Other reasons include the speed of reloads and the fact that when shooting on the move and/or around cover and from akward shooting positions a gas gun can typically be run much quicker.

The demands of typical HD shotgun use are probably less demanding in certain respects than is 3 gun. Do you shoot 3 gun Armed Bear?

For HD a pump gun is probably a better choice for most people IMO. A modified S12, however, is a very viable HD shotgun. The shooter will be a vastly more significant factor than whether they have an 870 or a S12.
 
LOL

Awesome rant, full of irrelevant quotes about home invasion, apparently to make a point about plastic shotshells in stack magazines.

Other reasons include the speed of reloads and the fact that when shooting on the move and/or around cover and from akward shooting positions a gas gun can typically be run much quicker.
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No ****. Lately I've been eating a lot of what I've shot with gas guns, and I doubt that you shoot 3-gun on steep sidehills while you're slipping on shale. Asking an Idaho chukar hunter if he shoots 3-gun to claim to be some sort of expert in rapid target acquisition with a shotgun... ROTFLMAO

Did I ever say a gas gun wasn't faster for shooting multiple shots in awkward positions? Funny, I can't remember suggesting that.

I will say that I dread the thought of what my house would look like, if I had to do a mag change or two to keep shooting.

But I didn't say you shouldn't be madly in love with your S12. Enjoy.

I don't want to over whelm anyone with multiple paragraphs of a few lines each
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Could have fooled me.:D

BTW Do you load your own shotshells?
 
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ok guys seriously i dont think anyone cares at this point who can pee further

my suggestion was merely my opinion on pump vs. auto for HD i prefer my pump bull prefers his saiga

as far as a saiga being a poor shotgun with crap triggers i dont think the badguy gives a flying crap if you point it (crudly seeing as how crappy of a pointer they are) and pull the trigger (no matter how much play grit or backlash there is)

and tube loaded shells WILL deform no plastic will retain its shape indeffinatly under stress for that matter i wouldnt bet my life on a metal case holding its shape forever under pressure i personaly unload my mags and tubes and start fresh with new shells just in case

we get into these debates all the time here on THR and seriously bottom line for HD is the gun that WORKS period it doesnt matter if its a single shot 22 or a full out M2 all thats really important is that YOU know how to operate it under stress and can ashieve the goal of STOPPING the threat

Bull i agree 100% its your choise and a backup is always a great idea
can you post a link to that chuck article?
 
full of irrelevant quotes about home invasion, apparently to make a point about plastic shotshells in stack magazines
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Actually it was to make a point about the need to leave a shotgun chambered. BTW they are called box magazines.

Asking an Idaho chukar hunter if he shoots 3-gun to claim to be some sort of expert in rapid target acquisition with a shotgun... ROTFLMAO
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No it was a serious question aimed at seeing what you know about tactical shooting. All your posts seem to indicate you think it is the same thing as wing shooting and you are wrong.

I was also curious if you had a had an occasion to shoot various guns in this style of shooting or even be around them. Try it. You might learn a thing or two. It is a different skill set than hunting chukars, something I also enjoy, although pheasants are more my game.

Did I ever say a gas gun wasn't faster for shooting multiple shots in awkward positions?
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Did I say that you didn't? No. Rather I included that as note on one factor as to why the S12 is faster in my hands than my pump guns rather than leaving the implication that it was only faster on account of its lower recoil and faster reloads.

I will say that I dread the thought of what my house would look like, if I had to do a mag change or two to keep shooting.
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I concur that is why I said:

hat said I am not sure that many of the S12s advantages will be factors in most plausible HD scenarios.
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and

The demands of typical HD shotgun use are probably less demanding in certain respects than is 3 gun
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The reload advantage of a S12 is not a huge benefit in most likely HD situations

I do like that you picked at the ancillary parts of my post while ignoring the meatier parts such as the fact that a tuned S12 trigger is no worse than a 870 trigger, contrary to your baseless claim (have you even pulled such a S12 trigger?) Or explaining why the Ak is poor platform for high recoil (which I take it you are categorizing a 12 gauge as). Or the fact that shells can and do deform in tube mags as well it stored and forgotten.

But I didn't say you shouldn't be madly in love with your S12.
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No you just spouted a bunch of poppycock as to why it was an inferior choice to the 870 for HD. The funny thing is I agree with you that most people are better served by a 870 than going the saiga route. The difference, between us is I have enough experience with each type of gun to be able to give sound assessment of the strengths and weakness of each and I know the real reasons why the 870 is the better choice. My opinions are based on years and years of owning and shooting multiple exemplars of each model not regurgitated second hand stories.

BTW Do you load your own shotshells?
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Not very regularly anymore, I have much more money than free time these days and so when I do get time for hand loading it is typically spent on rifle rounds for shooting at distance.
 
Oh a few other issues you can decide not to address are the fact that tube springs can fail and mag tubes can be damaged (I've seen it) and if it happens at the wrong moment you are not a mag change away from fixing it. Of course one could load the shells by hand and pretty fast if you practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSMOoqaGAT4
 
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+1 for the Saiga and Girodin, ArmedBear, you have yet to produce 1 iota of evidence to back up your claims that a Saiga is an inferior choice to an pump gun for HD.

Girodin brought up 3-gun. 3-gun and other defensive shooting games are meant to replicate scenarios and conditions one may encounter in an HD situation. If a particular gun can excell at 3-gun, then it is more than adequate for HD. An example of this is while a good bolt gun is excellent even best choice for hunting game, I'd stick to my AR/AK for HD, and would only use a bolt-gun only if it was a choice between that and a knife. Likewise a shotgun excelling at shooting birds may not be the best choice for shooting two-legged goblins in your hall-way.

How well a gun points is also subjective. What is intuitive for you, for another shooter will be putting holes in the floor and ceiling.

As others have also pointed out, plastic shells will deform if they are stored under pressure, period. It doesn't matter if its vertical or horizontal. The only shotgun that will not deform shells stored in it is a SxS/OU platform where there is no stress on the shell.

Also, +1 for "a broke magazine can be changed in seconds, a dented and non-functional magazine tube will take a gunsmith". Murphy's law always likes to rear its head at the worst time.
 
Also +1 for the Saiga 12. I own an unrestored (I prefer that to "converted", I'm just putting it back to the way it was meant to be) Saiga 12 but I also have a pump 12 gauge as well. I like them both but I do prefer the Saiga. I will like it a lot better once I get the restoration work done though, that is where the pump has a (temporary) advantage: out of the box it's exactly what I feel it should be. The Saiga, not so much. I don't like the "sporter" stock or what the transfer bar does to the feel of the trigger. But it's easily remedied and I like the idea of doing the work myself.
 
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