.410 as replacement for 12ga

[Mr. Mosin]

Here's my take away after reading all of this. Only looking at it from a HD point of view. 5 - 000 aught buck pellets of .36 caliber weighing 68 grains a piece and launched at 1135 fps... Well that comes to 194 ft-lbs each pellet, multiply that by 5 and you get 970 ft-lbs KE (each round x # of rounds loaded). Of course, 8 pellets from a reduced recoil 12 guage places you around 217 ft-lbs each pellet or 1736 ft-lbs KE total (each round x # of rounds loaded). I also know a few folks who are perfectly comfortable with just having a 38 snub lying around the house, 5 shots of 158 wadcutters (~750 fps, 197 ft-lbs KE each round). My question then becomes, just how much whoop butt do you think you need?
I don't know about everyone else but I wouldn't feel unarmed with a reliable pump shotgun loaded with .410 buck... and I fully realize the 12 gauge is a more capable round (Hammer of Thor so to speak) but if you have disabilities then by all means get a .410 or 38 snub, just as long as you have something you can handle adeptly if the need presents itself.

"And that's all I gots to say about that."

That, good sir; is the golden ticket. Being able to run what you have.

 

[mokin]

Three pages worth! Lots of good discussion. I think a .410 would be adequate for the OP's stated purpose but there are probably better choices.

I really like my .410 and have taken lots of bunnies with it. I'm sure it would be adequate for up to deer size critters in a pinch, with the correct ammunition and conditions.

Speaking of bunnies, I love summer but this discussion has me looking forward to winter.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

If shooting small animals, a .410 can replace a 12 gauge and might be a better choice.

In defensive applications, the .410 WILL NEVER replace a 12 gauge. Apples to wheelbarrels comparison.

 

[12Bravo20]

If shooting small animals, a .410 can replace a 12 gauge and might be a better choice.

In defensive applications, the .410 WILL NEVER replace a 12 gauge. Apples to wheelbarrels comparison.

While a 410 will not replace a 12 gauge, it is quite capable of doing the job. I definitely do NOT feel under gunned with my 410 loaded with 3" buckshot.

 

[MEHavey]

FWIW: a 410 bore skeet-load, wherein the normal ½-oz of shot is
replaced by three 0.375"/80-gr roundballs (in-line/in shot cup),
makes a mahvelous 3' group at 30 yards from a full choke.





Still.... a 00-12ga is sooooo much more ...."comforting"

 

[mcb]

This is one of those questions that if you had simply taken a 410 and a 12 gauge to the range and shot stuff with it the answer become pretty obvious. Grab some various shells for both and just shoot stuff: water jugs, wet phonebook/catalogs, wood, watermelons, soup-cans, etc. Take it hunting and try it on legal game. In the end the 410 is a decently capable cartridge but it ain't no 12 gauge. As I mentioned up thread I have successfully hunted everything from dove to deer with a 410, but I having also hunted all those same critters with a 12 gauge; I have also had my fun many a time at the range shooting stuff with both and the differences are stark.

 

[12Bravo20]

FWIW: a 410 bore skeet-load, wherein the normal ½-oz of shot is
replaced by three 0.375"/80-gr roundballs (in-line/in shot cup),
makes a mahvelous 3' group at 30 yards from a full choke.





Still.... a 00-12ga is sooooo much more ...."comforting"

That is why I prefer using the 3" 410 shells for both hunting and buckshot loads. You get a 11/16 ounce load of shot and 5 pellets of buckshot.

I will never tell people that a 410 will replace a 12 gauge. But for those with health issues (like me) or for those that just want a 410, they are perfectly suited for hunting and home defense. I am like many here and a 410 is all we had to hunt with as kids. We learned to make every shot count and became quite proficient with it.

 

[Leon tP]

I also like that .410 comes in 3/4 oz birdshot loads... When they're available.


And this isn't too far behind a 28 gauge 2_3/4" but the 28 has a higher payload velocity.

But still if you stay within the limitations of both you and the load you're using and apply the firearm correctly, you should be successful.

I currently have 3 - 12 guage shotguns, a 20 gauge and a .410 and I enjoy them all. I know what each can do and I stay within those limits for each. For instance, I don't use my 12 guage for 300 yard shots on game. Why? It's not a medium or long range rifle but up close, sure, why not. Likewise, I won't take my .410 to go duck hunting, not while I have a 12 or 20 to do the job better at longer ranges. But push comes to shove and the birds are close enough, it'll work, as long as the shot density (# of pellets on target) is there.

 

[George P]

I also like that .410 comes in 3/4 oz birdshot loads... When they're available.
View attachment 1003071

And this isn't too far behind a 28 gauge 2_3/4" but the 28 has a higher payload velocity.
View attachment 1003072
But still if you stay within the limitations of both you and the load you're using and apply the firearm correctly, you should be successful.

I currently have 3 - 12 guage shotguns, a 20 gauge and a .410 and I enjoy them all. I know what each can do and I stay within those limits for each. For instance, I don't use my 12 guage for 300 yard shots on game. Why? It's not a medium or long range rifle but up close, sure, why not. Likewise, I won't take my .410 to go duck hunting, not while I have a 12 or 20 to do the job better at longer ranges. But push comes to shove and the birds are close enough, it'll work, as long as the shot density (# of pellets on target) is there.

You need a 28 to go with that box of ammo.......................something magical about that bore size.

 

[JDTomba]

If the goal is lower recoil, use lower weight loads in your 12ga. Lower shot weight and same weight gun delivers less recoil.

The max loads for the .410 are 11/16ths oz in 3" shells. A .410 should weigh considerably less than a 12 ga, so max loads in a an appropriately framed and weight 410 will deliver relatively high recoil.

Hitting, let alone killing with 1/2oz to 5/8oz of shot vs 1oz - 1 1/4oz is a lot harder. And patterns generally have to be tighter with the 410 to deliver results on target, which is why fixed choke .410s tend to be a tight Mod - Full. This makes hits and kills that little bit harder as well. For squirrels and backyard pests, the 410 is fine. But for birds, bunnies, and anything else on the move, you have got to be a darned fine shot and probably within 15 yards to get consistent hits. For self defense, I would not use a 410 if I had other choices.

A 1 oz or 7/8oz 12 ga load is a better choice for lower recoil. You may also need to look at the fit of your existing gun.

Well I like to shoot pistols but I don't hunt. I shoot low-house skeet but by myself and not in teams or competition I just enjoy it with a .410 that I reload for. I was always taught that anything I need to shoot with a shotgun for self defense will be within 15 yards or the longest hallway in my home. My Henry would work just fine for that but if I need defense I use either of my 2 handguns. If I need to hunt we have a Henry 45/70.

 

[John Joseph]

Out of curiosity, how does the .410 fare as a replacement for the 12ga in regards to small game (rabbit, squirrel), medium sized game, and self defense (in a tight pinch) ? Question originally started brewing as me wanting a lighter recoiling shotgun then my 870 12ga for small game hunting, but I thought to ask regarding the whole gamut.

I know all manner of loads are made for the .410, from buckshot and slugs, to #12 shot; and that it's generally a far shorter range than a 12ga/20ga. Thought to ask the experts. This would be mainly a small game scattergun and woods walking gun.

What you loose with a.410 is the amount of shot in your pattern. Within range and with accurate shooting it will joyfully bring down small game but you have to do your part.
For SD in a tight pinch, sure, but I'd load buck shot.

There are low recoil 12 gauge loads that are quite mellow---much softer than even a 20 gauge---and the ammo, if it is ever available again, would probably run the about same as garden variety.410s and you wouldn't incur the expense of buying another scattergun

 

[Kleanbore]

Out of curiosity, how does the .410 fare as a replacement for the 12ga in regards to small game (rabbit, squirrel), medium sized game, and self defense (in a tight pinch) ?

All self defense involves a "tight pinch".

My preference is a semi-auto 20, with slugs for the defensive role.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

All self defense involves a "tight pinch".

My preference is a semi-auto 20, with slugs for the defensive role.

SLUGS ?!?!?!?! You... You.... you must be begging for over-penetration. Better off with most any buckshot

 

[Kleanbore]

SLUGS ?!?!?!?! You... You.... you must be begging for over-penetration. Better off with most any buckshot

Recommended these days. Far less risk of collateral injury.

 

[AK Hunter]

The .410 doesn't put as much shot in the pattern as the 12ga but you can get the job done on squirrels if you use the 3" magnum shells.
Ask me how I know. LOL

 

[Kleanbore]

I was always taught that anything I need to shoot with a shotgun for self defense will be within 15 yards or the longest hallway in my home.

The latter is virtually certain, in your home.

Outdoors, the former is very probable, but by no means certain.

Last year, a large, excited crowd made a wrong turn and came onto the lawn of a home not far from us and reportedly threatened to burn the house down, a threat which the "protesters" now deny having made. They did threaten news crews with Kalashnikovs nearby days later, however. The mayor had tp\o leave her home.

Should persons with firebombs threaten a residence with arson, the occupants would be lawfully justified in threatening or using deadly force, if necessary, to stop them--immediately before they threw firebombs, and not a moment afterward.

Thye should, of course, stay safely indoors, without exosing themselves to "incoming" missiles from the crowd. That's a no-brainer.

The likelihood of that happening to me would, I think, be miniscule. I do not live near a mayor or other person whom organized criminal operatives who have brought in paid ex-cons want to drive from office.

I did think about it briefly, however.

I would want something with a greater reach than a pistol.

I settled on a 20-ga. shotgun, with less recoil than a 12, and much less ear-damaging sound pressure.

I would use slugs, of course, which can be aimed. I would never even think about launching an expanding pattern of shot in the direction of houses across the street, or toward a crowd.

The one I had in mind is still out of stock. I have not acquired one.

 

[George P]

I settled on a 20-ga. shotgun, with less recoil than a 12, and much less ear-damaging sound pressure.

Recoil may or may not be less; a lot depends on the weight of the 20 versus the 12. Pressures are typically higher the smaller the bore size

 

[12Bravo20]

Recoil may or may not be less; a lot depends on the weight of the 20 versus the 12. Pressures are typically higher the smaller the bore size

So true. I had an old 20 gauge bolt action goose gun that kicked way worse than any 12 gauge I have ever shot.

 

[Kleanbore]

Recoil may or may not be less;

Yes. I am thinking about a Stoeger M3020 Defense. Can't find one.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Recommended these days. Far less risk of collateral injury.

Your..... your.... gah, nevermind.

 

[Kleanbore]

Your..... your.... gah, nevermind.

You could stand some education on the subject.

Buckshot, properly aimed, can be effective for defense at close range, but they spread out fast. Slugs and bullets do not. Buckshot from a .410 long arm penetrate pine boards, and harm people.

 

[George P]

Yes. I am thinking about a Stoeger M3020 Defense. Can't find one.

That gun weighs about 5.5# - recoil from powerful buck or slugs is going to smack you good!
At 5.6# recoil is 23.5 foot pounds

 

[Mr. Mosin]

You could stand some education on the subject.

Buckshot, properly aimed, can be effective for defense at close range, but they spread out fast. Slugs and bullets do not. Buckshot from a .410 long arm penetrate pine boards, and harm people.

I *am* educated. You want defense past 50yds, you want a carbine or rifle. A shotgun can be shoehorned into most any role, but they succeed truly only in close quarters and for birds on the wing

 

[entropy]

You need to get out with some slugs and practice. Though past 50 yds., I would prefer a carbine.

Pssst.< Don't tell the deer my Dad shot with an 1100 at 225 yards they are only good to 50 yards. >

Kleanbore's comment was to point out that slugs do not spread out and possibly harm others than your target. My longest shot is 8 yards, so I use 0 buck and Win. PDX-1 with a 1 oz. slug and 3 00 buck on top it.

 

[Kleanbore]

You want defense past 50yds, you want a carbine or rifle.

I was thinking well within fifty yards.

Most people are more proficient with a rifle than with a 12 ga. However, I do not want to discharge one in the neighborhood.

A shotgun can be shoehorned into most any role, but they succeed truly only in close quarters and for birds on the wing

A shotgun with slugs has greater reach than a pistol