.410 as replacement for 12ga

[MEHavey]

< Don't tell the deer my Dad shot with an 1100 at 225 yards they are only good to 50 yards. >

A 12ga Foster slug at 1,350 has ~6ft drop at 225yds.
Can you provide a little context as to the circumstances?

 

[entropy]

Well, it wasn't a Foster slug.

 

[George P]

I was thinking well within fifty yards.

Most people are more proficient with a rifle than with a 12 ga. However, I do not want to discharge one in the neighborhood.

A shotgun with slugs has greater reach than a pistol

I'll disagree about reach - while a slug might have greater kinetic energy downrange, REACH, as in how far it will shoot, is not true. A little .22lr has a range of a mile; you'd be hard pressed to get a slug to go that far. That said, it does pack more punch than a typical small handgun round at distance. I say "typical" because my Remington XP-100 in 7mm BR not only will outshoot a slug, it will kill at ranges at 300 yards or so on antelope-sized game

 

[JDTomba]

I *am* educated. You want defense past 50yds, you want a carbine or rifle. A shotgun can be shoehorned into most any role, but they succeed truly only in close quarters and for birds on the wing

I mis spoke I guess. I use the .410 for low house skeet. I was taught that shotguns were good for defense at 15 yards or the longest hallway in the house with bird shot. I wanted the load data for the brass shells with 32cal ball for the skeet. I live far enough away from others that I use my Glock 24 40S&W for home defense.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'll disagree about reach - while a slug might have greater kinetic energy downrange, REACH, as in how far it will shoot, is not true. A little .22lr has a range of a mile; you'd be hard pressed to get a slug to go that far. That said, it does pack more punch than a typical small handgun round at distance. I say "typical" because my Remington XP-100 in 7mm BR not only will outshoot a slug, it will kill at ranges at 300 yards or so on antelope-sized game

I meant "reach" in terms of range of practical precision for SD.

 

[George P]

Well, then I will stand corrected as I did not read the post in that manner.............(this forum needs a handshake emojicon)

 

[Mr. Mosin]

You need to get out with some slugs and practice. Though past 50 yds., I would prefer a carbine.

Pssst.< Don't tell the deer my Dad shot with an 1100 at 225 yards they are only good to 50 yards. >

Kleanbore's comment was to point out that slugs do not spread out and possibly harm others than your target. My longest shot is 8 yards, so I use 0 buck and Win. PDX-1 with a 1 oz. slug and 3 00 buck on top it.

That's just it... I can't "practice" with 12ga slugs due to my medical concerns... I realize even a smoothbore foster slug is good for at least 100yds, with minimum practice and a bead sight

 

[entropy]

I'd be considering an AR pistol then also, were I you. Much better terminal ballistics than a .410 with any payload, no recoil, and they are ALL loud indoors, so that's a wash. Actually, I have an AR pistol at the ready also, as well as my Ithaca 37. (The AR is SWMBO's HD gun of choice. I am fine with the 37 and my 1911.)

 

[Mr. Mosin]

I'd be considering an AR pistol then also, were I you. Much better terminal ballistics than a .410 with any payload, no recoil, and they are ALL loud indoors, so that's a wash. Actually, I have an AR pistol at the ready also, as well as my Ithaca 37. (The AR is SWMBO's HD gun of choice. I am fine with the 37 and my 1911.)

I want a scattergun though.... :-(

 

[12Bravo20]

I want a scattergun though.... :-(

Buy and use what you want, don't worry about what others think of your choices. I have proven that with the correct load, a 410 is a very viable option for HD/SD. Plus using one for hunting and/or clay shooting games will make you a better shot.

 

[JDTomba]

That's just it... I can't "practice" with 12ga slugs due to my medical concerns... I realize even a smoothbore foster slug is good for at least 100yds, with minimum practice and a bead sight

Thank you for your answer. I have been looking for a nice little carbine. Kel Tec makes a SB2000 in 9mm or 40 S&W that I want to find. I reload 40 and 10 mm so that would be perfect. The 9mm are all over the place but the 40 is like hen's teeth. Maybe will do a build if I can find a decent 80% lower in 40 S&W.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Thank you for your answer. I have been looking for a nice little carbine. Kel Tec makes a SB2000 in 9mm or 40 S&W that I want to find. I reload 40 and 10 mm so that would be perfect. The 9mm are all over the place but the 40 is like hen's teeth. Maybe will do a build if I can find a decent 80% lower in 40 S&W.

I would personally recommend a Ruger PC Carbine- head and shoulders above the KelTec.

 

[Choctaw]

The 410's only practical use is for squirrel hunting, or other small game when shots are taken at stationary targets. It CAN be somewhat effective for wing shooting at close range if the shooter has above average skills. But for most people the pattern and small number of pellets make it a poor choice.

While it, or any firearm can be effective for defensive purposes in ideal conditions I just think there are much better choices. I'd use it if it were all that I had, but a 20 is as small as I'd want to go for most shot gunning purposes.

I agree but the most fun a hunter can have is sitting on a tank dam on a fall afternoon and shoot dove with a .410 as a cold front rolls in. Well, in my case I should have said "shoot AT dove." The .410 will definitely demand the shooter do his/her part or they will go home hungry.

 

[desidog]

I have half a dozen 12's, and for the last two years, with the exception of duck hunting, I've used my Norwich Arms Quail Hammerless .410 SxS for all field hunting. I hunt partridge and pheasant. For wing-shooting, the .410's limitation compared to a 12 is the shot string... essentially the 3D swarm of flying shot gets threadbare much sooner than a 12's. I use #4 shot with the .410, whereas hunting with a 12 gauge I'd use #6 shot.

/If I still reloaded I'd still use 12's, because .410 is a PIA to reload.

 

[12Bravo20]

410 shells aren't bad to reload with #6 shot or smaller. Yes reloading 410 shells with #4 shot is a pain since it wants to bridge in the drop tube.

 

[Leon tP]

Buy and use what you want, don't worry about what others think of your choices. I have proven that with the correct load, a 410 is a very viable option for HD/SD. Plus using one for hunting and/or clay shooting games will make you a better shot.

^This^

As long as it's Reliable (goes bang everytime and doesn't jam) and more importantly, you can actually use it effectively (you know the limits and scenarios that you are most likely expect) then use it. I only draw the line at a single shot since that even goes below the expectation of a 2 to 3 shot scenario (and that's a pretty low bar to begin with). Other than that, I don't have a problem with the whole HD/SD 410 concept. Use slugs or buckshot, you decide (you know your surroundings better than I do). I would use slugs but that's just me because I live in a very rural area, not some crowded suburb.
Something like this would do the trick.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/loading-mossberg-410-shotguns-for-home-defense/

I wouldn't pretend to know what's best for you because I don't even know all of your circumstances but I suspect (barring fantastic and unlikely extreme circumstances) for most typical and hopefully, still unlikely events, the 410 can do the job.

This thought excerise reminds me of math class, particularly, optimization problems when finding the bestest, most streamlined, most efficient answer was the goal, and when that answer was found, it presumed all other options were garbage (even if the other options still work!).
I keep a 12 guage loaded with slugs because I can use it effectively. I recommend that option to others but I won't beat them over the head with it because it may not be the best most viable option for them -- for a whole number of reasons, that's just life.

 

[George P]

Personally, I find the 410 a tad too expert for my uses, whereas a 28 gauge hits all the high marks perfectly. A 28 on a 20 heavier frame for targets and a 28 on a light 28 frame for birds - nirvana at its best

 

[Kleanbore]

I have proven that with the correct load, a 410 is a very viable option for HD/SD.

Well, it can suffice, and it may suffice from time to time, but that does not necessarily establish that it is "very viable" for defense.

 

[12Bravo20]

Well, it can suffice, and it may suffice from time to time, but that does not necessarily establish that it is "very viable" for defense.

It has in my testing for both patterning and penetration tests. And I tested with both my 410 Shockwave and 410 Model 500. I posted my results in a couple of threads here.

 

[Kleanbore]

It has in my testing for both patterning and penetration tests

Yes. It may suffice.

 

[12Bravo20]

Yes. It may suffice.

It will suffice and do the job, no questions asked. With that said, Yes a 12 or 20 will always be better since they both have more pellets. But the FPS is the same no matter what gauge or bore.

 

[Kleanbore]

It will suffice and do the job, no questions asked.

One big question--what does every pellet hit every time, on every shot, at every distance, with the target in every position.

ith that said, Yes a 12 or 20 will always be better since they both have more pellets.

Better except for the higher likeihood of errant strikes.

 

[12Bravo20]

Here are some results with my 410s shooting 3" 000 buckshot

One shot at 7 yards


5 shots at 7 yards



5 shots at 15 yards




3 shots at 25 yards



And all of the pellets penetrated the heavy duty industrial conveyor belts that the Mo. Dept. of Conservation uses for target backs.

 

[Kleanbore]

Nice.

But vary the range, add in motion, and then consider precisely what each pellet actually hits, which is the all important thing....

BTW, one will see a lot more by shooting once at each target, very quickly.

That would not be my choice.

 

[12Bravo20]

The 7 yard target with only one shot was bringing my Shockwave up from my hip to eye level using the push/pull method and firing as fast as I could get on target. The other targets with multiple shots were again bringing the Shockwave up and firing as fast as I could. Now I do have a reflex red dot sight with a circle dot reticle mounted which helps get on target quickly.

And Ive done the same thing with my 410 Model 500 with 18.5" barrel with the same results.