I am second guessing my decision to get my first handgun..

[wannabeagunsmith]

Yeah, don't let the signs a few paranoid individuals put up keep you from defending yourself. And for in the apartment, you could always buy a drawer safe, I have one. I can open it in less than 2 seconds. Good luck on your purchase!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I am not a lawyer, but as I read this, it is an affirmative defense if you are not informed of the presence of the sign. I read this to mean that if they dont tell you about the notice you will not be charged.

This basically follows the pattern of you enter, they ask you to leave while telling you about the sign. If you dont leave at that point you are violating the law.

Also the sign has to be the sign from the state, they cant just make up any sign they want.

Not true. They can make their own if it's in compliance with 4-229...they don't have to use the sign from the state.

The statute you cite states the requirements for a licensed establishment (which serves alcohol). So this specific legal requirement for the details of the sign only apply to establishments which sell/serve alcohol.

In addition, the rest of the statute you cited says:

D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

1. Seeking emergency aid.

2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.


While doing some research on this subject, I came across the following on handgunlaw.us for Arizona:

"Arizona does have wording in their law concerning the posting of Places that Serve Alcohol and specifications for that posting. See 4-229. However a place that serves alcohol can post any type of no gun sign they wish and they have met the letter of the law and 4-229 penalties can be applied."

I don't see this explicitly stated in the statute. However, the state statute does list specifics on what is a defense to a violation and non-compliance with the specific sign construction is not listed. Therefore it may be implicit that this is not a defense, which would mean that any "No Guns" sign which is conspicuously posted may, indeed, meet the letter of the law. It may certainly be a challenge point in an actual court case, or perhaps to avoid a court case entirely.

I did find one article which supported the statement made in the handgunlaw.us page here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/some-confusion-regarding-arizona-carry-laws


I did find one other matter on criminal trespass:

13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.

B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.


What does that mean? Well, if a person has a regular "No Guns Sign" conspicuously posted at the entrance of a bar and you violate it, then you can be automatically charged with a class 3 misdemeanor for criminal trespass. Perhaps the difference between the sign requirements of 4-229 and this is 4-229 also includes a criminal firearms violation as well. However, BOTH circumstances involve criminal violations and may very well affect one's ability to continue carry a CCW permit. I'll leave that up for others to discuss...but I, for one, am not eager to be charged with anything criminal, period.


Here's a previous posting on this matter by Frank Ettin (who is a lawyer):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8811074&postcount=41


All that said, I ain't no lawyer and I'll happily defer to the experienced opinion of those who are on this matter.


Regardless, I am of the opinion that, like it or not, private businesses have the right to set such rules and should be respected. I can choose to comply or take my business elsewhere in response.

 

[RussB]

My question is why should a non US citizen be allowed to purchase/own firearms? Shouldn't that be a right preserved for citizens?

 

[smalls]

My question is why should a non US citizen be allowed to purchase/own firearms? Shouldn't that be a right preserved for citizens?

You should only be able to defend yourself if you're a citizen? Sit back and realize how stupid that sounds. The constitution applies to all who reside here, with few exceptions.

 

[Warp]

My question is why should a non US citizen be allowed to purchase/own firearms? Shouldn't that be a right preserved for citizens?

Why they heck should they not be allowed to?

No, I don't believe that basic, natural, unalienable Rights should be denied from people just because they are not US Citizens.

 

[Old Fuff]

My question is why should a non US citizen be allowed to purchase/own firearms? Shouldn't that be a right preserved for citizens?

There is no restrictions or qualifications in the Constitution that apply citizenship limits to civil rights.

On the other hand, the Unorganized Militia of the United States specifies that the membership will include (with a few exceptions) All male citizens, or those who have declared an intention to become citizens, between the age of 16 through 44.

The only issue here is, is the gentleman who started the thread legally in the United States? Since he has a Green Card he is.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The US Constitution affirms our God given right to self defense as free men. Nowhere does that affirmation stipulate you need to be a citizen of the country to have God given rights.

 

[Lucky Derby]

My question is why should a non US citizen be allowed to purchase/own firearms? Shouldn't that be a right preserved for citizens?

Short answer, NO
Long answer, The Consititution applies to all. It affirms God given rights. It does not give rights. If it did not apply to all, it would mean that aliens, legal or not, would not be able to:
Give their opinion, go to church, be free from unreasonable search & siezure, have a jury trial, confront an accuser, get an attorney, be free from cruel & unusual punishment.....The list goes on

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The US Constitution affirms our God given right to self defense as free men. Nowhere does that affirmation stipulate you need to be a citizen of the country to have God given rights.

Just as interesting, nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say anything at all about "God given rights".

The Declaration of Independence, however, has this to say:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

It is not an arguable point that the vast majority of the Founding Fathers were, indeed, religious. But there was also a point of view going around that, regardless of any religion, per se, there were certain observable natural laws which may or may not be attributable to a deity.


But ultimately you are correct...it is a given that there were several "rights" which were recognized/proclaimed to be fundamental to ALL people and that these purpose of governments is not to GRANT those rights, but to SECURE them.

Very powerful words, those are, in both the Declaration and the Constitution.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I never said the Constitution had the words God given rights, I said the document affirmed out rights came from God, not the government. The Founders knew if our rights came from the government they could be revoked. No government can revoke what was given to us by God!

 

[Stumper]

Erminio has to make his own decision. He has a lot riding on it.....However, I note that....unless a life or death situation arises while I am in n establishment no one will see my CONCEALED handgun. If it is life or death I won't worry about a technical misdemeanor. "I didn't see the sign" is a solid defense. Most of such signage here in Colorado does not meet the statutory standard, so it isn't even legally posted!