I designed a gun that never runs out of bullets...

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RobV

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I recently filed a Provisional Patent Application for a new kind of assault rifle that I'm pitching to ARDEC, and I am currently seeking funding to develop the idea into licensable IP and a fully functioning prototype.

While the project is still confidential, the question to you, however, is what is the best way to go from a raw concept in a 22 page 'Unsolicited Proposal', which includes a copy of the Provisional Patent Application.... to actually making money off the idea?

In short, I have absolutely no experience with anything like this - either from a manufacturing standpoint, or a licensing standpoint... and despite the company name, I don't have any experience in the firearm industry, or the Military, either... other than I grew up hunting and shooting like most of you folks in here.

That said, I have shown the document to a PA State Trooper, a special ops Marine (now contractor) and his associates, and a Navy serviceman - and all were extremely positive, with one LEO even asking me if I had a prototype they could demo (which I don't). So as far fetched as it sounds, I think I designed a new weapon, and the few people I showed it to that might use it in the field actually liked it.

So since I'm not able to disclose anything {snip}, I'm hoping you all can just humor me, and for the sake of this discussion, just focus on how a normal Joe might go about taking his idea on paper and turn it into dollar bills. If we can stay focused on this aspect, and not my invention, others with the same questions can use this thread as a reference. So to start, let me tell you at least what I'm thinking, and thank you for your comments in advance, then maybe you can help me figure out my options...

Right now, the idea is only in the form of a Provisional Patent Application (PPA). I have no real money to put towards developing the idea much further. I have been told to seek feedback from a manufacturer, after getting them to sign my NDA, but before I file a Non-provisional Utility Patent Application or even begin to create a prototype. The reasoning behind this is that manufacturers usually want you to tweak something, which means you will have to file another patent to protect the refined idea, which will cost more money and time.

This makes sense to me. However, taking my little PPA and NDA to a 'Beretta' or a 'S&W', with a team of lawyers, scares the heck out of me. These companies have huge resources they could leverage to get around anything I could come up with myself, although the two IP Lawyers I showed it to thought I did a good job in writing up the application.

The other thought was NOT taking it to a manufacturer and instead just submitting the proposal (without a great financial section) to the ARMY and see if they are just interested in the idea. Despite the new functionality I developed, the manufacturing technology is totally conventional - nothing new or special required. In other words, get a basic range quote and just say, 'if you like it, then I can get you firmer quotes'. (ARDEC promises an acknowledgement of receipt within 10 days, and a non-committing letter saying whether they are interested in speaking with me further within 90 days.)

As to what ARDEC might say if they are interested in talking with me further is unknown. From what I understand, they can offer certain kinds of assistance, including facilities, etc. But the reality is, I'm way out of my league here and I think if they are interested then my next goal is to go after a mega manufacturing partner and try to license the technology for them to develop and just send me a quarterly check. As far as exclusive, vs non-exclusive, or whether I try to come up with 2-3 different versions and then grant exclusive rights to develop a given model, I dont really know.

I also am wondering if I should develop a prototype before approaching a manufacturer. Normally I would think this might be a good idea, but right now I see this as being a big waste of money, since I doubt a Beretta would actually use any of my blueprints - they would just start from scratch with the concept.

The last thought was to bring it to a smaller defense manufacturer and try to get them to take the project from concept to production, but one look at the heizer firearms site shows you how messed up things can get before you ever even produce a single gun.

Anyway, this is where I'm at today. Any thoughts and feedback are welcome and appreciated.
 
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Right now, the idea is only in the form of a Provisional Patent Application (PPA). I have no real money to put towards developing the idea much further. I have been told to seek feedback from a manufacturer, after getting them to sign my NDA, but before I file a Non-provisional Utility Patent Application or even begin to create a prototype. The reasoning behind this is that manufacturers usually want you to tweak something, which means you will have to file another patent to protect the refined idea, which will cost more money and time.

This makes sense to me. However, taking my little PPA and NDA to a 'Beretta' or a 'S&W', with a team of lawyers, scares the heck out of me.
Click to expand...

It should with good reason. Remember what the automakers did to Robert Kearns when he invented intermittent wipers?
 
Patent attorneys aren't cheap
Click to expand...

Get one of these.

Get a loan.

Build a prototype.

Wait for the patent on what ever new concept you are pitching. Approach FNH as a partner or sell them the patent. They specialize in military and LEO weaponry and would probably be the best equiped to undertake an endeavor like this.

If you have no money, machining skills, or capabilities to build a prototype or further develope this on your own, you may be better off selling the idea and right to build the patented system, item, concept, whatever you are calling this, than actually trying to become a manufacturer yourself. Hell, if it's a good enough idea FNH or some other major builder may want to hire you as a conceptual engineer of some kind.
 
>Remember what the automakers did to Robert Kearns when he invented intermittent wipers?
EXACTLY - How does one avoid something like that?

>dogtown tom
Just because I don't have money doesn't mean Venture Capital isn't possible to acquire, especially for something like this. In fact, that's part of the whole reason you submit an Unsolicited Proposal to ARDEC - to have them help you develop the idea, not just buy the finished project from you. (ARDEC stands for Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center - they are involved with ideas and IP as much as they are with physical weapons.)

>Wait for the patent
A Utility Patent (which will take ~3 years to get) offers nothing more than than a Provisional Patent Application (which I already have) does now. (It basically gives me the right to sue to protect the idea, nothing more.)

If you mean having an IP attorney write it for me, I already worked with 2 to write what I have, and both felt what I ended up with was adequate. And again, "the reasoning behind a PPA is that manufacturers usually want you to tweak something, which means you will have to file another patent to protect the refined idea, which will cost more money and time."

In other words, most people spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to protect an idea no one even wants. PPAs were developed to address this so inventors could solicit feedback before moving forward.

The only question I have is that once you start dealing in Mega companies, I'm not sure I trust them (whether my patent has been granted, or I have a prototype) but if you ever want to partner with anyone, at some point you have to disclose the idea to them. One could argue that all you need is a PPA and enough money to file a suit to its conclusion.

>Approach FNH
I'll look them up. Thanks.

>you may be better off selling the idea
Right, I agree. I have no business trying to take this all the way to the endzone myself. My issue is trying to partner with 800lb gorillas that want my banana.
 
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SO this in effect is what I do. I work for a University doing patents and licensing for inventions created during the course of research. Your situation is not unique, I talk with hundreds of inventors in the same position each year. Your Provisional Application is a good first step, but as you know the clock is ticking and you have (less) then one year to convert the application or the idea goes into the public domain. Some things for thought:

1) Do a very complete patent search, make sure you are not duplicating your idea.
2) SBIR.gov this website will help you find funding for these types of projects. You need to form a company to get an SBIR grants, but that is pocket change compared to the upwards of $750,000 you can get for the development of your idea.
3) Do not think about using the Patent Now late night TV patent scams. They are a scam and will cost you more then a real attorney. You will not get a good patent out of that deal.
4) It is not unheard of to file a Utility application without an attorney. I have students do it all the time. Deff a money saver. USPTO.gov has lots of training vids and such.
5) No company will talk to you with or with out a CDA prior to having a patent issue. Mostly this is to protect their own intellectual property that they are working on. Saves them from lawsuits later on. Get your prototype and issued patent and go to the SHOT SHow or other LAw enforcement conferences and start pitching.
6) Check out the local business incubator. Florida is filled with great resources for starting a company. Also consider the Universities in Florida as a resource. They can help partner on research contracts (Military loves that) or help with your idea.

And lastly, in no disrespect to my THR brothers- do not post this stuff on the internet. This is a public forum and will come back to haunt you should a company want to kill your patent. It has happened before and will happen again. Public disclosure kills your patents and inventions.

You can take all this with a grain of salt- I have worked on hundreds of patents (almost 1000!) and countless CDA's and license deals. I know where the mistakes are cause I done did them already :)

Good luck
 
You need to get a working prototype up and running and then give a live fire demo on YouTube. If the thing really works you will have no trouble getting investors.

Someone invented a 20 round drum magazine for Saiga shotguns a while back and posted videos of it in action. He protected his idea from being copied simply by covering the device with a black plastic bag during the demo. That way potential interested parties could see that it worked but not exactly how. Send a video like that to the major manufacturers and you will find someone willing to finance your patent and development in exchange for marketing rights.
 
The other thought was NOT taking it to a manufacturer and instead just submitting the proposal (without a great financial section) to the ARMY and see if they are just interested in the idea.
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Terrible idea. Our government has a long history of userping intelectual property, and recourse is far less likely than with a corporate entity.

If you don't have the means to prototype, you need to seek out a manufacturer who does (you already know this)

The thing you need to figure out, though, is whether or not that can get around your design. Even if it is patented, only a small (15%, IIRC) change in design is required to avoid a violation. This means you need to patent a specific part or parts of your design that cannot function if altered to that degree. Maybe that's possible, maybe it isn't. If you think a manufacturer could get around your patent, then you have to approach things differently.

Theft of intellectual property happens all the time, usually for the reasons you fear; The person/firm doing the taking is more experienced and better funded. Without the ability to manufacture yourself, this may be the reality you face. You're on the right track with a PPA and NDA, but be careful.

All that said, without seeing your idea, I can't really make a good suggestion on who to approach with it, but I will say that Kel-Tec lives on the cutting edge of new firearms development and may be one of the more likely companies to take on a radical new design.
 
>Do a very complete patent search
I did a fairly exhaustive search then paid LegalZoom to do one for me as well... we didn't find anything, although there were a couple that were kinda similar, but really not what we were doing.

>SBIR.gov
I'm on it in 5 minutes...

>Patent Now late night TV patent scams.
gottcha

>You need to form a company
Already formed an S corp in Florida with an EIN

>It is not unheard of to file a Utility application without an attorney.
Agreed. Again, LegalZoom and others offer some (paid) support, in addition to the free documentation available that you mentioned. The writing doesn't really bother me, but I'm more interested in strategy and tips an experienced lawyer could offer. Given the time and feedback, I'm confident I can do the writing part.

>No company will talk to you with or with out a CDA prior to having a patent issue.
That right there is what I was looking to hear. So, given we are talking about a new kind of weapon, and huge manufacturers, you don't think I should even approach them to gauge their interest. Ok.

>Get your prototype and issued patent and go to the SHOT SHow or other LAw enforcement conferences and start pitching.
I got you.

>Florida is filled with great resources for starting a company.
So basically we have VC incubators, Universities, and ARDEC... which one do you think is the most advantageous to me, if I want the most bang for the buck? VCs want ROI and ARDEC wants weapons, but I'm not sure what the angle of the Universities are(?)

>do not post this stuff on the internet. This is a public forum and will come back to haunt you [...] Public disclosure kills your patents and inventions.
ok, I went back and snipped everything besides the title which I couldn't edit. (sorry guys, I'd love to just tell you.) But as far as I know I didn't disclose what I'm doing, I'm just disclosing what it does... not how I'm doing it. So I can't disclose anything until I have the awarded patent in my hand? ok.


>Someone invented a 20 round drum magazine for Saiga shotguns a while back and posted videos of it in action. He protected his idea from being copied simply by covering the device with a black plastic bag during the demo.
heehhehe that's not a bad idea once I get that far.
 
ARDEC is by far the worst approach of those listed. If you submit anything to a government entitiy like ARDEC, unsolicited or not, and what you submit does not clearly and uncontestably contain the proper handling markings and instructions (to the letter, as specified per the FAR, etc..), then you may well have just given away your concept to the government with little or no recourse.

And any such idea submitted to them - if it is of any interest or merit - would find its way into the hands of a defense contractor or manufacturer already working with ARDEC.
 
>Our government has a long history of usurping intelectual property
I was afraid of that too, although the AMC guide to Unsolicited Proposals addresses this to some extent, and outlines how you are supposed to submit confidential information - cover sheet and footer, described on page 7.

...Again, at some point you have to trust someone if you want to move forward(?)

>If you don't have the means to prototype, you need to seek out a manufacturer who does
...Or solicit private VC to fund a prototype. This also kinda assumes I don't take it to a firearms manufacturer, but rather just a fabricator, where it's more unlikely they have what it takes to do much more than I can (they dont have an outlet for the product.) In other words, a massive gun maker has everything they need to go to market, whereas the local fabricator doesn't have a retail outlet or govt. connections.

Maybe this is the way to go after all.

>The thing you need to figure out, though, is whether or not that can get around your design.
Bingo. Maybe I should hire a few different firms to try and pick it apart and then file more PPA to patch the holes until I can combine everything into a single patent, or multiple patents(?) This sounds better than just refining what I have.

>Kel-Tec lives on the cutting edge of new firearms
True. They seem to be innovative. I'll research them further.
 
>ARDEC is by far the worst approach of those listed.

ouch. This is where I was headed, although, I already implemented all the confidentiality notes they mentioned.
 
>So it's kinda like a perpetual motion machine?
>I'm surprised this is the only skeptical post

I hear you:) But humor me, I can't defend myself without potentially having it used against me.
 
1) Do a very complete patent search, make sure you are not duplicating your idea.
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This really needs to be done. There are over 200 years of firearm patents, and they include pretty much every conceivable mechanism. Often on the books far earlier than anyone would expect.
 
>This really needs to be done.

Right, It's been done. Twice. Before I wrote the PPA, actually.
I did a fairly exhaustive search then paid LegalZoom to do one for me as well... we didn't find anything, although there were a couple that were kinda similar, but really not what we were doing.
Click to expand...

And by 'similar' I mean vaguely similar - so vague in fact, the IP lawyer told me not to worry.
 
RobV said:
ouch. This is where I was headed, although, I already implemented all the confidentiality notes they mentioned.
Click to expand...

You may think you have, but some of these folks have an amazing ability to find loopholes. It's more than just marking things "confidential and proprietary". And more than even following FAR Subpart 15.6 on Unsolicited Proposals.

I was once involved in a government project (as a manufacturer), where the government took clearly marked confidential commercial specifications, and issued them as a global Request for Information. I have found the government to be a poor business partner in most respects, and particularly dangerous/damaging to small businesses, startups and "idea-men"... unless you are "connected".
 
I would second the opinion that the Govt is a a tough partner to work with in some areas. Funding fundamental research (like through DARPA) is where they excel though.

The advice given above about changing an invention by 15% is an internet myth right up there with mailing yourself an envelope and never opening it. It is so wrong on so many levels. Ignore that post.

My earlier comment about looking for a university to work with is two part: 1) Outstanding value for the work done (Sr. Design classes, engineering faculty, DoD funding experience) and 2) The Govt will always look more favorably on a company who is partnering with a University then just a company. Speaking from experience of being involved in $100's of millions of dollars of Federal Research funding, a great big chunk of that DoD funding.

You can always PM for additional information. I can direct you to Florida resources in your area or up in central florida that could help you out.

Good luck
 
Maybe drop a line to magpul, they seem to be open to innovative weapons design

Also look into learning how to use or find a friend that can use the cad program SolidWorks
You can build a working piece if machinery in it, then use the program to stress test it, get fasteners and parts lists etc...
My college tractor pull team at UF is building this years tractor entirely on the computer before we ever turn a wrench
 
Solid Works!

The trend in industry today is to build everything in a Sim environment and do the testing and modeling there. You can work out major design flaws and only have to build one or two actual prototypes... the way of the future :D
 
And of course, you don't want to be building any full auto capable prototypes in your basement if you're not an 07FFL/SOT...
 
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