Where to find Angel investors interested in a small firearm related startup?

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Without a SBR tax stamp or a 16" barrel already in your possession, that kit has felony written all over it. Shame on Amazon for selling that junk without a even a warning that you need a $200 tax stamp/registration or 16" barrel to make it legal.

US v Thompson case hinged on the fact that their kit included the stock AND a 16" barrel togther. That KPOS kit does not include the 16" barrel. It does not get the same exception as US v Thompson. It's an unregistered illegal SBR (if you posses the gun to mount it on).
 
If there is no configuration in which it that stock can be assembled legally, then yeah, it's constructive possession. You'd better have a 16" barrel somewhere to go with that stock or it's an unregistered SBR.

. ATF Ruling 2011-4.pdf

In summary the ATF made the following findings.

Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when un-assembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:

(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including - (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.


Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later un-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/atf/


Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/
 
How about a glock 34, or a 17L, with a nice red dot on it, and call it a day, I don't think you need any more do dads than that. The rest looks like a mall ninja to me, heck If you want a rifle just buy a rifle or a carbine. Those long barreled glocks are pretty darn accurate to me.
 
this thread is too funny...

"inventor": "look at my great idea!!!"

forum: "mmmh... ok... what's the purpose?"

"inventor": "it's good for this and that and look at my design drafts!"

forum: "dude... that's a SBR!"

"inventor": "no - it's not!!"

forum: "yes it is!"

"inventor": "look at the ATF letter!"

forum: "so it is a SBR..."

"inventor": "but only with the shoulder stock!"

forum: "ok... but without a shoulder stock your innovation doesn't make sense...."

"inventor" : "I'm gonna sell it as a kit so people can build their own SBR and break the law"


... comedy gold....
 
>texasgun
No, actually I think you said you cant shoot it without a stock and I showed you that a Mossberg Persuader (which you refused to acknowledge) is held exactly the same way - which pretty much negates your point, in my opinion.

...but hey, haters are going to hate. I came in here excited to share with you what I thought was somthing cool and to ask advice, and I got it. Thank you. I will take your thoughts into consideration moving forward.
 
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Yet we are your target audience and you're not getting a positive response.

Allowing both of the operator’s hands to manipulate a single longer firearm, instead of two short ones

Do you not know you can't add a forward grip to a pistol for exactly that reason? That makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon). A different NFA item also requiring a tax stamp/registration.

a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html
 
Notice in the letter is says "some other type of firearm"? They mean an AOW. Your kit will have two include 16" barrels for each pistol or it's an SBR kit and considered an unregistered firearm by itself.

Your stated goals of attempting to "side step" and provide for illegal use are proof of your "intent" to assist others in a felony. If/when someone actually does it, you are already a conspirator in that crime. That's serious legal do-do for you. If you actually produced this and someone does those things your are legally tied to them because of these posts. Your only way out is to never sell it to the public.

You need to speak to a firearms lawyer before you do anything else. I'm pretty sure he will say your posts here have already permanently sunk your boat.

A Modular NEDG Conversion kit = (1) Rifle Kit + (1) Pistol Kit.
The ‘rifle kit’ includes (1) stock, (1) receiver, (1) free flow barrel, and (1) barrel cap. The ‘pistol kit’ includes only the receiver and barrel cap. However, if both the rifle kit and the pistol kit are joined together, the resulting weapon forms a short-barreled NEDG rifle (or ‘SBR’) WHICH REQUIRES A FEDERAL TAX STAMP. At this point, the stock must be removed to avoid being in violation of the law. Luckily much of the double gun functionality remains largely unchanged and the resulting NEDG can potentially be fired:

1.) More accurately than either of the firearms that comprise it, whether ‘carefully aimed’, using the sighting apparatus (and possibly a shoulder stock) or ‘quickly pointed’ and fired ‘from the hip’ (as one might fire a double barreled shotgun or a fully automatic rifle).
2.) In a manner which is safer than shooting two firearms at once, and…
3.) ‘Immediately and without hesitation’ - even if the operator is in the process of reloading the unit (something not normally possible with any other conventional automatic or semi-automatic firearm).

The ‘unable to fire while reloading’ flaw inherent in other designs:
What makes this weapon different than other conventional firearms is that the forward grip of a NEDG serves not only as an additional grip, but is also capable of triggering a bullet to be fired. This is a critical distinction, as it solves a key and inherent flaw in the ‘load-chamber/cock-fire-reload’ cycle common among most semi and fully automatic firearms.

Normally, when an operator is firing two handguns, for example, the operator will inevitably run both firearms empty, or just one of firearms empty, and need to reload the weapon(s) again before it (/they) become(s) useful again. This normally forces the operator into the position where they may have to put down/stow their only loaded firearm, and ‘take the loaded firearm off the target’, in order to ‘free up a hand’, so as to have one available to reload their empty weapon.

This ‘unable to fire while reloading’ flaw is seen in virtually every handheld semi or full automatic firearm used today, and it leaves the operator temporarily (but completely) defenseless, unable to return fire (in Military/Law Enforcement situations) in a potentially life threatening situation, when there actually was no need to be, because the operator was in possession of a loaded weapon, but was unable to make use of it, because it is not possible to operate the loaded firearm and reload the empty firearm, at the same time.

How kits improve accuracy:
The invention also enhances the operator’s accuracy, when firing two firearms by:

Allowing both of the operator’s hands to manipulate a single longer firearm, instead of two short ones, which results in greater shooter stability and ultimately better accuracy, even ‘from the hip’. In the case of the free-fired firearm, even though the firearm is not braced, a longer firearm is naturally easier to point accurately, the longer its overall length, even if the barrel of the firearm is not lengthened.

• Providing a safe and sturdy platform, suited to adding a butt stock. By giving the operator the ability to add a shoulder stock, the firearm is easier to aim without wavering.

• Providing a safe and sturdy platform, suited to adding a adding a single scope (or single set of sights) that can be used for firing either one (or both) of the firearms, without the need for a second scope (or second set of sights) to aim and fire the other firearm.

Shooting a NEDG is safer than shooting 2 pistols at once
NEDGs enhance the safety of:
• Other people and property, by ensuring both barrels stay generally focused on the same target, and one firearm cannot errantly discharge in an unintended direction, due to an accidental, reckless, or negligent discharge.
• The operator, by ensuring they don’t inadvertently shoot themselves when shooting 2 firearms simultaneously or in close proximity in time and distance to each other.
• The firearms, by ensuring the operator can’t inadvertently shoot one of the firearms with the other firearm, when shooting 2 firearms simultaneously or in close proximity to each other.

Consumer Selling Points:
The redundant design ensures reliability and that its operator is always able to fire the unit, even if they are in the middle of a process (such as reloading or clearing a jam) that would render the operator of a conventional firearm defenseless and vulnerable. A ‘double gun’ has two completely redundant and independent firing assemblies, which translates into increased reliability, since a problem with one of the firing assemblies would have no bearing on the other one being able to fire, greatly reducing the chances of an operator being unable to fire the weapon at a critical moment.

By removing the stock, we eloquently sidestepped the Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) laws, which would have prevented civilians from owning a NEDG unless they also got a Federal tax stamp. Thanks to United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. - 504 U.S. 505 (1992), civilians should be allowed to own ALL the pieces of the kit - including parts that could be used to make an SBR - even if they do NOT have a tax stamp.

Normally just being in possession of an SBR kit would constitute a punishable offense, but because the SBR law was ruled ‘ambiguous’, a rule of lenity was declared in that case, allowing defendants ‘the benefit of the doubt’ when they are caught in possession of all the pieces of a kit, which could be configured into both legal and illegal configurations.
What this means is a person could buy this unregistered, unregulated firearm accessory, and in the case of a ‘SHTF scenario’, configure it however they wanted, without any regard for the law. While this may sound absurd to many, this ‘I-could-if-I-needed-to’ perceived benefit is definitely not lost on our target audience, and is actually one of its strongest selling points.



It’s a ‘ban-buster’ - the new high capacity bans coming out do not take into account that a weapon could have more than one magazine, which means a NEDG offers those with smaller capacity (post ban) magazines twice the legal limit, and those with pre-ban magazines at least 4X the capacity… making a NEDG even more attractive had these bans not gone into place.

A NEDG is capable of producing overwhelming firepower. A NEDG holds twice the amount of bullets a conventional firearm carries, ready to fire. While ‘overwhelming’ is a subjective and relative term, a firearm with twice the firepower is at least a clear step in the right direction toward that goal.

A combatant armed with a NEDG is more likely to survive a firefight than if they were armed with a conventional weapon. We maintain combatants will live longer if they always have a loaded weapon in their hand that is always ready to be fired immediately and repeatedly, without hesitation, than if they did not have access to such a weapon. While we have no figures to support this claim, we believe there is a percentage of battlefield casualties that can be attributed to jams and running out of bullets at inopportune moments in battle, and we believe our NEDG design could reduce this number.

A NEDG is easier to use in a panic situation. ‘Easier’ is a subjective term, but we maintain a double gun is not twice as complex as a conventional rifle, even though it has twice the firepower. To us, 'easier' means shooting ‘more’ and reloading ‘half as often’ - and if any question or confusion arises, pointing the weapon at the enemy and pulling both triggers.

A NEDG is more lethal. On an individual case basis, a combatant could shoot two bullets at once at the enemy, causing twice the damage, with twice the knockdown power. And at a greater theoretical level, if a team of combatants is never defenseless during reloading… and carries twice the bullets ready to fire in their weapons than they normally do… with less chances of malfunctions due to a NEDG’s redundant design - that team would be, by definition, ‘more lethal’.

A NEDG is able to extend and add new battlefield capabilities to equipment already in the inventory. In short, the NEDG has new and additional functionality - functionality that goes beyond what can be achieved using two firearms individually (one at a time) or at the same time (one in each hand). That's because the question is not actually a question of how many firearms the operator can with them at one time, it's a question of how many hands the operator needs to reload a magazine of an empty gun, while still holding a fully loaded firearm aimed at the target. And the answer to that question, up to now, is it has always taken three or more hands… but now, if the operator is holding a NEDG, they only need two, and we believe this difference could potentially change things on the battlefield.
 
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There is no need to reference another letter from the BATF, when the BATF already told me how they classified my invention, and I posted that.

As far as configuring it as an SBR... with or without a tax stamp... I already said "even though we would never suggest doing that, for obvious legal reasons. But modular designs allow consumers more options... some of them illegal, if they don't get the stamp... but if they dont want to get the stamp and not shoot it in that manner, well, then that's just one more option." I'm merely stating a fact that someone might improperly use the product in an illegal configuration --not that I am encouraging them to do so. If I sell the item, I will include clear instructions NOT to configure it in an illegal configuration, obviously, I'm actually thinking about engraving it on the gun.

The idea is to sell the entire kit so people can get the stamps they need to do whatever they want. If it wasn't for the Thompson Case, I couldn't sell the kit at all, even if the person only wanted the variants which do not require tax stamps.
 
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They said it would be "some other type of firearm". The letter I posted tells you why it will be an AOW NFA firearm. With a stock and no 16" barrel it will also be an SBR. Either way, it's an NFA. Go ahead and build/submit your prototype and then you will find out if it's an NFA. Don't act surprised when that is what they tell you. You'd better have an SOT build it for you, or they can prosecute you for the single prototype you build and submit.

2 big difference between you and Thompson; 1) their kit included a 16" barrel, 2)They never suggested using it illegally as you have done in this thread. Additionally they had to fight a long legal battle to get acceptance and prove they were legit. You're starting off on the wrong foot by claiming there is a loop hole and suggesting the end user can break the law.
One thing you will have in common, is lots of money spent on lawyers. Better do it now before the ATF charges you with something.

So far you've proven you know nothing about firearms laws or business. You have repeatedly suggested how people can break federal law. I don't see how this will never make it to market. I predict another lock coming to this thread.
 
Enough. This obviously needs a whole lot more, very careful, investigation before anyone gets themselves tangled up with it.
 
The OP has questioned some of the legal interpretations offered by various folks and asked that this thread not be closed on incorrect information. So here's my take as a lawyer on things:

  1. I am not going to offer an opinion as to whether or to what extent or under what circumstances the OP's design (the NEDG) might raise issues under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA). It appears that the NEDG can be configured in multiple ways, and a variety of those ways have been discussed in the thread. Some possible configurations appear to be classifiable as a short barrel rifle or Any Other Weapon for NFA purposes.

  2. But too many possible configurations have been discussed as well as the possibility of the NEDG being configurable by the user. So the NFA status of the NEDG is something of a moving target.

  3. I note that the OP apparently received a letter from the ATF which he believes clears things up, but he has not produced the entire letter for our review. He has only posted a small, scanned portion. And in that portion, the ATF writes:
    ...We reiterate, however, that in order to make an official classification, an actual finished sample would need to be submitted to FTB for evaluation....

  4. Complying with the NFA (as well as complying with all other relevant laws, including laws relating to soliciting investments) is the OP's problem. There is no reason to in any possible way risk making it THR's problem by either offering further comment or keeping this thread open.
 
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