I designed a gun that never runs out of bullets...

[nofishbob]

And of course, you don't want to be building any full auto capable prototypes in your basement if you're not an 07FFL/SOT...

Without being too cynical, I do not think that the OP will run afoul of the BATFE since by his description, his invention would not use projectiles and explosive propellents..if it did, it could "run out" of them.

I am thinking a particle beam or "laser".

Edited to add: I have been successful patenting inventions using the following books:

Patent it Yourself by David Pressman and How to Make Patent Drawings by Jack Lo and David pressman. I used AutoDesk Inventor for the solid modeling and patent drawing take-offs.

Good luck!

Bob

 

[bergmen]

I have gone through the PPA and eventual Utility Patent process on one of my own inventions. I kept my cards close to my chest prior to submittal of the PPA, but once that is submitted you are in a more protected position (as far as IP is concerned). You can legally claim "Patent Pending" which says a lot about the level of protection that exists. A properly executed NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) is always wise whenever dealing with someone where you need to show a few cards and still be protected. This is SOP in Industry in general.

One thing to keep in mind is the more this idea is worth (even if it is patented) the juicier it will be to those who have the resources to find a supportable technicality to invalidate your Utility Patent and nab your precious invention.

Another aspect to consider is any entity that is capable of investing in your grand scheme will be much more impressed if they see that you have invested in it (with the associated risk) with your own resources first. As others have mentioned, nothing speaks louder than a demonstrated operating model of what you are attempting to develop into a production-worthy device. You can form working relationships with fabricators who are bound by industry-wide confidentiality protocols (as well as signed NDA's if necessary) so that you can build your prototypes with your designs held in strict confidence. If any fabricator would breech this confidence, it would be the kiss-of-death for their business.

I have been a Mechanical Engineer by profession for a few decades and hold several patents, all but one owned by the companies I worked for at the time.

Be careful, do not get discouraged, seek expert professional assistance and good luck to you in your endeavors.

Dan

 

[2000Yards]

There is some good advice in this thread; not all, but some. With respect to a couple of your comments:

If your concept is sufficiently new and you've captured that well enough in your PPA, then manufacturing changes or other design tweaks should not be outside the scope of a patent issued from that provisional. There are no rules about how much a design change will protect someone from infringing a patent - it depends on the patent. If it's broad enough it will cover every design of your idea imaginable. If it's too narrow then you'd actually have to work pretty hard to infringe it.

On that note, if you are serious about pursuing this and you really believe in it, don't half-ass it. By that I mean hire professionals who know what they are doing. I've worked with SO MANY inventors who went through the provisional process and filed their own utility application, but they get bogged down in the patent process before they finally hire an attorney. By this point there's not much I can do. Half the time they've completely lost any value in their idea and the other half the time there's so little value left that there's no point in pursuing it any further.

There's nothing magical about writing a patent application, it is however an art and a science that people spend years learning to do well. I've seen about two out of one hundred cases where an extremely motivated and highly intelligent inventor did a passable job at writing a utility application with no formal training. People's opinion on this will vary, but it typically takes a well-educated and smart patent attorney about 3 years of formal training before they are competant and another 2-3 years before they are good. There are plenty of stories about "My cousin Bob wrote his own patent and it issued in 6 months - it's easy to do yourself!" Good for Bob, maybe he's part of that 2%...

Finally, NDA's and povisionals/applications/patents protect you only to the extent that you have the resources to enforce them. Be very careful about disclosing what you have, and as others have said the patent promotion shops are often a scam.

 

[doc2rn]

If you need $$$ for a prototype the Gov will usually give you a research grant. Of course the DoD will usually want to have first dibs on the aquisition of some new toy. Which means you may need to bring on a manufacturing partner to split the block of $$$ the gov will give you, ie the AA-12 was built by and for the military only. No chance of a civillian getting one, which limits the market A LOT.

 

[hammerklavier]

I suspect he's pulling our legs and his invention is actually something else that he doesn't want to disclose...

 

[hammerklavier]

Like hollow points with holes drilled in them

 

[mnrivrat]

Me Too ! It's called a broken gun .

 

[Sam Cade]

Like hollow points with holes drilled in them

Whatever happened to that guy?

 

[MachIVshooter]

Or solicit private VC to fund a prototype. This also kinda assumes I don't take it to a firearms manufacturer, but rather just a fabricator, where it's more unlikely they have what it takes to do much more than I can (they dont have an outlet for the product.) In other words, a massive gun maker has everything they need to go to market, whereas the local fabricator doesn't have a retail outlet or govt. connections.

Be careful. Since we don't know the specifics of your design, we can't tell you if it qualifies as a firearm in the eyes of BATFE. But, if it does, you cannot have a non-licensed person or firm manufacture it for you. You can subcontract most of it, but you will have to finish the receiver on your own. A machinist could make much of it for you, but the last 20% of the work has to be completed by you or a licensed manufacturer.

 

[Tinker]

RobV,

(no expert here, so take my advice as you will) I do have one patent. Unfortunately, one of those that nobody wants , so no fruit fell from the money tree :banghead:

I like Fish Miner's idea about hooking up with a university. That is what I did when I worked there. Kind of cool....they had an army of patent professionals and all I had to do was submit drawings to the office. They did the patent work and it cost me nothing. Of course, they are entitled to half of potential profits, but the way I see it half of something is better than all of nothing.

Bergmen,

(gathered from your name, location and posting info that you are the Pfranc connector inventor)
Just want to say that you, sir, are a bada$$.....the Pfrancs I bought from you are still working flawlessly on my Etrex and 60csx GPS units. Service, fit and finish....outstanding. And you crank them out in your shop, to boot. The little micro chopper I saw you flying on Youtube is awesome too.

 

[Tinker]

Bergmen,

Ignore the latter of my last post.....the guy I was thinking about is named Larry Bergman and he lives in Oregon. I'm not a professor, but I am absent minded sometimes.

 

[possom813]

I already have a weapon that never runs out of ammo...I call it, "Sling Shot"


Anyways, good luck with the patent. I just started down the path to try and get a patent on an idea I've had for a long time.

 

[Husker_Fan]

I am a patent attorney. I'd be happy to refer you to someone in Florida if you want.

The patent process is really an art, and you always have to keep the end goal in mind - not getting a patent, but getting a patent that is has value. A good patent attorney will be worth the cost.

 

[josiewales]

delete

 

[Millwright]

Do you have any sort of working prototype or demonstrator ? Until/unless you can offer "proof of concept" - in the form of hardware or engineered drawings - you won't get any where; either with existing mfgs or venture capitalists. Particularly with an idea so revolutionary as you describe. >MW

 

[RobV]

Guys, thank you again for all the input.

>One thing to keep in mind is the more this idea is worth (even if it is patented) the juicier it will be to those who have the resources to find a supportable technicality to invalidate your Utility Patent and nab your precious invention.

That's my issue. I think the only way to solve this is with more patents (pending, for now) and enough money in a bank account to pay for at least one law suit.


>As others have mentioned, nothing speaks louder than a demonstrated operating model of what you are attempting to develop into a production-worthy device.

I agree.

>You can form working relationships with fabricators who are bound by industry-wide confidentiality protocols (as well as signed NDA's if necessary) so that you can build your prototypes with your designs held in strict confidence.

This is the safest line, but it costs some money. This doesn't deter me - it's the number one option I'm looking at right now, for the reasons you mentioned.

> we can't tell you if it qualifies as a firearm in the eyes of BATFE
I'm aware of the benefits of getting an FFL from another project I'm working on... see this related post:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=676985
...but thank you for pointing out that 'just because you can' doesn't mean you can't get arrested

>I like Fish Miner's idea about hooking up with a university.
Me too. We actually spoke on the phone and talked in general terms about what resources were available to someone in my position around the country. Yesterday I filled out an application to get in contact with the University of Central Florida's Venture Lab. It seemed like a great fit, because I'm capable of doing what needs to be done, but I need guidance and some examples, which they provide. They will even look at my Unsolicited Proposal to ARDEC, give me their advice on whether or not I should submit it, and if so how to improve upon what I already have. From what I understand, they need grant money, and to get grant money they need a fundable idea... and I believe I have one.... so if they think I do too, then maybe the government will agree as well, and things will go smoothly

>I'd be happy to refer you to someone in Florida if you want.
I've spoken with 2 that gave me feedback on just my PPA, and a third is helping find me someone down here that specializes in firearm patents, so thank you but right now I have more lawyers than I can afford

>I do have one patent. Unfortunately, one of those that nobody wants
That's what I was trying to avoid. Right now I've spent 3 weeks on the project and $500. This is the sweet spot. The hardest work - coming up with a good idea and getting it down on paper so it's as clear as day to any normal person, is the hard part. My fear is that a team of motivated lawyers will somehow get around what I wrote. How? I have no idea. I already patched everything I could find. But that doesn't mean it can't be done.

>hardware or engineered drawings - you won't get any where; either with existing mfgs or venture capitalists.
I agree. I promise once I can disclose the idea, I will come back and show it to you. But until then, all I can say is that I did not create anything 'new', like a laser. I stood on the shoulders of giants and saw a way to combine existing things to create new functionality. Have you ever seen anyone open a bottle of wine with a shoe? It's kinda like that.

So once again, thank you everyone for your advice. I really appreciate it. Now I got to go and actually do some work, based on all this research

 

[RobV]

whoops, missed this post:

>If your concept is sufficiently new and you've captured that well enough in your PPA, then manufacturing changes or other design tweaks should not be outside the scope of a patent issued from that provisional. There are no rules about how much a design change will protect someone from infringing a patent - it depends on the patent. If it's broad enough it will cover every design of your idea imaginable. If it's too narrow then you'd actually have to work pretty hard to infringe it.

THIS is where I'm totally lost. I'm trying to determine what is too narrow, what is too vague. Right now I can easily do anything I want to tweak the design to fit the needs of any manufacture. I built that in like that for a reason. But maybe that makes it too vague... my lawyers say it's fine. I would rather try to get some outside help playing devils advocate to tighten it up.


On that note, if you are serious about pursuing this and you really believe in it, don't half-ass it.
I'm completely with you on this

By that I mean hire professionals who know what they are doing.
One is a Silicon Valley IP Attorney, who used to be my IP attorney back when he was cheaper and didn't live in California. I also paid Brad at http://patentfile.org/ to help me get everything down on paper. That was well worth the money. I also have a LegalZoom account and had them do the patent search. Now that I got some feed back from several ex-military and LEOs, I'll probably use LegalZoom to help me with one patent, get more outside review, and then write the following ones myself (for the large part), after having a patent strategist help me make sure it's far easier to buy me out than re-engineer a back door.

>Good for Bob, maybe he's part of that 2%...
If you want to call me Bob thats fine -I also go by Rob and Bobby In my other life, I'm a web strategist, so I'm used to breaking ideas down into business requirements and technical requirements. This is basically the same thing, just much more formal and precise. I actually like it.

>Finally, NDA's and povisionals/applications/patents protect you only to the extent that you have the resources to enforce them.

Part of my budget is to have enough VC money in my budget to take one case all the way to it's conclusion, and have that 'on call' before engaging a big manufacture. Iron clad IP and $100k in the bank, is enough for them to play nice. It's the bare minimum, in my mind right now.