I don't get sporterizing...

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You could just sell the military rifle to fund a new hunting rifle if you don't appreciate the history of the gun.
Most of them HAVE NO significant history.
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For a milsurp to have any real value to a collector, it would need a few things. One is in 90% or better condition. Two is a providence (actual use in a historic battle or whatever) with written PROOF. Or three, the collector just has more money than brains and just wants an old military rifle.

Mauser, Lee Enfield, 1903, Mosin, and many others, were all produced in the hundreds of thousands to millions. Simple point of view is this. I am taking a few of these millions and turning them into functional tools once again. When I have several offers in the upper hundreds on the rifles I take the time and care to make, that sorta tells me I am doing a good job and I will continue to do so as long as I can.

Where you see an antique military rifle, I see a piece of clay waiting to be molded into a beautiful work of art to be put into the hands of a child to take into the field and enjoy our wonderful tradition of hunting. CAN I just go out and buy hunting rifle? SURE I can and do! But the key thing here is, it is something that I enjoy doing, it is something I am fairly good at (or so many have told me anyway), and to say this again, it is something traditional I can pass down to the following generation.
 
......errrr.... point me at a hunting rifle i can get for $40, and ill buy that and tinker with it, Or 100 even? (this is assuming i have two pennies to rub together, and right now i dont LOL).
 
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I just wanted to say this is a great thread. I have an old Spanish Mauser I have been meaning to do something with for a while. I haven't gotten to it yet but this thread is giving me some ideas. I hope I don't offend anyone by wanting to alter it. It was given to me in the late '80's by a guy I worked with for helping him pull an engine. The guy who gave it to me didn't really know what it was. It had been wrapped in duct tape & spray painted black. I refinished the wood & reblued it with a cold blue. I just don't shoot it much as the iron sights are sighted in at 300 meters. I would like to set it up as a hunting rifle.
 
LoL Mike, dun worry, you'll offend enough people by altering it. Its yours tho do with it as you please.
 
I have to laugh at the folks who say you are disrespecting the soldiers who carried the gun. I'm pretty sure most of those soldiers were not in love with their rifles and furthermore would have been very happy to shave a few pounds off and/or have better sights, butt pad, etc. A tastefully up-dated rifle honors the firearm itself. I have shooters and game takers in my cabinet, not a mini museum.
 
From what I understand, sporterizing destroys the value of the rifle. I inherited a Remington 1903/A3 that was sporterized. It is worth only half as much as it would be in it's military configuration. I'm sure it was fun for whoever did it, but it still destroyed the value of it. The cheap Mosin Nagant today will be a lot more valuable in a few decades. I'm sure those 1903/A3's were dirt cheap a few decades ago.

I used to fall asleep in history class. Now that I am older I really appreciate history.
 
From what I understand, sporterizing destroys the value of the rifle.
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Correct. If you have an all-correct rifle like a Springfield, as I said earlier, you will wind up spending $400 to turn an $800 rifle into a $300 rifle.
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Not always true, depends on who does the work. Big difference between Joe Blow working in his basement to a custom gunsmith like Greg Wolf out on the east coast. A good custom gunsmith will turn the $800 Springfield into a $2000 rifle very quickly, won't even mention the cost if someone wants engraving. Will it be worth that much to a military purist? No...but it probably wasn't worth $800 to the guy looking for a custom hunting rifle either.

Any gun any where in the world is only worth what someone will pay for it...not a penny more.

This 1903 recently sold for $1600 for example...

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19031.jpg
 
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For me, I like iron sights so scoping isn't an issue, and shooting a milsurp in original configuration makes it more comfortable to shoot during extended range sessions. With the full stock it only weighs a couple more pounds, and makes recoil more manageable. My 30-06 that weighs about 6 pounds feels like getting hit in the shoulder with a baseball bat when firing it. I have no problem shooting a 10lb mil surp all day long. You may only fire once or twice in the woods while hunting, but guns that are more comfortable to shoot, I am more likely to practice with and shoot better as a result.
 
For me I find it just flat stupid to do it in this day in age. If I had $1600 to spend on a rifle I would get a something along the lines of a Nosler, Sauer, Weatherby, Anschutz......... not some cut up military rifle. Sure you can pretty it up and I am sure some sucker will buy a prettyed up rifle, but IMHO he is doing what they call in the car business buying paint.

Military rifles are what they are, don't make them into something they are not. I have a sporter Krag I got when the wifes uncle died, worth about $150. My un-f'ed with Krag carbine gets another zero added. Father in law said they bought it for $25 at a hardware store back in the 50's. His jaw dropped when he saw the prices people are asking for them on gunbroker. The same will go with the cheap military rifles today....look at sks prices, you don't see them for $89 any more. I understand the older conversions from the 40's-60's but after that....why? So you can prove that you can? So you can say...Hay mommy look what I did ain't it neat? Well you sure did a nice job but there is this brand new (insert model here) that will shoot better, is brand new, not subject to who knows what (they are old military rifles after all) For me if I am looking for a nice historic rifle I want it in its original configuration....if I want a nice hunting rifle then I will buy a nice hunting rifle.

I think that the people that chop up the rifles are destroying history...no other way around it. If you want a cheap hunting rifle they are out there...if you want to spent $4000+ on a hunting rifle they are out there.

Some may say that a nice sporter is worth a lot...perhaps it is, but it does not have any value...it's heart and soul has been cut away.

I know I will have to dawn a flame proof suit after some people read this, but it is just how I feel...you are killing history.
 
For me I find it just flat stupid to do it in this day in age. If I had $1600 to spend on a rifle I would get a something along the lines of a Nosler, Sauer, Weatherby, Anschutz......... not some cut up military rifle. Sure you can pretty it up and I am sure some sucker will buy a prettyed up rifle, but IMHO he is doing what they call in the car business buying paint.
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Sure you could go buy one of those mass produced factory jobs. OR, for less than $1400 (MUCH less if you know how to do things yourself) you can build one off an old military action that NOONE would have ever used again that will shoot as well or BETTER than that $1400 dollar factory job!

I think that the people that chop up the rifles are destroying history...no other way around it. If you want a cheap hunting rifle they are out there...if you want to spent $4000+ on a hunting rifle they are out there.
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Could you PLEASE show me the history behind an arsenal reconditioned Lee Enfield Number 4 Mark II. Nope you can't. Nor can you with 99% of any other milsurp. The only real value ANY of the milsurps have is whatever value that some collector wishes to put on it because of some sentimental connection it may have with a certain war, battle, or soldier. All of those are based off of proven providence of certain rifles. Other than those few rifles, out of MILLIONS produced, the "value" and "history" that some of you put on these milsurps is completely unearned.

The old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is of utmost importance in this thread. What some of you guys think is beautiful or a piece of history is, in essence, nothing but a tool that is being neglected for it's intended purpose. I take some of these old actions and breathe new life in them. I make them functional (often more so than ANY factory new hunting rifle you will EVER buy) and beautiful. As do many others.

I would be MORE than willing to put several of my builds off of K98's up against ANY factory produced off the shelf hunting rifle you wish to bring on. My wood's better, my action is stronger, my triggers are crisper, my barrels are more accurate, and they just out and out look better! I hand fit EVERY piece to assure quality. THAT gentlemen is not done in factories. You can bet that any factory tolerances are nowhere NEAR as stringent as mine or a LOT of other members of this board.
 
Well said fpgt72. Future generations of people may want a rifle in it's original military configuration that is affordable. If you sporterize these guns fewer people will be able to own a piece of history in the future.

I think it is important for future generations to be able to own a historic firearm in it's original configuration. It is still a piece of history even if documentation is not attached to the rifle.
 
The rifle is a part of history. Bottom line.

Some people think it is ok to turn a 64 corvette into a monster truck, others think it should remain the classic it is. Just because it has been restored or reconditioned does not mean it has no history. Sure you can justify it in your mind that hay it is just a car and I am making it better....when infact you may just bolt on some parts and call it better.

This is a subject that will really turn people one way or the other, the people that look at that old Krag and say WHY. and others that say why not.

You can always make something old better with todays tech....so why not change everything....heck they all have been reconditioned at some point in history....we should just start cutting up everything old to make it the way some people with no value at all on the past want it to be....pretty short sited.....

heck that .45 luger that is the only one in existance just is not of any use as a firearm...so lets just change it to suit my needs.

Now we will get into the well that is the only one in existance that has value...so where do you draw the line, at a priceless luger, adding to a WWI 1911 so you don't get hammer bite....when does something become to where someone will not mess it up.

Everything at some point has been reconditioned....that is not the point, the point is that rifle has history...it was there. By your reasoning everything is up for grabs as it has had a screw replaced somewhere along the line.

What a shame for future generations.
 
It depends on the rifle. I handled a .308 M1 Garand with an 18 inch barrel. It completely messed up the balance for me. It just didn't feel right. When I checked the price, it REALLY didn't feel right ($1100). I handled an old 1903 Springfield that was well done. Many of these old rifles were sporterized when they were a dime-a-dozen.
 
So are 8-tracts and leisure suits.
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My point exactly right there. fpgt72, by your own reasoning, NOTHING should ever be discarded, reconditioned, modernized, upgraded, screw twisted, or anything else! EVERYTHING that was here yesterday is HISTORY. What is more important about a tool that I want to make better suited to me and what I want than that toaster that my dad used every morning? Not a damn thing. They are both tools that were manufactured for a purpose. It is that purpose that I intend to make the rifles I do better for ME. Sure there are a FEW rifles and handguns that actually DO have a place in museums but those are extremely rare.
 
don't knock 8-tracks & leisure suits, just last week i was cruising in my vintage pinto sporting my leisure suite while listening to tunes on my 8-track. i would have taken the pacer but i save it for special occasions.

of the four highest selling springfield 1903's on gunbroker in the last three months two of them were sporters and the highest selling 1903 was a sporter. it takes a minty sniper to compete with a classic sporter and i'd take the sporters over the generic snipers.

1903 built by "S" man in the 20's $4825.00
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=251061936

1903A4 sniper $4250.00 no need to put a picture cause they all look the same.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=251020853

1903a4 sniper $4100.00 no need for a pic cause its just another generic 03a4
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=249770868

A O Niedner 1903 $3730.00
pix401812308.gif

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=254691212
 
Oh no Jim, Not the Pacer! For heavens sake don't drive THAT classic! images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRL8nRPKK8e1mKRYYYZnkXhlpC6arWvjp_k5LsREUAZ3dPSmoA.jpg

Oh wait, Jim, so you are saying that there are sporterized rifles that actually sell at a HIGHER price than the Holy unmolested military surplus? You mean to sit there and try to tell us that there are actually people in the world that like these rifles that some of us make??? Say it aint soooooooo images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHdyFPQrvUz_VpJdiYHvXL9U41bOFuNP1ItNHRIhKrv_1AqpN3ag.jpg
 
What a lot of you who don't like the idea are missing is that the gun(s) in my shop was whacked BEFORE I got it. It ain't going back to mil-spec because it can't. It is going to turn into something other than a bubba rifle. It's a project. A non-runner into a hot rod :)

Yeah sure, I could rebarrel it, find original sights and stock parts and make it look like history - but it ain't history. It would only be a fake military rifle. Why go there?

Instead, I'll make it a custom toy the way I want it. I repeat, I don't take intact mil-spec rifles and mess with them. I do try to "salvage" bubba rifles :)
 
If done right they look better and are easier to shoot. This one was done in the 50's when it was very popular, original barrel and stock but handguard removed, some judicious wood cutting, and a peep sight.

1891mauser.jpg

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