I don't get sporterizing...

[451 Detonics]

Some may say that a nice sporter is worth a lot...perhaps it is, but it does not have any value...it's heart and soul has been cut away.

I would say my 98 Mauser sporter has far more heart and soul the a new off the shelf Savage. And the fact it gets shot...a lot... just adds to that today.

 

[dirtyjim]

If you want a really nice Mauser 98 sporter, money no object, you can buy one directly from Mauser. http://www.mauser.com/M-98.64.0.html?&L=1

its actually a Prechtl barreled action, its not built by mauser and for the amount of money they go for you can have a world class smith build you one on a prechtl or hartman & weiss action or pick up a original oberndorf mauser sporting rifle.

The invisible hand of economics will solve the problem. When a milsurp is worth more as an original than as a source of sporter parts, sporterizing will cease. Bubba understands cash on the barrel head. That is already happening with some models.

the only thing thats going to stop what you consider a problem is the diminishing skills of the general population. most people now couldn't change a tire on their own much less thread, chamber, crown and install a barrel.
there was a time when the common man had skills, tools and could solve his own problems , sadly those days are all but gone.

when i first started building sporters i would look for previously started or bubba guns as donor rifles. now i try to start with the best donor rifle i can find and preferably all matching. the little bit of money i saved didn't make up for the lost time fixing the previous owners screwups and you loose any money you saved chasing missing parts. another bonus is you have more good condition parts to sell back to collectors.

i've long considered collectors to be the liberals of the shooting world and the thread has flat out confirmed it

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Milsurp snobs...pretty funny, is it not strange how when in an undefenceable position the name calling and attacks in character then starts.

And you calling us "stupid" and "ignorant" is defensible? We have TRIED our best, for no reason other than to attempt to educate you, to show you what we do is not killing any part of history. What we do is revive an old action that many people have simply thrown away. I have NEVER sported a numbers matching, in good shape, all together fine example, of a military rifle. I doubt any poster here has. And there is absolutely NO historical value in taking a beat up old milsurp and reconditioning it back to it's original form BECAUSE it will then have no REAL historical value. It is just another milsurp with non matching numbers.

Collector value is not "gone" if the rifle is a mix master, there was a pretty good thread on this over on one of the garand forums years ago. Does a blue sky M1, or just about any M1 carbine worth less because they where repaired and put back into battle. The general consensus is no, that rifle in its current condition was in battle, has a history already there. This is how the soldier carried the weapon, he did not care if all parts where from Winchester, IBM, IH....whoever....all he cared about is how well it worked.
Actually people will raise an eyebrow at some rifles that are all shiny and matching numbers....do a quick search on Mitchel's Mausers and you will see how true collectors feel about weapons that come from him.

Some people are clearly out of touch with what true military collectors are after. And those that think they are usless and should be hanging on a wall need to get out to a John C Garand match, or any of the long range steel games that require wood military rifles.....A most ignorant and uninformed statement.

And you sir have absolutely NO clue about the real world of collectors. I have been to, and bid in, some of the best antique firearm auctions in the world. I know full well exactly what the real collectors look for. I don't go by what someone on a forum says. I go by REAL world experience. They look for Authenticity, Pedigree, and most of all NUMBERS MATCHING They will run like the wind from one that isn't all numbers matching and AUTHENTICATED as such. Anyone that tells you they will look at it out of the side of their head because the numbers match is completely ignorant of how collectible value works.

Now this can be said, if it was arsenal reconditioned and RE-ISSUED during wartime and has a verifiable pedigree as such, then yes it MAY have some historical value to a select few collectors, but unless it could be PROVEN that it was in the hands of someone in an important battle or in the hands of someone famous, then it would only have whatever value some history buff without a real clue would be willing to pay for it. In all reality, that is all ANY of them are really worth. Whatever someone is willing to pay. I've seen excellent examples of 1903's with all matching numbers and a good pedigree go for as much as $5000.00 while yet another that looks JUST as good but was arsenal refurbished went for only $400. It had no verifiable "history" and was just deemed a "pretty gun".

 

[Kendal Black]

another bonus is you have more good condition parts to sell back to collectors.

There is a point here I do not quite understand; perhaps collectors can clue me in. If you start with a Springfield Bubba special, and have a correct replacement barrel the military would have used, and a surplus sight and a military stock someone else took off and discarded (presume correct cartouches for this case)--If you screw all that together, would that be an authentic rifle, or not?

It seems to me that there is an ethics question here, but I am not sure what it is.

 

[dirtyjim]

There is a point here I do not quite understand; perhaps collectors can clue me in. If you start with a Springfield Bubba special, and have a correct replacement barrel the military would have used, and a surplus sight and a military stock someone else took off and discarded (presume correct cartouches for this case)--If you screw all that together, would that be an authentic rifle, or not?

It seems to me that there is an ethics question here, but I am not sure what it is.

if you do it its unethical, if cmp does it its an authentic rifle with paperwork to prove it

 

[morcey2]

I think there's a misconception on why people like me collect milsurp guns. I'm a collector, not an investor. I'm not buying a gun on the hopes that it will appreciate in value and I can sell it for a profit in 5-10 years. Every gun I buy is bought to be shot. That being said, I buy stuff that's interesting to me.

For example, I have two Finn-captured M91/30's at the moment. One is a 1941 Izhevsk receiver/barrel and has a two piece pot bellied arctic birch stock w/ a war-time splice. The cocking piece is Chatellerault, the bolt body is an old-style tula, as is the magazine/trigger guard. The connecting bar and bolt head are Izhevsk. The bolt body has been renumbered to the barrel, which is correct for a Finn. It also has an M39 trigger that is really smooth.

The other is on a 1933 Tula receiver/barrel and is even more of a mutant. It has a remington cocking piece, Chatellerault bolt body, tula bolt head, ... The stock is a two piece with the back half off an Austrian M91 and the front is a mystery. The austrian stock cartouches are still intact. It also has several arsenal repairs that make it even more interesting. The bore is pretty nasty, but it's

Are either of these priceless jems? Not really, but they're correct for Finn rifles and they are what I'm interested in. I would never convert either of them into a sporter, just because it doesn't make any sense to me. I know that the 1933 was used in battle, and the 1941 probably was too.

I also own a Hungarian 1952 M44. Nothing on it matches, but the bore is in really good shape and it shoots really well. The metal finishing is great and the stock is too. AND it makes huge fireballs when shot near dusk. It's one of the most common M44's out there, but it's still an interesting gun.

Now. I may pick up a refurb M91/30 with a bad bore that I'll put a heavy barrel on for a fun target rifle. I have no problem with that. I also will probably pick up a couple of mauser barrelled-actions to convert into hunting rifles. I'm not trying to save money, but I'm trying to learn something new. Do I think I'm going to destroy any history that is associated with the rifles? No. I think the world will still remember the history even without that particular rifle in pristine condition.

All of my rifles are tools. Others have said that before and they don't understand how anyone can consider a military surplus rifle in original-ish configuration could be considered a tool when a modern rifle works so much better for hunting and target shooting. They probably are and I've got guns for that. But not these. These are a tool to me in the way that a DVD player and TV are to someone else. I enjoy shooting them and they help bring my family together.

As for sporterizing? It's your gun. Do with it what you want. If you want to take an 1894 M91 and turn it into a takti-cool ninja black rifle, go for it. But if you ask me my opinion on it, I'll tell you you're a moron because you could have done the same thing with a $99 refurb and made enough from the sale to cover the conversion and the ammo. But you asked my opinion.

I like guns. All of them. (Ok, except submachine guns and other full auto guns. Mostly because I couldn't afford the ammo anyway. Kindof the sour grapes thing. ) If you don't like milsurp rifles, don't buy them. If you want to buy one and convert it into a hunting rifle, go for it. If you want to buy a bubba-gun and convert it either direction, go for it. If you don't understand what I do with my guns, that's not my problem.

If it goes boom, I like it. At least we're arguing about what to do with guns we own and not whether we should own guns or not.

Matt

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

As for sporterizing? It's your gun. Do with it what you want. If you want to take an 1894 M91 and turn it into a takti-cool ninja black rifle, go for it. But if you ask me my opinion on it, I'll tell you you're a moron because you could have done the same thing with a $99 refurb and made enough from the sale to cover the conversion and the ammo. But you asked my opinion.

Could not agree with that any more if I had a "gun" to my head as well as everything else you said!

There is a point here I do not quite understand; perhaps collectors can clue me in. If you start with a Springfield Bubba special, and have a correct replacement barrel the military would have used, and a surplus sight and a military stock someone else took off and discarded (presume correct cartouches for this case)--If you screw all that together, would that be an authentic rifle, or not?

It seems to me that there is an ethics question here, but I am not sure what it is.

if you do it its unethical, if cmp does it its an authentic rifle with paperwork to prove it

LMAO yep! The old saying "a fool and his money are soon parted" comes to mind there. CMP, for the most part, does a nice job refurbishing milsurps to good "original" condition but so many out there are under the impression that they will be "collectors" items when in fact, you are not getting anything special at all. Sure they shoot great (most the time) and they are great for the competitions but the true "essence of history" of the rifle is no longer there.

 

[Googleplex]

I see both sides of the argument- I would not sporterize a military 03 because they are not as common as they used to be; also, the military configuration needs to be preserved for future generations to appreciate. However, if an 03 was sporterized a long time ago, I would not hesitate to buy it, provided it were in great condition. That would be a spectacular rifle for hunting. Also, if I didn't like the sporter stock currently on it, I could always replace it with a nicer sporting stock.
Enfields are not incredably common anymore either, from what I've seen, and therefore I harbor the same oppinion for them as well. For mausers, however, it depends on condition. A new mitchell's mauser in military config? Heck no I would not sporterize that! But a common, beat up battle field pickup? In a heartbeat. In fact, the resoration associated with the practice- if done right- would bring a dead rifle back to life. Essentially, if you wanna buy a military mauser or maybe even a mosin nagant, buy two- just in case you ever decide you want to make a sporting rifle out of one of them. Of course, the mauser would be a far better sporting rifle, so I wouldn't worry about doing a mosin sporter. My mosin will stay military.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I am kind of two sided on this argument. If the weapon in question is a rare example or something, than no I do not think it should be altered in any way. If it is very common, for example a Mosin Nagant M91/30, than if the modifications will extend the service life of the weapon, for the user, than I don't have a problem with it.

I choose not to sporterize almost any milsurp due to the fact that I see them as effective as they are, nothing else is really needed. But their are a number of people who see otherwise, who desire things like polymer stocks and scopes etc.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

If you don't understand what I do with my guns, that's not my problem.

And the choir said "AMEN"!

 

[jimmyraythomason]

A new mitchell's mauser in military config? Heck no I would not sporterize that! But a common, beat up battle field pickup? In a heartbeat.

I'm exactly the opposite on these two rifles. A "washed" Mitchell's isn't special or rare or collectable. It's just a pretty rifle that usually shoots very well. The battlefield pick-up,on the other hand,just reeks with historical significance. I wouldn't even clean it up much.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I wouldn't call anyone stupid or ignorant. And I have two sporterized rifles -- one of them a beautiful '03 Springfield sporterized by CW Fitch in the late '60s or early '70s. And Fitch knew how to build a rifle. In this case, he reamed out the bore and re-rifled and re-chambered it to .35 Brown-Whelen. Between his precision work on the barrel and his stocking, this is a minute-of-angle rifle and a real thumper.

My other sporterized rifle is a M96 Swedish Mauser. It was one of those Kimber worked over when they emerged from bankruptcy. I got it for less that the cost of an unsporterized Swede. Since then, I have put on a Bold trigger (the original trigger was horrible), picked up a nice walnut stock on sale and finished the inletting, and finally took off the original cheap scope and replaced it with a vintage Weaver K-2.5. In all, I have about $300 in the rifle, and it's a joy to carry and shoot.

But if anyone asks me if they should sporterize a military rifle, I'll say that in general it will cost as much as buying a new commercial rifle. There was a time when sporterizing Mausers and Springfields made sense, but those days are over.

 

[fpgt72]

And you calling us "stupid" and "ignorant" is defensible? We have TRIED our best, for no reason other than to attempt to educate you, to show you what we do is not killing any part of history. What we do is revive an old action that many people have simply thrown away. I have NEVER sported a numbers matching, in good shape, all together fine example, of a military rifle. I doubt any poster here has. And there is absolutely NO historical value in taking a beat up old milsurp and reconditioning it back to it's original form BECAUSE it will then have no REAL historical value. It is just another milsurp with non matching numbers.



And you sir have absolutely NO clue about the real world of collectors. I have been to, and bid in, some of the best antique firearm auctions in the world. I know full well exactly what the real collectors look for. I don't go by what someone on a forum says. I go by REAL world experience. They look for Authenticity, Pedigree, and most of all NUMBERS MATCHING They will run like the wind from one that isn't all numbers matching and AUTHENTICATED as such. Anyone that tells you they will look at it out of the side of their head because the numbers match is completely ignorant of how collectible value works.

Now this can be said, if it was arsenal reconditioned and RE-ISSUED during wartime and has a verifiable pedigree as such, then yes it MAY have some historical value to a select few collectors, but unless it could be PROVEN that it was in the hands of someone in an important battle or in the hands of someone famous, then it would only have whatever value some history buff without a real clue would be willing to pay for it. In all reality, that is all ANY of them are really worth. Whatever someone is willing to pay. I've seen excellent examples of 1903's with all matching numbers and a good pedigree go for as much as $5000.00 while yet another that looks JUST as good but was arsenal refurbished went for only $400. It had no verifiable "history" and was just deemed a "pretty gun".

I know reading IZ hard....I called the statements stupid and.....ohh nevermind.

 

[KevininPa]

To answer the OPs question......

........in my humble opinion, to make it lighter and handier. Strangely enough, I'm getting into collecting milsurps because that was my intentions for the two(I said I was just getting into this!) milsurps I own. Started with a Mauser K98 that I wanted to turn into a woods gun. Posted here and asked questions and got yelled not to. I didn't do it but not for that reason. The reason was a nephew who was really into Mausers. That and almost all the numbers matched, pretty good for a RC.

Just got an Ishapore Enfield that I wanted to turn into a "Gibbs" #7. That thing is like shouldering a 2x6. All numbers matched and was fun to shoot, great action. You guessed it, not touching that one either. Now I'm sliding down that slippery slope of milsurp collecting.

Guess I'll save some $$ and look for a Gibbs or a badly mauled Ishy. Or a Spanish FR8. Or a M44. OMG am I doomed!

BTW, for the record, anyone can do what they to their guns in my eyes. This is America.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Just got an Ishapore Enfield that I wanted to turn into a "Gibbs" #7. That thing is like shouldering a 2x6. All numbers matched and was fun to shoot, great action. You guessed it, not touching that one either. Now I'm sliding down that slippery slope of milsurp collecting.

Guess I'll save some $$ and look for a Gibbs or a badly mauled Ishy. Or a Spanish FR8. Or a M44. OMG am I doomed!

Yep, the Doc has confirmed the diagnosis, you have the milsurp bug! Not a thing wrong with that either. You seem to be having good luck in finding numbers matching, good condition, milsurps. If you want to find a good action to build something off of, there are a good number of folks here that have access to many that will never be anything but build actions. PM me and I can probably hook you up.

 

[fpgt72]

........in my humble opinion, to make it lighter and handier. Strangely enough, I'm getting into collecting milsurps because that was my intentions for the two(I said I was just getting into this!) milsurps I own. Started with a Mauser K98 that I wanted to turn into a woods gun. Posted here and asked questions and got yelled not to. I didn't do it but not for that reason. The reason was a nephew who was really into Mausers. That and almost all the numbers matched, pretty good for a RC.

Just got an Ishapore Enfield that I wanted to turn into a "Gibbs" #7. That thing is like shouldering a 2x6. All numbers matched and was fun to shoot, great action. You guessed it, not touching that one either. Now I'm sliding down that slippery slope of milsurp collecting.

Guess I'll save some $$ and look for a Gibbs or a badly mauled Ishy. Or a Spanish FR8. Or a M44. OMG am I doomed!

BTW, for the record, anyone can do what they to their guns in my eyes. This is America.

I agree with you....yes they can...but lest just hope they never get their hands on a Japanese Type 5, G41, Johnson Automatic Rifle....or any of the other rare birds out there.

I know that a G41 is out of my reach, and aType 5 is something you will never see from the same side of the glass, but Johnsons and G43's are in my reach, I have seen a few, and even seen some sportered, there is even an active thread about trying to restore a G41 that was sprotered after the war....no why do you think those owners are trying to make the rifles back in their military configuration? And make them in that configuration with mix's of parts?

Bottom line is it is your personal property do with it what you will, but I feel the day will come when you might regret the decision.

I said I had a sporter Krag...here is a pic, done by people that had to save months for the $25 price of the rifle, they wanted a hunting rifle and to pretty it up...I understand the thoughts behind doing this in the 50-60's.....however now....I still think there is just no point when good sproting rifles are so inexpensive.

anyway...I think we are spinning our wheels here...so I think I will end this with a pic of the poor sporter Krag.

 

[Art Eatman]

Nine pages seems like enough. This isn't the first go-'round, and I doubt that it will be the last.