I don't get the alternating rounds suggestion?

[Stevie-Ray]

I've never done it in the house, but I have on occasion in the wilds of the Upper Peninsula of our great state. Carried a 10mm with usually a mix of 170gr HP and 200gr solids. The HPs would take care of practically anything that would rear it's ugly head, short of a hungry bear. That's what the solids were for. Actually my mix was 3 HPs and 5 solids.

 

[Bobo]

I carry a mix of FMJ and JHP in my .380 because it is a marginal round as far as penetration and expansion is concerned.

In 9 mm and up it is all JHP.

 

[LkWinnipesaukee]

Cant someone invent a shell with shot AND a slug? It would make a lot of people happier

 

[Zoogster]

LkWinnipesaukee:

Cant someone invent a shell with shot AND a slug? It would make a lot of people happier

They did it is called Buck and Ball. The concept was designed for muskets and naturaly the same principle can be used for modern ammo. However you are still limited by the pressure limitations of the gun meaning you cannot increase the weight of the projectile without decreasing the velocity. That means a standard size slug and a load of buckshot would have to be driven at lower velocity and become less effective. The only solution is the projectiles weighing less, or having less payload, meaning your giving up something on both ends, the devestating power of the slug, and the large number of pellets for shot if you want full velocity. Well there is another solution, a shotgun designed to higher pressures.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

I find alternating my magazine with JHP and hollow point rounds is best.

 

[Gewehr98]

Jeff, now you did it...

So you can direct the fire of the rest of the family members on target?

The secret's out of the bag!

I have indeed wondered what would happen were all my armed family members committed to neutralizing a threat at the same time - odds say "no way", but it certainly would be messy with the tracers directing incoming fire, like some WWII Pathfinder bomber unit dropping flares over the target or radar-guided 88mm Flak batteries homing in on a flight of bombers.

 

[MadMercS55]

I've heard different versions of the alternating rnds loading. I don't do it personally, I stick with all of one type of ammunition in a magazine for handguns, rifles, etc.
I did meet a few guys at my range that only put 2-3 JHP rnds in their sidearms. One JHP in the chamber, and the top rnd or two of the magaine. The rest was FMJ. One guys thinking was only the first 2 or 3 shots mattered the most. The other admitted to being too cheap to buy enough JHP ammunition to fill all 3 magazines.
With shotguns, I do have a friend that keeps a beanbag less-lethal rnd chambered followed by 2 slugs and 2 00 buck.

 

[jerkface11]

Since I was unsure which 10mm round was best for SD I loaded my 15rnders with EVERY type of defensive ammo available. This way I'm sure to get at least one that works in every mag.

 

[Jeff White]

Gewehr98,

I have indeed wondered what would happen were all my armed family members committed to neutralizing a threat at the same time - odds say "no way", but it certainly would be messy with the tracers directing incoming fire, like some WWII Pathfinder bomber unit dropping flares over the target or radar-guided 88mm Flak batteries homing in on a flight of bombers.

Use of tracers to direct the fire of the rest of the fire team/squad is a common technique. In fact it's one of the few real uses for them. With most tracers not tracing until 75 meters or so, I don't think it's a viable option for home defense.

Moderator Note:

Let's keep on topic. Anymore discussion of defeating body armor and this thread is done. If you really, truely believe that you are in danger of running into a body armor clad criminal in your home, use a rifle.

Jeff

 

[Tim Burke]

If my gun is so underpowered that I think I need FMJ for penetration, why would I load any JHP?
Normally the magazine in the gun is JHP. Frequently the spare(s) are FMJ. I could claim it's because I know that if I have to reload then the fight has gone on long enough that I expect my opponent to be behind cover. I could claim that it's because I know that if I haven't solved my problem with my first magazine I need to do something different. The truth of the matter is that it's cheaper when I rotate my carry ammo.

 

[SoCalShooter]

I have just HP in my USP...but then again I intend to unload the entire mag into a BG. Its the reason I keep it with four mags loaded

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

another idea 4 u

in a court of law you may have good grounds to work on if youre first shot was rubber ball, projectile (.12 ga) or hard rubber shot. Explain to judge/jury that you sought non-lethal escalation of force in SD. If attacker did not submit and retreat but still remained a threat the next round as slug or steel/lead shot would be more justified. Not a bad idea unless you just want to off the BG, and in some places risk losing all you have. As much as that sucks, the precursor non lethal round is good stuff.

st

 

[Manedwolf]

The only Dutch load for a shot gun that I can see is that the first one up is a slug. I might have to shoot close to a family member, after that buckshot all the way.

I'm glad I don't live next door to you! You ARE aware that a slug will typically carry on its merry way through a number of sheetrock walls, house siding, and into the house next door with well enough force to kill someone? Think of any photos you may have seen of Civil War bullets that went tearing through homes and went a number of inches into heavy oak beams. That's essentially what your slug is, when it comes to residental structures.

They'd done a test somewhere with a house-to-be-demolished they fired at. The slug went through ornamental fencing and the ENTIRE house and ended up in the backyard.

 

[Jeff White]

SamTuckerMTNMAN said;

in a court of law you may have good grounds to work on if youre first shot was rubber ball, projectile (.12 ga) or hard rubber shot. Explain to judge/jury that you sought non-lethal escalation of force in SD. If attacker did not submit and retreat but still remained a threat the next round as slug or steel/lead shot would be more justified.

With all due respect, that is the worst idea I've seen presented here in a long time. Your rubber ball projectile is not, I say again not an non lethal projectile. It falls into the category of weapons called less lethal. At typical indoor defensive ranges it is quite capable of killing, especially if you hit the intruder in the neck or head. Now you are faced with explaining to the police and states attorney that you didn't intend to kill the intruder, you just wanted to run him off. Probably guarantees at least an involuntary manslaughter charge.

A shotgun is deadly force. If you aren't justfied in taking the life of the person you aimed at, you shouldn't be aiming at him, no matter what you loaded. Less lethal munitions are for specific situations and are usually employed as a last ditch substitute for lethal force. A police department would always back up the less lethal force option with deadly force in case the less lethal failed to stop the suspect. Mixing less lethal and lethal rounds in a shotgun is a recipe for disaster. Most police departments use dedicated shotguns for less lethal munitions and paint them a bright color so that everyone knows that weapon only has less lethal ammunition.

We've discussed less lethal ammunition before. A search should bring up the threads. Less lethal ammunition just isn't a viable option for a homeowner.

Jeff

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

then less lethal

so be it, less lethal then. It is a viable option for some homeowners, depending on what they want to accomplish. Small rubber shot, bean bags, or custom shot loads can work depending on what the goal is. Not everyone wants to cut someone in two. I'm surprised a MOD would be so quick to judge harshly. Rubber is not going next door. . . and may leave options open that slugs and lead would not. That is my point, calm down killer.
st

ps - A police department would always back up the less lethal force option with deadly force in case the less lethal failed to stop the suspect.

hence the; "first shot rubber, next shot lead", concept.

 

[Jeff White]

Sam,
What personal experience have you had with less lethal ammunition? Attended any training courses, certifed to use any of it? 12 gauge less lethal rounds can be pretty unreliable as stoppers. You're left with having to work the action of your shotgun and shoot again before the intruder can close the 10-12 foot distance that we're talking about in most homes if it fails. You also have some explaining to do if you shoot the intruder in the face and he dies.

A firearm is deadly force. It shouldn't be employed against anyone, no matter what you've loaded it with unless you are legally and morally justified in taking that persons life. I think loading it with any less lethal ammunition would put you in the exact legal jeopardy you are trying to avoid.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

SamTuckerMTNMAN said: Not everyone wants to cut someone in two. I'm surprised a MOD would be so quick to judge harshly. Rubber is not going next door. . . and may leave options open that slugs and lead would not. That is my point, calm down killer.

Sam, Jeff is speaking from experience. Its not harsh or hasty judgement. He has direct knowledge on the subject, and is trying to give you insight on the fallacies of "less lethal" rounds and their manner of marketing to the public.

The mere inference that Jeff, Jeff, is a killer, and hasty to sling lead, is just really . . . well you are obviously ignorant of Mr. White, and who he is as a man.


Jeff, how long has it been since you were last called a pinko, liberal, bleeding heart wussy here? It can't be much more than a month . . . killer

 

[JMusic]

There are very few devises that can be true "non or less than lethal" tools. Look at the use of tasers. Someone gets charged up and dies over the use the outcry is why didn't they overpower and use nightsticks. Any force against another human being can be lethal. That is why you have to be sure your life is in danger before you act offensively against someone. Even the often touted OC spray has a few notches on their gun. Using force against another requires a damn good reason. There really is no such thing as a sure thing in applying force against another with 100 percent certainty that person will survive. In court you had better be able to defend your actions no matter what the turnout or you will wish you had.

I thought I'd throw this in Killer before you lock the thread.

Jim

 

[Denny Hansen]

In my opinion using loading a firearm with different types of ammuntion (Dutch loading) sounds cool but is asking for trouble.

Heard of most commonly with the shotgun, the thought process runs something like, “I’ll load birdshot (always a bad idea on anything but trap, dove and quail IMO) first so it won’t go though a wall. Buckshot is up next in case the bad guy is farther away. Slugs will be up last in case I need penetration.” Sounds good, but what if you need a slug to penetrate soft cover as the first round? Oops. Switch it up anyway you like, but Mr. Murphy will show up and prove your theoretical situation was just that—theoretical.

The shotgun seems like a simple weapon to most, but ask anyone who has taken a comprehensive course with one and they’ll tell you it is, in fact a complicated weapon platform.

How ya been, Killer?

Denny

 

[combatantr2]

Heres my take

Dutch loading leads you to complaceny. Firing and firing into one section of a BGs target section hoping your alternatings rounds of HP and FMJ and so forth would do the trick, overlooking the possibility of consuming up all your rounds into one target and perfectly forgetting of another possible threat coming your way.

Why not just - two pops below and one pop above. Granting your 1st two shots fails to disable the BG still this would render him immobile for some few seconds, not necessarily slump, but possibly standing motionless allowing you to make a 3rd clean head shot. This way you save ammo and you get to re-focus again on your surroundings and assess for another threat.

Just my 2cents.

 

[sturmruger]

In most cases FMJ ammunition will penatrate more then HP. Since it is now winter and I carry in MN I do stager the rounds in my carry gun. While it has been an extremly warm winter so far it will get cold at some point, and good guys and bad guys all bundle up to stay warm. I don't want my HP to be stopped or slowed down by bulky clothing. While people always say there is no reason to stagger ammo in mag I always say there is no reason not to. I don't stagger in the summer because I am lazy and don't want to bother.

 

[the naked prophet]

The big problem that I see with staggering FMJ with your JHP is that premium FMJ is hard to come by. Sure, most of us buy the premium Hydrashoks, Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, or Silvertips, but what FMJ can you buy that has the extra quality control, sealed primers, low flash powders, etc?

 

[kungfuhippie]

I have a star model b that will feed the bottom 5 hp rds reliably, but not a full mag. I was debating weither I should top off the mags with 3 fmj or have the mags half full. I decided that the overpenetration in a 9mm wasn't too much an issue and so I've been using fmj for my defense rounds too. I decided that 8 fmjs would beat 5 jhp any day of the week (8 smaller holes create more bleed area than 5 bigger holes)

 

[Mannlicher]

KungFu, it would be more prudent to just buy a reliable magazine, or have your Star repaired.

 

[mpmarty]

Gee whiz

Let me get this straight:

A hollow point will plug with heavy clothing and act like a ball round.
A ball round will penetrate heavy clothing but not expand like a hollow point.
So if you have all hollow points and they don't encounter heavy clothing they will expand and if they do encounter heavy clothing they will penetrate. What's the problem?

I'm quite comfortable with all my carry guns with .45 acp loads using Barnes solid copper hollow points at over 1000fps.