I don't get the alternating rounds suggestion?

[rustymaggot]

in the past ive done things like left the last two shot shells in the tube a different color, to maybe let me know when im empty. all green shells then two red. if i ever had to use that many i doubt id have time or presence of mind to be looking at the colors but eh, cant hurt. if i happen to see a red one leave the gun, i know i have one or none left and i need to reload.

i dont know if shot shell color counts as alternating ammo when its all the same load.

 

[stevelyn]

I do it with shotgun shells, but the only reason I do is that my shotgun is primarily used on dumpster-diving bears.

The chamber is loaded with #4 steel shot followed by a 00 Buck with the rest being Brenneke slugs. The idea is to pepper their arse with the #4 steel. If they run fine. Should they turn to charge, the 00 Buck is used to break the charge and the Brennekes to turn them into rugs for ADF&G to auction off at the Fur Rondy.

When bear dumpster-diving season is over, I go back to my people and dog eater mode and load with 00 Buck only as a primary load. If I need to use a slug, I'll just do a select-slug drill.

 

[kjeff50cal]

IIRC 'Dutch Loading' comes from the good old bad old days (mid 1980s BG, before Glock ) of semi-autos not being able to feed most avaliable hollowpoint loads without throating and polishing the feed-ramp (done to mostly 1911s). LEOs and CHL users put a HP "up the pipe" and the rest of the magazine FMJ for reliability.

 

[DMK]

I can see alternating JHP and FMJ in a pistol for CCW, especially a marginally powered one like .380 for instance. You don't know if the perp will be wearing heavy clothing or not, especially now that it is winter. HPs might not make it through very heavy clothing with enough energy to reach anything vital where FMJ just might. On the other hand you don't want all the shots to be ice pic holes if you're carrying a smaller caliber either and if penetrating heavy clothing is not an issue then you definitely want some expansion as well. In a way when you think about it NOT alternating rounds that will solve different situations means you have chosen a situation and are gambling that that is what will happen.

An interesting way to look at it, but what you're really saying is you don't have confidence in the round. In my opinion, you'd just be better off carrying a more powerful caliber and loading the entire mag with HPs that have a good record for adequate penetration.

Me, I've never had to shoot under the stress of life or death. I'm not prepared to hedge my bets on getting more than one hit and which round in the mag that will be.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I can see having slugs in the sidesaddle shellholder of your shotgun, ready to load if you should need them, while having the magazine full of buckshot.

If I was in a firefight, I would not be able to remember what round would be chambered next if I did an alternating slug/buckshot loading pattern.

As for pistols, about the only thing I would consider is to have my S&W J-frame loaded with 4 rounds of .38SPL and having the 5th round being a .357MAG - sorta like having a Hail-Mary round if the first 4 didn't work.

 

[SuperNaut]

I've thought about having a second magazine full of FMJ to switch to for penetration purposes. However, since an unforced tactical reload is not a good idea during a fire-fight I can see the value of being one shot away from an FMJ at all times. I'm not sure if I'll ever go so far as to actually load in this fashion, but I can understand the reasoning.

 

[HiWayMan]

I'll Dutch my revolver when in the woods or going somewhere where there are snakes. I hate snakes. One shot load and the rest are full wadcutters. Never for CCW though.

 

[Gewehr98]

I see valid arguments both for and against the practice.

Every 5th round in my HD AR-15 and Kalashnikov are red tracers.

The round in the pipe of my HD 870Mk1 is a Brenneke slug. The rest are Vietnam era full-brass Rem-UMC 2 3/4" 00 Buck. I've been the unintentional host to two home invasion robberies in my previous locations, and the invaders in that neck of the woods were known to bundle up and even mimic SWAT tactics. The slug seemed like good insurance, be it heavy winter clothing or even against a kevlar vest. If it didn't penetrate, it would at least break bones and cause some serious trauma.

Not that I'm a Facklerite or Taylorite, but I've seen pictures and data that illustrate some brand-name hollowpoints in calibers like 9mm, .357, and .45 ACP simply clog up with clothing and perform like FMJ. I'd wager that not a lot of folks are getting attacked by naked bad guys...

 

[Correia]

In a shotgun, it is pretty much useless.

However if you're just out having fun, there is nothing better than ripping off a 8 round Saiga 12 magazine with alternating magnum buck and 3" slugs. Totally impractical, but a neat way to unload a bunch of destruction on some helpless cardboard or old fruit. My record is 1.7 seconds kept on one 25 meter target, but man was I sore.

 

[Geronimo45]

"what you're really saying is you don't have confidence in the round" - not much confidence to be had for anything coming out of a pistol barrel.

 

[Jeff White]

Gewehr98 said;

Every 5th round in my HD AR-15 and Kalashnikov are red tracers.

So you can direct the fire of the rest of the family members on target?

Jeff

 

[Hardware]

Tracers might just give the bad guys a severe *** moment. Of course then you might want to load all tracers and really scare the pee-waddlin' out of 'em. I seem to recall stories about the 13th demi-brigade in French Indo-China using a similar tactic with a bamboo wrapped 30 cal browning on night ambushes. Or maybe this is just too tacticool for HD scenarios.

Alternating rounds mght not be a good idea. Then again your home might be invaded by a 8 foot tall carrot. But I bet either slug or shot will do the job on the average home intruder. There's no guaranteed boogieman stopper except the supersonic telephone pole launcher. Ante up and take your chances.

Now let's discuss the sub-atomic weasel launcher vs. the sub-atomic ferret launcher.

 

[usmcdoc14]

I love some of the statements in this thread LOL.

Pick a round and stick to it, end of story. Find a round that chambers well everytime and performs the way you need.

oh and I looooooove statements like this (nothing personal)

especially a marginally powered one like .380 for instance

Have any of you taken a .380 to the chest? Would anyone here like to give that a whack? let us know if it would stop you.

The pistol by the bed is to get to the shotgun under the bed to get to the rifle down the hall

 

[Zoogster]

The purpose is to give both penetration as well as the added benefit of expanding rounds without suffering the limitations of either.

Hollowpoints are the most easily stopped or rendered less dangerous by cover or body armor, but they do the most damage against flesh. FMJ or AP rounds have the downside of less stopping power against flesh(as well as overpenetration) but perform without losing the velocity and stopping power against barriers and low level body armor seen with softer or expanding ammo.
The Russians have the best solution with ammo with a penetrator as well as great expansion, but such is illegal in this country for handguns.

An additional down side to this is that shots are going to have a different feel to them and be less consistent, meaning followups are going to be less fluid.

However in things like a shotgun it can make even more sense in situations where the high accurate stopping power of a slug is necessary or prefered, but the hit probability of buckshot is desired if the slug is too difficult to put on target(like bear defense with bear knocking you around). The reverse if the high hit probability of buckshot and its effects are desired, but the penetration and accuracy of a slug is desired at some point. In reality if there is a prolonged gunfight it is because people are behind cover and penetration would be desired.


No it might not be for everyone or most situations, but it has its purposes. I think for animal predator defense the slug followed by buckshot approach makes a lot of sense. High stopping power if you can aim well and be accurate (which requires a second of preperation), high deterance if for some reason you cannot or the bear is up close knocking you around and spraying him with higher hit probability buckshot is easier.

Some are good for body armored thugs, others optimized for less sophisticated criminals. Maybe some fear both?
In many parts of the world as well as in the USA the use of body armor is increasing by all. Whether they are good or bad. The higher prevalence of it means more are going to be using it. If in a bullet exchange they can take the initial rounds you dish out, but thiers have an immediate effect on you, then you have lost the fight for yourself or your family. Headshots while taking fire (and being hit) are not as easy as everyone wants to believe.

 

[phonesysphonesys]

Many years ago I use to carry three hollow points then three solids in my
357's. The reason being that the hollow points were for up close. The solids were in case they took cover or the hollow points didn't work. That was the theory. It was dropped because it was not pracitical. Now I just carry good hollow points in my autos.

Semper Fi

 

[orionengnr]

Hollowpoints are the most easily stopped or rendered less dangerous by cover or body armor, but they do the most damage against flesh. FMJ or AP rounds have the downside of less stopping power against flesh(as well as overpenetration) but perform without losing the velocity and stopping power against barriers and low level body armor seen with softer or expanding ammo.

Do tell.

I have never heard of any handgun ammo performing reliably against body armor (Internet Myth FN 5.7s excluded )

 

[Zoogster]

Do tell.

I have never heard of any handgun ammo performing reliably against body armor (Internet Myth FN 5.7s excluded )

Reliable against armor is very vague. There is multiple levels of body armor. The type a criminal is likely to wear, or an officer for extended periods of time is different than the type people put on for short durations in high threat situations. There is a great number of handgun rounds that penetrate lower level body armor and then proceed to give no expansion whatsoever. They are all illegal in the USA because the law forbids ammo not containing a very high % of lead and excluding more than a trace level of most other metals. Lead is soft, you can shape or bend it with your nail. Therefore when it impacts with body armor the round deforms losing penetration in the fibers of the body armor. Tungsten, depleted uranium etc as well as many alloys as well as traditional metals that have less desirable mass than lead all penetrate better because they hold a point while exerting their force on the armor.
There is some Russian rounds that are designed with a solid metal rod designed for penetration (not to use less lead like similar rounds of the past) that are also designed with soft metal and pockets to catch and expand with flesh like hollowpoints.

A round designed like a flower similar to hydroshocks but with a solid dense rod through the center, and soft metal petals around the rod with an opening like a hollowpoint around the rod and between the petals allow for both a round with good expansion and for penetration by the rod when the target is too solid for softer petals to penetrate. Of course the damage done by this rod is limited to is dimensions. Pistol rounds depend on the holes they make as they generaly do not have the velocity for any significant hydrostatic damage. So the ideal design is a medium sized pointed rod with thin lead petals and the rod balanced off center so when stripped of lead it tumbles after a few inches creating a wider wound channel. This requires higher than normal velocity ammunition to be effective.
A round such as this gives both penetration against hard targets and armor that can be penetrated by the weight and velocity limitations of the handgun round, as well as expansion against soft targets for increased performance.

 

[brolin_1911a1]

Many years ago I when I drove a truck I used to carry my Security-Six loaded with two rounds of home-made flechettes (17 one-inch pieces of 1/16" brazing rod in a Speer shot capsule), two rounds of Remington 125gr HP, and two rounds of Federal 158gr. softpoint. My reasoning was that I was most likely to need it while being awakened from a sound sleep by someone who'd broke into the truck and was attempting to beat me to death in the sleeper. I figured the first two rounds would give greater hit probability with greater chance of halting the hostile action and minimal chance of penetrating neighboring trucks. The next two rounds were for aimed fire after the first two had, hopefully, caused the attacker to pause a bit. The last two were in case said attacker was wearing heavy, bullet-resistant clothing that caused the lighter hollow points to fail.

 

[usmcdoc14]

Do tell.

I have never heard of any handgun ammo performing reliably against body armor (Internet Myth FN 5.7s excluded )

feh, no big deal. if you get yourself a "high tech" home intruder pimping the latest class XXXXXIVVVV body armor, you put a round into their head or hip (nice non-body armor area that does a lot of damage) and get your rifle while they are dealing with the suck of a JHP to the face.

There is a great number of handgun rounds that penetrate lower level body armor and then proceed to give no expansion whatsoever. They are all illegal in the USA because the law forbids ammo not containing a very high % of lead and excluding more than a trace level of most other metals.

could you find me that law please, thanks.

oh and anyone using a pistol or even thinking about using a pistol on an armored target or having some weird fantasy about a home attacker with body armor and what you would do with JUST your pistol needs to be slapped.
Pistol vs body armor is a moot point and is distracting from the point of this topic..or what is left of it.

 

[Zoogster]

could you find me that law please, thanks.

I am sure you can find it, it is a federal law. With the exception of copper(and even it is limited to a certain %) most metals other than lead are banned in more than trace amounts in handgun ammunition.

oh and anyone using a pistol or even thinking about using a pistol on an armored target or having some weird fantasy about a home attacker with body armor and what you would do with JUST your pistol needs to be slapped.

I agree a handgun is definately not the ideal weapon for any type of body armor. It is also the most widely used due to ease of concealment by criminals which is why anything that is designed to defeat body armor in a handgun is against the law.

 

[usmcdoc14]

I am sure you can find it, it is a federal law. With the exception of copper(and even it is limited to a certain %) most metals other than lead are banned in more than trace amounts in handgun ammunition.

I am pretty sure YOU can find it seeing as you mentioned it as fact and not in passing.

I am going to waste maybe 10min google searching for it and then I am calling BS (and no I do not mean AP pistol rounds)

 

[Zoogster]

and no I do not mean AP pistol rounds

How do you think they define AP pistol rounds in fine print?

 

[Zoogster]

A 1986 law makes it unlawful to manufacture, import, sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition. This law has an exemption for law enforcement. This legislation also excludes ammunition designed for sporting rifles.

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 creates a new definition of "armor piercing ammunition" aimed at eliminating new types of bullets. Now handgun ammunition made of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper or depleted uranium or handgun ammunition larger than .22 caliber where the jacket weighs more than 25% of the bullet is banned.

Shotguns also are exempt through decisions to allow for sporting slug ammo such as remington copper solids designed entirely from banned materials.

 

[usmcdoc14]

dude, if you are going to find a law, find ALL of the law. not just parts or some random not quite right internet posting.
The law is:

18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

there are soo many loopholes in this law I do not know where to begin.
but you note the difference between the "actual" law and what you posted?

 

[orionengnr]

Zoogster:

There is a great number of handgun rounds that penetrate lower level body armor and then proceed to give no expansion whatsoever. They are all illegal in the USA because the law forbids ammo not containing a very high % of lead and ...[/QUOTE]

BWA...HAHAHAHA...HAAAA

I guess I better turn in my CorBon DPX rounds, because they do not contain "a very high % of lead"...

Hmmm...100% copper would equal...wait, let me grab my calculator...ah, that would be...um, carry the zero...oh crap!!! zero per cent lead.

Please give me the 1-800 number and I'll turn myself in.

If I don't die of convulsive laughter first...

Cough...choke...gasp...