I dont know where to start?

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A lot of folks on this forum started with a cap-n-ball revolver. So many folks like the cap-n-ball revolvers in fact, that those are the only black powder guns that they own and I think cap-n-ball ought to be its own sub-category on the menu of the site. Anyway, a good, steel framed, Remington model 1858 revolver in .44 is a very good choice for the beginner.
Click to expand...

I agree with Loyalist Dave on two points!
1) The Rem 1858 is good place to begin in BP and
2) Cap and ball should have its own Sub-category! :)

This in MO is the funnest entry tool into Black Powder Firearms!
My kids loved it as they were growing up, and it can be your only interest or it will start a habit...I hunt with all kinds of BP rifles in different calibers and those kits are nice too! Am looking at BP Shotgun now....Double Barrel 12 Ga.

I also would even suggest to the somewhat mechanically inclined to even get a kit and build it!.....It will be personal gratification when you fire the first round through it! :D

Example: Dixie Gun Works Remington 1858 Kit RK0834 $175.00 ;)
 

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Mykeal,

The last time I ordered powder and caps from Cabellas, which was just last month, I ordered three pounds of black powder substitute that they had a sale on, and a 10 pack of Remington #10 caps. I was only charged one Hazmat fee for the entire order, they did not charge a seperate Hazmat fee for the caps and the powder.

As far as, "Getting around federal regulations regarding the shipment of explosives" is concerned. My advice is DON'T GO THERE. Play by the rules, pay the fees, beleive me these ATF guys have even less of a sense of humor than the IRS Auditors do !!! You really, really, really, DON'T want to lock horns with these guys, they play MEAN !!! Currently, you may ship, in one shipment as much as 50 lbs of Black Powder in one shipment at a time. However, there is no specified limit on how many shipments you may have comming in at any one point in time. The problem with having bulk quantites of Black Powder in your personal possession does not stem from the shipping regulations, it comes into play with storage. The ATF wants your powder stored safely, in safe explosion resistant powder storage chests, vaults, or for very large quantities bunkers. As you may surmise, most communities have regulations and limits on how much of these kinds of things may be stored in residential or combined residential/business zoned areas. In most communities, very large quantites of Black Powder, or similar explosives, cannot be stored in a residentially zoned or combined comercial/residentally zoned property. Large quantites of such items would need to be stored in some sort of submerged bunker, far, far away from neighbors and buildings, which means, a pretty big piece of land, way far out away from the city limits. Obviously, the cost of such a storage bunker would be prohibitive for a private hobyist, but not for a business, which would classify that expense as a necessary business expense.

The only legal way I know of, to "get around" these kinds of regulations regarding the shipment and storage of explosives, is, not to ship or store explosives, as such. If you buy Black Powder kits, in which, the components of the black powder are shipped out to you, not mixed, none of those components are classed as explosives by themselves. Shipping and storage of saltpeter, sulphur, charcoal, gum arabic, graphite powder, and such, unmixed, are not treated as explosives in their unmixed form.

A major pyrotechnical chemicals and kit supplier, starlight.com, does this with their flash powders, shipping them as component kits, and not mixed.

http://www.starlight.com/pyro.html

Just an FYI

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
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AFAIK vendors will ship sub. powders along with percussion caps for one hazmat fee but they will not combine black powder with percussion caps.
 
fake fees are just that , I dont have business in firearms I own rental properties , in my business the fake fees are by the cities and counties , yes I call them fake because its just a way the atf grabs "free" money for doing nothing !
 
You are correct; I should have included the word 'black'.

I have no intention of avoiding any Federal, state or local laws or regulations. My statement was a challenge to the poster to justify the use of 'fake' in describing hazmat fees. Cabela's doesn't set those fees and is required to show that they have been paid. They don't deserve such criticism. I note he has failed to answer.
 
look above your post , I did answer , unless you consider those legitimate fees , just what does the atf do to garner those fees? Please enlighten me?
 
Hazmat fees are not imposed by BATF. They are determined, charged and collected by the common carriers to defray the additional costs of complying with DOT (not BATF) regulations for shipping hazardous and dangerous materials using the public infrastructure. Note that neither BATF nor DOT play any part in determining hazmat fees nor do they receive any of the money.

Be aware the amount you pay a retailer for a hazmat fee may or may not be the fee charged by the shipper. Those fees are like any other cost of business, they're in effect negotiated between the shipper and the carrier. Some large shippers may elect to cover the complete fee for large orders and good customers, and some smaller shippers may be forced to pass along the entire fee to their customers if their margins are small.

What do the fees actually cover? Consider this: The DOT or international agencies such as the International Air Transport Association (IATA) regulate when a commercial common carrier transports hazardous materials. The shipper must properly classify, package, document, and handle the hazardous materials to comply with shipping regulations. The regulations often dictate how a certain material is handled and packaged, and frequently require specific transportation options (like certain highways, no airline flights, etc.). The penalty for noncompliance is a sliding scale, small fines for minor paperwork issues to huge fines and even loss of the ability to carry goods in interstate, intrastate and international commerce.

Hazmat fees are by no means 'fake'. Like any business cost, they may or may not be an accurate reimbursement for the real expenses they're supposed to cover - that depends on how efficient a carrier is at complying with the regulations. But they are a real cost of doing business just like insurance, taxes, rent, electricity, salaries, pensions, etc.

Do a search on 'hazardous materials shipping fees' and enlighten yourself.
 
no need to , get back on topic , I dont need to get in a discussion on politics with you on here , Ive already been reprimanded for my political views (you'll be reprimanded for this as well) , with that said believe what you want ! Not to mention that you dont say WHO gets the fee's ? If atf or dot dont who does? another govt agency?

Now for everyone else , stainless I suppose is the best bet for cap & ball ,probably holds up better , I dont care whether its pretty , but i seen this one http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=132907
Gets great reviews , so is this a good purchase ?
 
Let me help:
determined, charged and collected by the common carriers
Click to expand...
means the common carriers get the fees.

You're the guy who asked to be enlightened. I apologize for believing you; my mistake.
 
usmc-1, Thats a good price for a Brass frame. As a starter it might not be bad as a plinker but threads on this sight repeatedly remind us that the Brass frames will become deformed if heavier loads are shot out of them, keep that in mind when concidering the type of shooting you will be doing.
When I purchased my first BP pistol I went to Cabelas as they had the largest sellection locally and they were happy to let me handle the different ones I was interested in. I ended up with a '58 steel frame, 51/2 inch barrel, the ballance was the selling point for me. I had to handle it to find that out. Once you know what you want another option would bee sights like Gunbroker.com. Look for sellers with lots of possitive feedback, or that have an inspection period. I've only been shooting BP for about a year but it's become a fun hobby.

Good Shooting, G D
 
The government makes it's piece by selling licenses to manufacture and transport explosive materials, and by prosecuting and fining noncompliance. And believe me, there are enough people who try to get around the regulations to make that plenty lucrative.
 
Check out graf and sons. They will ship subs and caps together
for one hazmat, and have really good prices.

I don't recall if they will ship black and caps together for one fee.
I just ordered a case of cci 11 caps and three lbs of triple 7 3f,
and paid one hazmat on it.

If you have a c&r, you can also check to see if they will extend
dealer pricing to you.
 
arcticap said:
AFAIK vendors will ship sub. powders along with percussion caps for one hazmat fee but they will not combine black powder with percussion caps.
Click to expand...
Maybe all except for Bass Pro Shops! If you buy, say, 10 tins of percussion, Bass Pro will charge you 10 Haz-Mat fees. And some marketing weenie is probably wondering why they don't sell many tins of caps!
 
Many recommend Cabela's Pietta's because of their no questions asked return policy and cheaper sale prices for guns that many feel are comparable to Uberti's and represent the best bang for the buck.
But some folks also believe that Uberti's are better in some ways by having a few more features for comparatively more money.
Because the similar quality of each product most folks feel comfortable recommending and buying the less expensive one.
Plus Pietta probably makes and sells about 10 times more guns per year than Uberti does which helps to keep their prices low and customer satisfaction relatively high.
 
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Call me weird... but...

There is just something bothersome about an Itallian Gun maker, building reproduction guns of American Guns, American Designs, back to the same decendants of the very people who invented the damned things to begin with...

It just bothers me...

Just me I guess...

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka.. David... "EW"
 
I know !!!

I will custom order a bunch of really crappy barrels from some garage sweat shop out of New Delhi India...

I will custom order the imitation brass frames from a Spanish outfit that casts fake brass from colored white metal used to make toy cap guns...

I will custom order, from Brazil, the cheapest, crappiest cylinders and other parts American Money can buy.

I will rent a garage outside of Mexico City, and have all those parts sent there, where I will pay starving homeless children 35 cents an hour to assemble the "Fine Reproduction Guns" from the parts.

I will spend, a total of $12.75 to make the guns, and sell them to Americans for $525.00 Each...

I will take dried llama droppings and mix them with oil soaked Mexican Mud, from the oil soaked beaches of the Mexican Coastline, and package the sludge in dried pellets, marketed as "Marco Polo Black Powder Pellets"...Any excess sludge will be dried into 2" bricks and sell them to Home Depot as self starting "Gourmet" Mesquite Charcoal Briquettes !!! ($25.65/10 lb bag)

I will call the gun company... the... "Yura Moron Gun Company"

Or... Perhaps

The "F.U. Pooperti Company"

I will laugh all the way to the bank making my deposits into my Cayman Island Bank, with the back of my Mercedes Benz Panel truck stuffed floor to ceiling with stacks and stacks of crisp, new, American money, fresh off of my HP Laser Jet Printer Money Press, and made from re-cycled Mexican News Print, which, by the way, is a better quality of paper than what the U.S. government pays their Phillipino peasant workers to make U.S. Money with.

LOL !!!

Sincerely

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
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hey guys, i learned alot from reading this thread. i'm on the verge of ordering the Pietta Model 1851 Confederate Navy .44 Caliber Revolver and the Pedersoli Colt Pattern Powder Flask from cabelas.

quick question, how do i know which size .44 ball to buy? cabelas list 3 different 44s: .451, .454, and .457
 
In general one doesn't know which size is best until you have the gun and can measure the bore and chambers. There is inconsistency even within a given manufacturer's line. However, starting out with .454 is a good compromise when you don't have the dimensions. Look for the ball to shave a thin ring off when it's swaged into the chamber by the plunger. If no ring, or an incomplete ring, go to a larger ball. If the ball is difficult to load, requiring a lot of force, and the ring is thick (say, over .002" thick), or if you don't get a ring shaved off but rather the ball just forms a little collar that stays attached to the ball, go to a smaller ball.

If you're stuck with a hundred undersized balls, they can still be used safely but you need to include either a lubed felt wad between the powder and ball or chamber mouth grease; I prefer the former.
 
Racky,

The basic rule of thumb is, the .457 is generally used for Ruger Old Army (ROA), the .454 for the Remington New Army (RNA), and the .451 for everyone else including Colts and Walkers.

However, this is not cast in concrete. Just keep in mind that revolver round balls and conicals need to be a tad oversized, so that when you seat the projectile down into the cylinder chamber, you shave off a thin edge of lead, insuring a good tight fit. Single shot patched projectiles, except for Minnie Balls and Sabots, need to be a tad undersized, say, .490 or .495 for a 50 Cal barrel, allowing for some space for the patch to fill in.

It's mostly just common sense, we aren't rocket scientists, just a bunch of old boys who still like to play cowboys and indians with their buddies, except today, our toys are alot more expensive than they were when we were 8 or 10, and our friends, alot bigger than they used to be... LOL

And remember, if you do get stuck with a bunch of lead the wrong size, just pick up a cast iron pot, and a mold from Cabela's for $19.97 , melt the lead, and cast some new ones of a better size.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
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