I found a wondrous place!

[Mac's Precision]

Yep...you are right...you can read regs just as well as I can.

You too can call any field office and chat with them all you like.

As for my projecting mis-information on any forum list, I have not. I do have an advantage over you in that I have an FFL and done the application process. I didn't simply read the regs and then I assume I know how it goes. I actually did it...and I know how it goes. This may come as a surprise to you but the actual process is NOT all clearly outlined in the regs. The regs you are reading are Federal and do not address State and county level issues. I assure you there is FAR more involved than you can imagine.

Through this entire silly discussion I have accurately explained what happens and why. I have nothing to gain what so ever by painting a different picture than what is reality. Do I care if this guy is a former FFL holder? NO. Could he still have an FFL? Yes...if he keeps it current and does some gun transactions. The question I addressed was IF he needs an FFL....and if he intends to make a profit...he does.

Do I stand to gain something from any of the members on this list. No..nor do I care. I am not here looking for business. I am already up to my armpits in work as it is. Making it look like you folks NEED to have your work done by an FFL is not the case. IN my first reply post I pointed out that if a guy is operating a hobby....he could!



Just so Navy LT and every one on this list is crystal clear..... I personally will abide by all ATF regs. I am in business, I will not interact with guys that expect shade tree deals or tax evading discounts. I don't work for "cash under the table" I do nothing but quality work and will never make repairs that aren't safe or industry standard. I don't take beer, cigarettes...or work in any wink wink ...nudge nudge....good ol' boy agreements. I don't hope to gain any work from any online forums nor do I expect it. If someone here seeks me out...or I can be of help to them, fine. I will help them out...but they will pay standard pricing like anyone else.

I don't discourage hobby gunsmithing. In fact I encourage it. It normally helps my business. I do discourage guys projecting that they are professionals when they are not. Shade tree guys passing out business cards and taking on work as if they are professionals should be dealt with. They have no business misrepresenting themselves. The fact that a guy "works on Guns" doesn't make him a professional gunsmith. As such he has no business advertising if he is NOT in business and a professional. I personally think that an unlicensed, uninsured hobbiest that is willing to do work for a walk in customer is a fool.

I don't spend my time trying to brew up misinformation to play with your minds. I don't have the time for it. If there are FFL holders on lists that are manipulating information to further their businesses then shame on them. I personally have never done such a thing and I resent your implications.

I don't know you and you don't know me. Grouping me with guys that are known to project misinformation is intentionally misleading your your part. Until you have proof of any different I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do things to make it look as if I have ill intentions. If you have a bone to pick with me regarding anything I said....I would encourage you to go to my web site and get my number and call. I don't have a horse in this race and I honestly don't give 2 ounces of crap. I answered a question factually. Your interpretation of what the law says is irrelevant. Unless you are an FFL AND you deal with these regs on a regular basis AND you have dealt with the agents on a regular basis....your interpretation of what happens is invalid.


Cheers
Mac.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I am more interested in the details of the sight pusher, I could use a good heavy duty all round sight pusher.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=16955/sku/Type_II_Universal_Sight_Tool



Just don't accept $10 from anybody if you use it on their gun and don't keep their gun overnight. Apparently some people think you need an FFL to do that. And don't take a beer in payment from someone who doesn't have an alcohol distributor's license either....

 

[bigfatdave]

OK, I was with you up to here:

I personally think that an unlicensed, uninsured hobbiest that is willing to do work for a walk in customer is a fool.

So you think that the ATF issuing a FFL adds some actual tangible value, or is simply a requirement put forth by bureaucrats?

 

[rbernie]

Easy, gang - let's not get all snarky (or write things that can be construed as snark).

 

[Mac's Precision]

GNLaFrance: "Every male in my immediate family has served in the US Navy and we are all proud of it. Many fine people can say the same."


Thank YOU for making my point! Just as your family are all Navy supporters...as is mine. There are many good folks in the Navy.....just as there are many good folks that are honest upstanding businessmen who are legitimate FFL holders. The point I was making is that for every group of good folks there is 1% that starts a reputation we all have the task of dealing with. As such I don't suppose you appreciate it when you are grouped in with those that cast negative impressions on the group as a whole. I don't either.

I strive every day to maintain a reputation of honest upstanding professionalism. I don't care to be swept in with the group of dishonest misleading individuals. When it happens I am the first to defend those of us that operate in a proper and legitimate manner. Suggestions of deception or operating in the grey area for personal gain by a FFL holder angers me and I make no suggestions that I condone it.

We talk about taking "the high road" and as such I expect any FFL holder to to be honest and upstanding in the industry. I submit that a person SHOULD be confident that since the business man IS an FFL holder that they should be operating in an honest, legal by the book manner. It should suggest that you can automatically trust that they are legitimate and above questionable deals. They should be offering proper conduct at fair prices. They should be keeping proper records and paying taxes. Everything legal and above board. No questions.

Unfortunately there are a percentage of FFL holders that are not professional business men or SKILLED gunsmiths. Oddly they project that somehow they should be regarded as such simply because they have an FFL. Similarly a self appointed job title of GUNSMITH and hanging a shingle doesn't make him / her a skilled upstanding reputable business person. It is always buyer beware in this world but unfortunately the possession of of an FFL is simply a piece of red tape put in place by our government and is NOT an assurance of skill or professionalism. The ATF does not care to validate skill set as it would be a government endorsement of a man's ability to produce quality.

Regarding bigfaddave's question: the emphasis in my comment should have been on INSURED. Licensed or not a man would be asking for trouble making repairs without proper insurance. Should something go wrong and someone ends up getting hurt, it will help his case significantly if he is properly licensed and INSURED. I would hate to see a nice fellow with a gunsmithing hobby get raped in court and sued blind because he tried to be nice and do a favor for a guy and it goes wrong.

That is not to say that I as an FFL holder am exempt from having something go wrong or my work leading to someone getting hurt because I am not. But being properly licensed and insured certainly helps me should something bad happen. Guns are machinery and machinery can be unpredictable despite the gunsmith's best intentions to make industry standard repairs using the best techniques and materials.

Betting your home and savings that a simple repair MIGHT not go wrong seems foolish. IN an age where you can be sued for coffee being too hot it seems financially foolish doing repairs on a man's gun without proper protection. One has to be confident in his repair processes and further must TEST his repair before the customer has to depend on it. Insurance companies that cover gunsmiths are pros in that arena. They are the filter that keeps the hacks from getting insured. I personally, was heavily questioned by my insurance company. They demanded verification of my skill set as well as my methods and materials used. They very much want to know who they are backing and what kind of risk they are accepting. Simply ordering and selling guns is less of a liability risk than doing firearm repairs. I assure you that the insurance company WILL be very concerned with the little matter of IF you will be doing repairs, or modifications.

Keep in mind...they won't insure you until you have an FFL and are properly zoned and licensed. It is all a puzzle of pieces on the road to being a professional. It isn't an easy task nor one to be taken lightly. As such I defend those that have paid the price and are committed to their businesses. Simply having an 01FFL to deal is a MUCH easier effort than getting an 07FFL for manufacturing such as I have. The need to validate skill is much more of a matter to the insurance company and the ATF.

Cheers
Mac.

 

[bigfatdave]

the emphasis in my comment should have been on INSURED

Fair enough.

Unfortunately there are a percentage of FFL holders that are not professional business men or SKILLED gunsmiths. Oddly they project that somehow they should be regarded as such simply because they have an FFL. Similarly a self appointed job title of GUNSMITH and hanging a shingle doesn't make him / her a skilled upstanding reputable business person. It is always buyer beware in this world but unfortunately the possession of of an FFL is simply a piece of red tape put in place by our government and is NOT an assurance of skill or professionalism. The ATF does not care to validate skill set as it would be a government endorsement of a man's ability to produce quality.

And that's the point I was going to make, you seem to have covered the bases I was wondering if I would have to.

 

[SSN Vet]

I reload and am a basement gun tinkerer (mount scopes, change sights, fit stocks, basic trigger work, even setting up a CNC mini-mill for engraving fun).

I've been interested in making a little supplimental income from these activities and looked into getting licensed several times, have the applications on my shelf and have consulted several FFL holders on the process.

Each time I've concluded that the costs (registration, inspection, premises opened up to public, potiential liability, insurance, inviting the town to come snoop around (they want to raise my property taxes if kiddies build a treehouse ), etc...) FAR outweigh the gains for me.

Will I help a buddy out? Sure!

The key word is "help"

I will NEVER cross the line and accept payment of any type. No way, No how!

Wisdom does whisper in my ear from time to time and despite what my wife thinks... I'm not as dumb as I look.

Thinking that I was doing the retired machinist / gunsmith who does my FFL transactions for me a favor, I've refered a couple guys to him, and was surprised to learn that "he's getting out of it and not renewing his license". Fortunately, he's still in business whenever I call him up.