Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
I advocate destroying the cameras as they do in the UK.
I got a red-light ticket from a camera. BS flag!
- Thread starter FTF
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I guess there are just different kinds of people. Some try to get out of every ticket the get, like the "if the officer doesn't show up, you get off" plan. As for me, if I know I really broke the law, I'm not gonna contest it even if I know I can get away with it.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
There are some cities in Europe that are doing away with traffic signs. Forces people to be civil with each other.
**I started reading the thread, but it quickly collapsed into a buch of accusations and, while not quite name calling, non-progressive bickering. So I'll just ignore that, and thow my opinion in, with regard to the real topic at hand.**
Regardless of whether you did or did not run the light, I object to the use of the photograph as evidence for the fact that it was an unconstitutional search.
There is a reason why we cannot booby trap a door with a shotgun; you must be in fear for you life to react with deadly force. Since booby traps act on their own, without input from the victim/user they may be banned.
In a very similar way, I believe cameras must be physically controlled/monitored by an officer. This, I feel is because of our recognised, pre-existing right to privacy, and I do not feel this right ends at our property line. Rather I feel "public" is an area where all specifically have a right to walk, talk, see, etc. and in public, our several right to do so supersceedes our right to privacy(and we acknowledge this going into public). An unmanned videocamera has no right to look around which could supersceede our right to privacy.
Thus I feel, that unmanned survallence infringes on the peoples right to be secure in their persons.
Regardless of whether you did or did not run the light, I object to the use of the photograph as evidence for the fact that it was an unconstitutional search.
There is a reason why we cannot booby trap a door with a shotgun; you must be in fear for you life to react with deadly force. Since booby traps act on their own, without input from the victim/user they may be banned.
In a very similar way, I believe cameras must be physically controlled/monitored by an officer. This, I feel is because of our recognised, pre-existing right to privacy, and I do not feel this right ends at our property line. Rather I feel "public" is an area where all specifically have a right to walk, talk, see, etc. and in public, our several right to do so supersceedes our right to privacy(and we acknowledge this going into public). An unmanned videocamera has no right to look around which could supersceede our right to privacy.
Thus I feel, that unmanned survallence infringes on the peoples right to be secure in their persons.
You still haven't answered my question. Did you run the red light?
You only said "Based on what they sent me in the mail, yes."
Well DID YOU?
If you did, stop complaining, stop whining about how you got caught and be a man. It's called honor. Pay the ticket you deserve. Your indignation at the method of getting caught does not have anything to do with the actual laws you broke
You only said "Based on what they sent me in the mail, yes."
Well DID YOU?
If you did, stop complaining, stop whining about how you got caught and be a man. It's called honor. Pay the ticket you deserve. Your indignation at the method of getting caught does not have anything to do with the actual laws you broke
Honestly... I have no idea. The ticket was from 3 weeks ago. Can I recall exactly the circumstances at that date and time.. honestly... NO. It WAS three weeks ago. I do not remember or recall every light I passed given the 300 miles per week I drive. I do not see how you can expect me to do so.
Am I whining? I disagree with this practice. If disagreeing is whining then, yes, I am whining. A real man stands up for what he believes in... despite what people on the internet say. In the end, I answer to myself, I feel my anger is justified and legitimate. I disagree with this practice of red light camera law enforcement. I will continue to say so despite all the people telling me I'm wrong. Thank god for democracy.
FTF
You might want to check out this web site:
http://www.motorists.com/
There might be something there to help you.
It has been shown that most redlight camera ticket can be avoided if the authority would properly time the lights.
Good luck at fighting the unvoted tax.
You might want to check out this web site:
http://www.motorists.com/
There might be something there to help you.
It has been shown that most redlight camera ticket can be avoided if the authority would properly time the lights.
Good luck at fighting the unvoted tax.
So you don't remember. If only there was some camera on the scene to take pictures and to determine what happened....
So the next question is, do you honestly believe that they doctored the images to make it look like you ran the light when you didn't?
So the next question is, do you honestly believe that they doctored the images to make it look like you ran the light when you didn't?
So the next question is, do you honestly believe that they doctored the images to make it look like you ran the light when you didn't?
Like I said before, there may be a good battle here to fight, but it doesn't sound like you are the one who should be fighting it. Like someone else said, in order to claim the moral high ground, you actually have to have it. It sounds to me like you really did break the law, you know you broke the law, and you're just trying to use supposed morals to get out of paying.
Like I said before, there may be a good battle here to fight, but it doesn't sound like you are the one who should be fighting it. Like someone else said, in order to claim the moral high ground, you actually have to have it. It sounds to me like you really did break the law, you know you broke the law, and you're just trying to use supposed morals to get out of paying.
I dunno.. I've said it time and time again in these posts that I expect to pay.
Who are you to determine whether or not I am a good poster child to win this battle or not? Do I have to be an old lady or something? Do I have to have an absolutely spotless record to guarantee a win? What you should be saying is "FTF, your methods are all wrong... do this and this to help us all"... not "FTF, you suck, you have no chance, let me tear you apart for even trying to buck the system".
Again... I don't care. Why would I? Yeah, I'm mad as hell. I think this is wrong. I totally disagree with the whole premise and the execution.
You know what? I'm going to get mad as hell. I'm going to spend probably a few hours doing these "stupid" FOI requests. I'm going to try to find out why these cameras are not good for me. Will I win. No. Will anyone care. No. Hell, at least I'm trying to be proactive. I'll probably waste 10 hours of my time and 100 bucks of my money doing these FOI requests just to get a simple justification in writing as to why I ran this red light even though I probably did it... but you know what... I'm not going to be a pushover... isn't that the whole spirit of this board? Regardless, I don't care... don't make it a bigger deal that it is... are traffic cameras right or wrong? I think they are wrong. I'm going to use my rights to tell the judge I think just that.
I'm not defending myself here. I was asking for opinions. Guess that the consensus is that the cameras are always right and that I should remember what I see on paper.
Who are you to determine whether or not I am a good poster child to win this battle or not? Do I have to be an old lady or something? Do I have to have an absolutely spotless record to guarantee a win? What you should be saying is "FTF, your methods are all wrong... do this and this to help us all"... not "FTF, you suck, you have no chance, let me tear you apart for even trying to buck the system".
Again... I don't care. Why would I? Yeah, I'm mad as hell. I think this is wrong. I totally disagree with the whole premise and the execution.
You know what? I'm going to get mad as hell. I'm going to spend probably a few hours doing these "stupid" FOI requests. I'm going to try to find out why these cameras are not good for me. Will I win. No. Will anyone care. No. Hell, at least I'm trying to be proactive. I'll probably waste 10 hours of my time and 100 bucks of my money doing these FOI requests just to get a simple justification in writing as to why I ran this red light even though I probably did it... but you know what... I'm not going to be a pushover... isn't that the whole spirit of this board? Regardless, I don't care... don't make it a bigger deal that it is... are traffic cameras right or wrong? I think they are wrong. I'm going to use my rights to tell the judge I think just that.
I'm not defending myself here. I was asking for opinions. Guess that the consensus is that the cameras are always right and that I should remember what I see on paper.
I don't know if it helps but the photocops were ruled illegal by a Minnesota court, I don't have the exact citation but it was in the last year or so. They had to shut them down and they are arguing about whether the fines have to be repaid to the "violators"
Good Luck
Good Luck
Lawyer here. I'm not going to comment on the morality of your case, merely the law. States are moving away from the "fault" theory of red-light running because it's costing them too much. The red light cameras are great for income generation, as long as the violators don't challenge them. Once people start challenging the photos taken of their faces, the state starts running up costs that can't be justifed.
I understand that your state has moved away from the cameras that take a photo of your face and license plate to ones that take only a photo of the license plate. As you know, there is no "culpability" here, therefore you don't get any "points" on your license nor does your insurance ever know about it. However, because of this the infraction is now "strict liability".. that is, it doesn't matter who was driving the car, the owner is liable for the fine. Just like parking tickets; doesn't matter who parked your car illegally, it's still you who pays.
The only thing you can do is file a civil action against the driver of the car to "indemnify" you (ie, pay you) for what you had to pay the state. Since you were the driver in this case, that's not going to help you.
So unless I'm mistaken and your state uses some hybrid law, you're SOL with this. In CA we still have "fault" cameras which take a photo of your face. I just cover my face with my hand (leaving gaps in my fingers to see through) if I think it's going to be close. I've run one or two, seen the flash, and never even had a ticket mailed to me (they don't send 'em if they don't have a clear photo of the face). I'd say pay the $70 and invest your time and money on developing a coating that makes license plates invisible to cameras or something.
I understand that your state has moved away from the cameras that take a photo of your face and license plate to ones that take only a photo of the license plate. As you know, there is no "culpability" here, therefore you don't get any "points" on your license nor does your insurance ever know about it. However, because of this the infraction is now "strict liability".. that is, it doesn't matter who was driving the car, the owner is liable for the fine. Just like parking tickets; doesn't matter who parked your car illegally, it's still you who pays.
The only thing you can do is file a civil action against the driver of the car to "indemnify" you (ie, pay you) for what you had to pay the state. Since you were the driver in this case, that's not going to help you.
So unless I'm mistaken and your state uses some hybrid law, you're SOL with this. In CA we still have "fault" cameras which take a photo of your face. I just cover my face with my hand (leaving gaps in my fingers to see through) if I think it's going to be close. I've run one or two, seen the flash, and never even had a ticket mailed to me (they don't send 'em if they don't have a clear photo of the face). I'd say pay the $70 and invest your time and money on developing a coating that makes license plates invisible to cameras or something.
Crosshair
Member
People here keep complaining about "don't run a red light". Here is a bit of fact we don't know.
Was the camera calibrated properly?
It is not illegal to go through the intersection when the light is yellow.
Unless I am very wrong, in most all places if you are in the intersection before the light turned red you are OK.
All traffic lights that I am aware of have a delay between light "A" turning red and light "B" turning green. This is logical because it allows anyone already in the intersection to clear it. Does the camera have this same delay. (Kind of ties in with Calibration.")
Has there been a study to determine if the cameras actualy decrease accidets at that specific itersection? (Generaly they increase accidents.) If it increases overall accidents then it should be declared a road hazard and removed. (You could use this as a point of argument FTF.)
I don't know, for all I know FTF could have been doing 80 MPH in a 40 and ran the light after it had been red for 10 seconds. Or he could have been doing the speed limit, cleared the light before it turned red and the camera was miscalibrated. He came here asking for help and I am trying to do so. Unless I know all the details I am not going to pass judgement on his case.
So he stuck his foot into his mouth in the begining of the thread. He apologized and admited that he FUBAR'd that statement. Fine, lets move on and not keep giving him a hard time. I don't like red light cameras and wish that they be outlawed.
For those who say that the courts have upheld cameras. The courts have upheld alot of stuff that is wrong. Take the SC Eminent Domain case, or segregation, or any number of issues. Judges are not gods, they are humans and sometimes they make bad decisions.
There I am done for tonight.
Was the camera calibrated properly?
It is not illegal to go through the intersection when the light is yellow.
Unless I am very wrong, in most all places if you are in the intersection before the light turned red you are OK.
All traffic lights that I am aware of have a delay between light "A" turning red and light "B" turning green. This is logical because it allows anyone already in the intersection to clear it. Does the camera have this same delay. (Kind of ties in with Calibration.")
Has there been a study to determine if the cameras actualy decrease accidets at that specific itersection? (Generaly they increase accidents.) If it increases overall accidents then it should be declared a road hazard and removed. (You could use this as a point of argument FTF.)
I don't know, for all I know FTF could have been doing 80 MPH in a 40 and ran the light after it had been red for 10 seconds. Or he could have been doing the speed limit, cleared the light before it turned red and the camera was miscalibrated. He came here asking for help and I am trying to do so. Unless I know all the details I am not going to pass judgement on his case.
So he stuck his foot into his mouth in the begining of the thread. He apologized and admited that he FUBAR'd that statement. Fine, lets move on and not keep giving him a hard time. I don't like red light cameras and wish that they be outlawed.
For those who say that the courts have upheld cameras. The courts have upheld alot of stuff that is wrong. Take the SC Eminent Domain case, or segregation, or any number of issues. Judges are not gods, they are humans and sometimes they make bad decisions.
There I am done for tonight.
WeedWhacker
Member
Back to the topic at hand...
Red light cameras are a pox on the lot of us citizens. Traffic signals exist to promote traffic safety, not to be a law unto themselves, which is to say that circumstances can exist during which it would be unsafe to obey traffic signals.
Circumstance numbero uno: yellow light too short.
I now wish I had kept notes relating to a short study I'd read regarding red light cameras in Washington D.C. (IIRC) - accidents *increased* at traffic lights with the cameras installed, because drivers were slamming on the brakes to avoid the intersection. So much for "safety".
Red light cameras are a pox on the lot of us citizens. Traffic signals exist to promote traffic safety, not to be a law unto themselves, which is to say that circumstances can exist during which it would be unsafe to obey traffic signals.
Circumstance numbero uno: yellow light too short.
I now wish I had kept notes relating to a short study I'd read regarding red light cameras in Washington D.C. (IIRC) - accidents *increased* at traffic lights with the cameras installed, because drivers were slamming on the brakes to avoid the intersection. So much for "safety".
The issues about the photo of your face and the legality of traffic cameras is an individual state issue and covered by the different laws in each state. Defending yourself by quoting the law of another state is no defense at all. I'm sure the state considered all the possibilities before implementing the law allowing these cameras.
In most states the registered owner of the car is responsible for whatever laws are broken unless they can show they were operating it. Motor vehicle law in most states is not criminal but quasi-criminal so beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't apply.
What you say in court can become more costly if the judge decides what you say amounts to contempt of court.
I don't like these cameras but it looks like your stuck with the ticket unless you find some way out.
In most states the registered owner of the car is responsible for whatever laws are broken unless they can show they were operating it. Motor vehicle law in most states is not criminal but quasi-criminal so beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't apply.
What you say in court can become more costly if the judge decides what you say amounts to contempt of court.
I don't like these cameras but it looks like your stuck with the ticket unless you find some way out.
I got a series of tickets in the mail when Minneapolis was running this scam. I was in downtown when there happened to be a fire and I got caught in the intersection being blocked by two firetrucks, I pulled up as far as i could be could not clear the intersection. Every time the light changed for like ten minutes till I was able to get a beat cop to block traffic coming from the cross street so i could be up and get out of there, I was getting a ticket. I went down the bureau where they were handling this and the fat cow at the counter could not understand why I believed I should get a reprieve. ELEVEN tickets, with me CLEARLy being captured between two fire trucks, but I was somehow to blame for this. finally I got a supervisor who looked at the tickets, the time stamps and the situation and just said delete them all to the Cow.
NOTE if you want to win the war. Find the MPLS ruling that said they were a violation of your constitutional rights and he threw the system out.
NOTE if you want to win the war. Find the MPLS ruling that said they were a violation of your constitutional rights and he threw the system out.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/03/16/m/
http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_073153511.html
Two hits on the judge stopping the red light cams get this in court, maybe your judge feels the same way
http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_073153511.html
Two hits on the judge stopping the red light cams get this in court, maybe your judge feels the same way
lurkersince03
Member
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- Jun 12, 2006
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LOLOLOLOL
Seriously. You guys crack me up.
FTF, keep on keepin' on man. Don't let these guys tell you what's up. Thus far, you're one of the most realest persons on these boards I've seen. A lot of these people would like you to believe that they'd never jay-walk even if it meant saving them the time to walk around the block. Do what you gotta do and don't let these dudes be hatin' on you.
Seriously. You guys crack me up.
FTF, keep on keepin' on man. Don't let these guys tell you what's up. Thus far, you're one of the most realest persons on these boards I've seen. A lot of these people would like you to believe that they'd never jay-walk even if it meant saving them the time to walk around the block. Do what you gotta do and don't let these dudes be hatin' on you.
Never committing a small traffic crime and trying to weasel my way out of it are entirely different. Have I gotten pulled over for speeding? Sure. But did I try any of those popular tricks to get out of it? No. I just paid it and drove a little slower.
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