I Guess This Means the Invasion of Saudi Arabia is a "GO"!

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Sure, because fire-bombing or nuking hundreds of thousands of toddlers is always morally justified if the United States does it, because we're always a just nation. Even when we do the same thing to folks in Texas.

Wrong is wrong. Deliberately killing toddlers and infants is wrong. You're welcome to justify it any way you want, but that's not the moral high ground. It may have been a better choice than the alternative, but that's a "lesser evil" choice -- not the moral choice.
The only moral choice made in war is the choice of first physical aggression. That is the immoral choice (which Saudi citizens made on 9/11). Any response to that is simply survival. To pit survival against morality and judge those who act for their own preservation borders on immoral itself. How would failure to retaliate to the utmost for the preservation of one's own nation (faith,family or person for that matter) be an immoral choice in the face of another's physical aggression? I don't think all out war was an immoral choice against the nazis or imperial Japan, and I don't think it is an immoral against those societies whose members attack our citizens directly or by proxies that they finance and give tangible support to.

Honestly, if any government could bring charges that we had initiated violence against them, I would find some sympathy for their decision to defend themselves. However when a country's citizens attack us because they feel that our economic or political system is reducing the faith of their followers or undermining their culture, I don't feel that that is at all justified.
 
Poodleshooter said:
While your comments about the strategic bombing survey are correct, I won’t yield the moral high ground to our enemies,nor will I condemn our nation for what it did in WWII. Our strategic bombing may have been ineffective, but it was morally justified.

You will notice I didn’t condemn Allied action during the Second World War. As I said, strategic bombing was a mistake made during a desperate time and is thus excusable for the most part. It was an untried military theory and raised concerns about morality even before the war. Afterwards, it was recognized as wrong both morally and militarily. In this case, the ends did not justify the means.

The comparison here is destroying Mecca and Medina or otherwise launching a general attack against all Arabs/Muslims. In addition to being morally wrong, such an action would probably fail strategically as well. Also, we shouldn’t forget that a general war between Islam and the West is exactly what al Qaida is trying to start.

~G. Fink
 
Here's the problem: If they are not directly involved in terrorism (and clearly the majority are not carrying arms or making bombs), then what are the grounds for killing them? What do you mean by "indirect support"? If you mean believing or saying "terror attacks are Okay", then you support killing people for their beliefs. It does not matter how wrongheaded or evil those beliefs are, you are supporting killing for belief alone.
I'll clarify indirect support: financial support for those who participate in bombings or other first strike aggression. There's been plenty of documentation of that happening in SA and also in Iraq.

Now let's add to that the fact that it's a percentage of the society. If 70 percent of Saudi Arabia supports terrorism, that leaves 30 percent of about 26 million people who don't. That leaves just shy of 8 million people that you're willing to kill in order to punish the other 70 percent for supporting violence that less than 1 percent are actively involved in committing. "Instant sunshine" means murdering civillians, and it is no better than what the terrorists are doing.
If you can't support the concept of at least some degree of group culpability, than you remove all social responsibility from individuals to control their fellow citizens actions,and you remove the moral validity of any warmaking of any kind, leaving only targeted assassinations as morally valid. I can't buy that.

Imagine someone in Iraq following this logic:

"Some Americans have abused Iraqis in Abu Ghraib. Most Americans support the army that did this, and do not think Abu Ghraib was a big deal. One American congressman has even talked about nuking our holiest city, Mecca. Therefore, most Americans support indirectly the abuse of Iraqis and all muslims."

Would that reasoning justify bombing new york? How's it any different from the process of reasoning that you're using to justify attacks on Saudi civillians?
Since the question of who struck first regarding Iraq is a bit sketchy, I'll have to default to my "first aggressor principle". Did Iraq attack us, or plot to attack us first, or did we actually preemptively attack with insufficient aggression against us. It's not as clear as it is with the Saudis.

Deliberately killing toddlers and infants is wrong.
It is wrong. We agree on that. What we don't agree on is who shoulders the moral responsibility falls on. I say that when it's part of "collateral damage" as a result of bombing the citizens who support terror with their finances, donations,volunteer time,etc. it falls on the shoulders of those who began the aggression.
The culpable party at Dresden was not the Allies, but the Axis powers for beginning the aggression.
 
When people believe in individualism, treat them as individuals; when they believe in groupthink, treat them as a group. Leave it up to them how they will be dealt with.

Which culture is it that is toying with the idea of genocide?
 
Also, we shouldn’t forget that a general war between Islam and the West is exactly what al Qaida is trying to start.
Oddly enough, that's not a war they can win if we look at all of the numbers on paper. The reason they persist is that for some reason they don't seem to know that they can't win. They think that their superior will to win somehow trumps our technological advantage. Then again, maybe they're right....
 
I think, more importantly perhaps, that they're quite willing and eager to die for their cause. That makes for a truly dangerous opponant.
Biker
 
The only moral choice made in war is the choice of first physical aggression.
So, raping and pillaging after the other country started it is OK? Collecting civilians in conquored territory and summarily executing them is OK? Torturing enemy POWs to death is ok, and involves no moral choices?

Every act is potentially a moral act -- no action that another takes against you removes any moral burden your own actions might incur.

It's frightening that you think otherwise.

That is the immoral choice (which Saudi citizens made on 9/11).
That it looks like fifteen Saudis made.

Any response to that is simply survival.
I can burn down your entire apartment complex because two people who live there raped my sister last night.

Doesn't fly, dude. You can't hold them accountable morally, just like the Jihadis are wrong if they try to hold poor black sharecroppers personally culpable for the actions of this administration, even if they voted against them.

To pit survival against morality and judge those who act for their own preservation borders on immoral itself.
So, those butchers in Iraq who were minding their own business and responding to force appropriately (even though the force may have been political rather than physical), incurring no moral penalty (they didn't force that guy to publish that -- he did, they just responded), are morally justified in resisting the US occupation, right? Survival and acting in the interest of their own preservation.

I don't think all out war was an immoral choice against the nazis or imperial Japan,
Right. Condemning toddlers to horrible fiery deaths is perfectly OK with you provided they had the misfortune to be born on the wrong piece of land.

I think we all see where your "morals" fall.

and I don't think it is an immoral against those societies whose members attack our citizens directly or by proxies that they finance and give tangible support to.
Lemms see if I can sum this up properly.
  • The Saudis gain control of Saudi Arabia with the help of the western nations.
  • Over decades they slowly destroy the middle class of their country, and force their countrymen to enture the worst sorts of tyrrany imaginable.
  • Citizens wanting to eliminate the tyrrany are confronted with F16's bought from the United States, along with the rest of the arsenals.
  • The US is aware of the problem, but sees no problem with tyrrany provided the tyrant works with our global interests.
  • In an effort to maintain power, the Saudi Royal Family (all thousands of them) start to support the idea of radical islamic training in the nation's schools and mosques. They support the Jihadis so the Jihadis will put off regime change a little bit longer.
  • The Jihadis, along with bits of the Saudi Government, contribute to 9/11.
Because of all this, those disaffected citizens living under a tyrant we created and support, now must all die.

Dude, I don't agree at all.
 
Reference Material Detailing Saudi Support of Terrorism

Copied from previous posts:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain565782.shtml



WASHINGTON, July 29, 2003
Bush: 9/11 Report Restricted

(CBS/AP) President Bush refused on Tuesday to release a congressional report alleging possible links between Saudi Arabian officials and the Sept. 11 hijackers. The White House sought to question a Saudi citizen who befriended two of the hijackers.

The information is widely believed to center on Saudi Arabia, birthplace of Osama bin Laden and 15 of the 19 hijackers. Saudi Arabia has vehemently denied supporting the hijackers.

Sources tell CBS the redacted section lays out a money trail between Saudi Arabia and supporters of al Qaeda, reports CBS White House Chief Correspondent John Roberts.

Among others, it singles out Omar al-Bayoumi, who gave financial assistance to 9-11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar.

The FBI charges al-Bayoumi, an official of the Saudi civil aviation authority, never lacked for money and is believed to have received funds from a charitable trust run by the wife of the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S. The Saudis, for all their protestations of cooperating in the war on terror, still refuse to allow the FBI access to al-Bayoumi.




5. The Saudis are connected to al-Qaeda: In his book, Why America Slept, author Gerald Posner quotes U.S. officials as saying a key al-Qaeda operative in U.S. custody, Abu Zubaydah, told his interrogators that al-Qaeda had an explicit deal with the Saudi royals to desist from violence in the kingdom in exchange for Saudi financing. [Source: Time Magazine, September 15, 2003]




Saudi Arabia is still the largest sponsor and supporter of Islamic terrorism in the world. Spreading the Wahhabi Cult across the Muslim world (including many Muslims in America) and teaching hate and intolerance, even of non-Wahhabi Muslims.



http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/080303A.shtml

Saudi Government Provided Aid to 9/11 Hijackers, Sources Say
By Josh Meyer
The Los Angeles Times

Saturday 02 August 2003

WASHINGTON - The 27 classified pages of a congressional report about Sept. 11 depict a Saudi government that not only provided significant money and aid to the suicide hijackers but also allowed potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to flow to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups through suspect charities and other fronts, according to sources familiar with the document.

One U.S. official who has read the classified section said it describes "very direct, very specific links" between Saudi officials, two of the San Diego-based hijackers and other potential co-conspirators "that cannot be passed off as rogue, isolated or coincidental."

Said another official: "It's really damning. What it says is that not only Saudi entities or nationals are implicated in 9/11, but the [Saudi] government" as well.


http://worldnetdaily.com/news/artic...RTICLE_ID=33482

Saudi royals funding Palestinian jihad
Riyadh reportedly has spent more than $4 billion on intifada

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 9, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Jon Dougherty
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

The royal family of Saudi Arabia donated more than $4 billion to the Palestinians between 1998 and 2003 to help finance offensive terrorist operations against Israel, a new report says.

According to the Middle East Media Research Institute, a Washington, D.C-based group that monitors Mideast media, the House of Saud's support has gone to "'Mujahideen fighters' and 'families of martyrs'" killed in operations against the Jewish state.




http://users.rcn.com/rahmercl/CIPAC/Weiner-Ferguson.htm

SUPPORT THE WEINER-FERGUSON AMENDMENT TO PROHIBIT AID TO SAUDI ARABIA


Dear Colleague:


Despite efforts to persuade us otherwise, the Saudis have not been a true ally in the war on terror. They have stymied our terror investigations, provided financial support to terrorists, and bankrolled fanatical Wahhabism. That's why last year a majority of you supported an amendment to strike funding for the Saudis in the Foreign Operations Appropriations bill. This year we are asking for your support again.


1. The vast majority of suicide bombers in Iraq are Saudis: 70% percent of suicide bombers named on Islamic extremist websites are Saudi, according to experts. And 61% of Arab martyrs in Iraq are Saudi. As recently as May 28, 2005, Syria arrested 300 Saudis trying to cross into Iraq to join the jihad against the U.S. [Source: Washington Post, "Martyrs' In Iraq Mostly Saudis; Web Sites Track Suicide Bombings," May 15, 2005; Arab News "Syria Arrests 300 Saudis, May 28, 2005]


2. Saudi efforts to prosecute terrorists are inept: The Council on Foreign Relations recently wrote: "We find it regrettable and unacceptable that since September 11, 2001, we know of not a single Saudi donor of funds to terrorist groups who has been publicly punished-despite Ambassador Bandar's assertion, in response to the issuance of our first report, that Saudi Arabia would 'prosecute the guilty to the fullest extent of the law.'" [Source: Council on Foreign Relations, "Update on the Global Campaign Against Terrorist Financing," pg. 20, June 2004)


3. The Saudis finance terror groups: More than 50% of Hamas funding comes from Saudi Arabia, which has funneled over $4 billion to finance Palestinian terror since 2000. (Source: Ambassador Dore Gold's testimony to the House International Relations Subcommittee on the Middle East and Central Asia, July 21, 2003)


4. The Saudis thwart American anti-terror efforts: The Saudis have denied U.S. officials access to several suspects in custody, including a Saudi in detention for months who had knowledge of extensive plans to inject poison gas in the New York City subway system. [Source: Time Magazine, September 15, 2003]


5. The Saudis are connected to al-Qaeda: In his book, Why America Slept, author Gerald Posner quotes U.S. officials as saying a key al-Qaeda operative in U.S. custody, Abu Zubaydah, told his interrogators that al-Qaeda had an explicit deal with the Saudi royals to desist from violence in the kingdom in exchange for Saudi financing. [Source: Time Magazine, September 15, 2003]


Our amendment would prohibit U.S. aid to the Saudis. Please contact Daniel Greenspahn in Mr. Weiner's office (5-6616) or Amanda Tharpe in Mr. Ferguson's office (5-5361) with any questions or concerns.


Sincerely,

ANTHONY D. WEINER MICHAEL FERGUSON




http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/list.htm

Saudi Arabia: Number 1 Terrorist State
Appeasement of Saudi Arabia even in the aftermath of September 11 is absurd and borders on treason. It does nothing to help the Moslem world come out of its state of deep denial for the responsibility for the worst terrorist outrage of all time. This denial is as irrational as the culture and religion that caused it. The real winner of Western appeasement has been Osama bin Laden and like-minded religious fanatics. Brezhinski's "excellent idea" (going back to President Carter) of using fundamentalist Islam to fight Soviet Communism has backfired by failing to grasp Islam's inherent link with violence and intolerance. The US helped create bin Laden then ignored the problem in order to appease Saudi Arabia.

Jonathan Pollard tried to warn both the US and Israel of what was going on and got "nailed to the cross" for treason. Turns out he wasn't the one selling out US Intelligence, the real culprits were a pair of WASP's nailed in the 1990's, not a Jew. But the fact he was a Jew was a ready excuse to silence a fair inquiry. Threatening Americans has become a worthy goal for Ashcroft and Bush.

Saudi Arabia is still the largest sponsor and supporter of Islamic terrorism in the world. Spreading the Wahhabi Cult across the Muslim world (including many Muslims in America) and teaching hate and intolerance, even of non-Wahhabi Muslims. The hate being taught in schools and mosques must be ended. The American "crack whore" addiction to cheap oil must end or we will continue to sell-out everything we stand for just to get the next fix. $3 a gallon for gas is cheaper then the next September 11.




AFTER 9/11 - CLASSIFYING INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE: In 2003, more and more evidence began to appear tying the Saudi royal family to the attacks. For instance, Newsweek reported that thousands of dollars in charitable gifts from Princess Haifa, the wife of Prince Bandar, "ended up in the hands of two of the September 11 hijackers." Yet, as congressional committees prepared to release a bipartisan report on the 9/11 attacks, the Bush Administration swiftly moved to classify a section of the report which dealt with the Saudi ties to the attack. According to CBS News, that section "examined interactions between Saudi businessmen and the royal family that may have intentionally or unwittingly aided al Qaeda or the suicide hijackers." Not surprisingly, months after 9/11 Vice President Cheney went on Fox News to announce the Administration's full opposition to an independent 9/11 commission.

AFTER 9/11 - STILL PRAISING THE SAUDIS WHILE THEY REFUSE TO COOPERATE: President Bush has simultaneously repeated a mantra that "if you aid a terrorist, if you hide terrorists, you're just as guilty as the terrorists" while also going "out of his way to compliment the Saudis." While the President says the Saudis are an "important friend" to the United States, the royal family "refuses to permit United States investigators to interrogate one of bin Laden's key financial aides-Sidi Tayyib" a man who "probably knows as much as anyone else about bin Laden's intricate financial empire." Meanwhile, officials at the Treasury and Justice departments have privately expressed deep frustration over the failure of the Saudi government to impose stricter controls over their Islamic charities and turn over crucial evidence about the murky flow of money to Al Qaeda.



http://www.monies.cc/publications/saudi_finance.htm

SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY

Loretta Napoleoni

Late in the day, on September 11, 2001, when the news broke that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens, the White House and the Saudi Embassy were already engaged in collateral damage control. Throughout September, George W. Bush appeared in public accompanied by the Saudi Ambassador, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and by several other distinguished Muslim and Arab-American friends, who had generously contributed to his presidential campaign. Paradoxically, most of them had links with radical Islamist groups. On September 14, in a display of solidarity for Bush’s “war on terror”, Muzammil Siddiqi, president of the Islamic Society of North America, was photographed at the White House with the President and 15 other prominent American Muslims. A year earlier, Siddiqi had addressed a pro-Hezbollah crowd in Washington, predicting that the wrath of God would soon land on American soil. In the same picture, sandwiched between Siddiqi and Bush, was Salam Al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, who, on the afternoon of 9/11, had stated on a Los Angeles public radio station that "we should put the State of Israel on the suspect list" for the terrorist attacks. On September 17, during his historic visit to the Islamic Center in Washington, the President was filmed with Khaled Saffuri, former deputy director of the American Muslim Council, a radical Islamic institution, whose director, Abduraman Alamoudi, had publicly supported Hamas and Hezbollah.

As investigations were carried out across the world, the Saudi connection with Islamist terror kept re-surfacing and the White House began to struggle pretending that the Kingdom was a loyal ally. A new reality emerged: Saudi Arabian involvement in terrorism was by no mean limited to Osama bin Laden and his entourage. Beyond the 15 Saudi hijackers stood not an isolated group, Al Qaeda, but rather a global financial network. Americans learned that, for decades, Islamic banks had funneled Saudi charities’ money, via subsidiaries and corresponding banks, to terror groups and cells scattered across the world. Businessman, traders, bankers, individuals, even members of the Saudi Royal family, had contributed, in one-way or another, to this pool of money. Prince Bandar’s own wife, a personal friend of the Bush family and the Saudi King’s daughter, was caught in this web when the media unveiled that some of her personal charitable donations had ended up in the pockets of two 9/11 hijackers.

Against this extraordinary background, the US has not taken any serious measure against Saudi Arabia. After the destruction of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, the second chapter of Bush and Blair’s ‘war on terror’ unfolded north of Saudi Arabia, inside Iraq, where a controversial war was fought against Saddam Hussein and his dictatorial regime. Why did coalition forces not hunt down those who have been funding terrorism? Why did the White House censor the sections referring to Saudi financing of the Congressional Report on 9/11? Because of a shocking paradox: for the last 25 years, the US government has been in bed with Saudi Arabia, the hot bed of Wahhabism, the root of Islamist terror.
 
ditto

Saudi Arabia's Links to Terrorism
A briefing by Laurent Murawiec
November 19, 2002


Once upon a time, there were solid grounds for a partnership between the United States and Saudi Arabia. After World War II, the kingdom's vast oil reserves and willingness to use its production capacity to ensure moderate and stable world oil prices were rightly judged to be vital to American national security. In return for these strategic assets, the United States pledged to protect the kingdom's oil supplies and obstruct those who would seek to control them, particularly the Soviet Union. Thus, when FDR met with King Abdulaziz bin Saud in 1945, a marriage of convenience was born. But the original reasons for this marriage of convenience have long since faded away. It is time for a divorce.


The Saudi Royal Family
Since it established control over the Arabia peninsula in the 1920s, the Saudi royal family has claimed to be the guardian of Islam's two holiest sites – Mecca and Medina – and prides itself on upholding the "purest" form of Islam, known as Wahhabism. Wahhabism dates back to a pact between eighteenth century Arabian zealot Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and a desert brigand named Ibn Saud, which enshrined an alliance through marriage that produced the Saudi royal family. Until the late 1970s, Wahhabism was an extreme sect that happened to rule Saudi Arabia, but did not bother too many outside the kingdom's borders. To counter the proliferation of anti-Saudi Iranian propaganda, however, the Saudis decided to spread Wahhabi teachings abroad. The royal family's oil wealth poured into countries throughout the Islamic world, from West Africa to Indonesia, fueling a proliferation of madrasas (religious schools) that indoctrinated a new generation of Islamists. Even in the United States, Muslim children studied Islamic primers shipped from Wahhabi institutes in Saudi Arabia.

The Monster they Created
The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979 provided the kingdom with an ideal opportunity to sponsor a bona fide holy war that would showcase Wahhabi ideals and quiet Iranian-inspired Islamist opposition to the monarchy. Madrasas around the Arab and Islamic world produced shock troops for this jihad. After the Russians were driven out of Afghanistan, these "Arab Afghans" began trickling home and looked for other jihads. The Saudis had created a monster; to be sure they did not wreak havoc inside the kingdom, bin Laden and other Saudi Islamists were encouraged to wage holy war abroad. When the Clinton administration cornered Osama bin Laden in the Sudan in 1998, the Saudis refused to allow his extradition back home, where he could be neutralized. Instead, the Saudi intelligence chief – Prince Turki – reportedly offered bin Laden $200 million to go to Afghanistan, on the condition that he not target the Saudi royal family. Bin Laden honored his promise – there has not been a single attack by Al-Qaeda against the Al-Saud family. Inside the kingdom, Al-Qaeda has only operated against the Americans and the British. Over time, the understanding became that bin Laden would leave the Saudis alone only if they allowed the network of charities funding Al-Qaeda to operate unhindered. On the day after the September 11 attacks, the first thing Riyadh did was evacuate two dozen members of the bin Laden family residing in the US on the private jet of its ambassador, Prince Bandar.

Conclusion
With the end of the Cold War, the most persuasive reasons for maintaining the marriage of convenience with Saudi Arabia disappeared. With the September 11 attacks, the returns on this partnership went from zero to negative. The Saudis have become the friends of our enemies and the enemies of our friends. Bin Laden is an extension of Saudi foreign policy. To be fair, the Saudis don't quite know how to deal with the monster they've created – so far they've avoided tough choices. As long as the benefits of sponsoring terror are enormous and the costs of sponsoring terror are negligible, they will not take decisive action. The US must therefore make the costs of funding Wahhabi extremism terribly high, while making the benefits slim pickings.







http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp504.htm


SAUDI ARABIA'S DUBIOUS DENIALS OF
INVOLVEMENT IN INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM
Dore Gold

Saudi Arabia's past involvement in international terrorism is indisputable. While the Bush administration decided to redact 28 sensitive pages of the Joint Intelligence Report of the U.S. Congress, nonetheless, Saudi involvement in terrorist financing can be documented through materials captured by Israel in Palestinian headquarters in 2002-3. In light of this evidence, Saudi denials about terrorist funding don't hold water.

Israel retrieved a document of the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO) which detailed the allocation of $280,000 to 14 Hamas charities. IIRO and other suspected global Saudi charities are not NGOs, since their boards of directors are headed by Saudi cabinet members. Prince Salman, a full brother of King Fahd, controls IIRO distributions "with an iron hand," according to former CIA operative Robert Baer. Mahmoud Abbas, in fact, complained, in a handwritten December 2000 letter to Salman, about Saudi funding of Hamas. Defense Minister Prince Sultan has been cited as a major IIRO contributor.

It was hoped, after the May 12 triple bombing attack in Riyadh, that Saudi Arabia might halt its support for terrorism. Internally, the Saudi security forces moved against al-Qaeda cells all over the kingdom. But externally, the Saudis were still engaged in terrorist financing, underwriting 60-70 percent of the Hamas budget, in violation of their "roadmap" commitments to President Bush.

Additionally, the Saudis back the civilian infrastructure of Hamas with extremist textbooks glorifying jihad and martyrdom that are used by schools and Islamic societies throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Ideological infiltration of Palestinian society by the Saudis in this way is reminiscent of their involvement in the madrassa system of Pakistan during the 1980s, that gave birth to the Taliban and other pro bin-Laden groups.



Saudi Arabia Provided the Ideological Backdrop for 9/11
Two years ago on September 11, 2001, most well-informed observers of the Middle East were shocked to hear that 15 out of the 19 hijackers who carried out the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were Saudi citizens. It was equally surprising that the mastermind of the worst terrorist attack on the United States in its history, Osama bin Laden, was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. This curiosity and wonder about the Saudi role in the attack came up once more with the release of the September 11 Joint Intelligence Report by the U.S. Congress and its disclosure of what the U.S. press called "incontrovertible evidence" linking Saudis to the financing of al-Qaeda operatives in the United States.

For decades, terrorism had been associated with states like Libya, Syria, or Iran. Saudi Arabia had been a pro-Western force during the Cold War and had hosted large coalition armies during the 1991 Gulf War. Saudi Arabia had not been colonized during its history, like other Middle Eastern states that had endured a legacy of European imperialism. This background only sharpened the questions of many after the attacks: What was the precise source of the hatred that drove these men to take their own lives in an act of mass murder? The Saudis were initially in a state of denial about their connection to September 11; Interior Minister Prince Naif even tried to pin the blame for the attacks on Israel, saying it was impossible that Saudi youth could have been involved.1

Yet over time it became clearer how Saudi Arabia could have provided the ideological backdrop that spawned al-Qaeda's attack on the United States. In a series of articles appearing in the Egyptian weekly, Ruz al-Yousef (the Newsweek of Egypt), this past May, Wael al-Abrashi, the magazine's deputy editor, attempted to grapple with this issue. He drew a direct link between the rise of much of contemporary terrorism and Saudi Arabia's main Islamic creed, Wahhabism, and the financial involvement of Saudi Arabia's large charitable organizations:

Wahhabism leads, as we have seen, to the birth of extremist, closed, and fanatical streams, that accuse others of heresy, abolish them, and destroy them. The extremist religious groups have moved from the stage of Takfir [condemning other Muslims as unbelievers] to the stage of "annihilation and destruction," in accordance with the strategy of Al-Qa'ida - which Saudi authorities must admit is a local Saudi organization that drew other organizations into it, and not the other way around. All the organizations emerged from under the robe of Wahhabism.

I can state with certainly that after a very careful reading of all the documents and texts of the official investigations linked to all acts of terror that have taken place in Egypt, from the assassination of the late president Anwar Sadat in October 1981, up to the Luxor massacre in 1997, Saudi Arabia was the main station through which most of the Egyptian extremists passed, and emerged bearing with them terrorist thought regarding Takfir - thought that they drew from the sheikhs of Wahhabism. They also bore with them funds they received from the Saudi charities.2

Thus, while some Western commentators have sought to explain the roots of al-Qaeda's fury at the U.S. by focusing on the history of American policy in the Middle East or other external factors, a growing number of Middle Eastern analysts have concentrated instead on internal Saudi factors, including recent militant trends among Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi clerics and the role of large Saudi global charities in terrorist financing. This requires a careful look at how Saudi Arabia contributed to the ideological roots of some of the new wave of international terrorism as well as how the kingdom emerged as a critical factor in providing the resources needed by many terrorist groups.





http://arabist.net/archives/2005/01/25/pick-your-jihad/

quote:Fundamentalist Islamic leaders in Saudi Arabia are telling militants intent on fighting “infidels” to join the insurgency in Iraq instead of taking up Osama bin Laden’s call to oust the Saudi royal family at home, say Saudi dissidents who monitor theological edicts coming out of the kingdom.///
“To them, Iraq is the answer to their dilemma.”


The Arabist NetworkTuesday 25 January 2005
Pick your jihad

The AP has a story, seemingly mostly sourced from Saudi dissidents based in London, on how Saudi clerics in “the Kingdom” are encouraging wannabe mujahideen to fight in Iraq rather than at home. In other words, they are encouraging a split between Al Qaeda, which calls for the overthrow of the Saudi monarchy, and local Islamists who may be more interested in the issue of jihad in the Arab world at large. One might find it rather odd that the transnational group is calling for internal action while domestic players are trying to export the violence to Iraq — until you remember that much of the Saudi establishment is actually broadly sympathetic to Al Qaeda’s ideals, even if they don’t want them applied at home.

LONDON - Fundamentalist Islamic leaders in Saudi Arabia are telling militants intent on fighting “infidels” to join the insurgency in Iraq instead of taking up Osama bin Laden’s call to oust the Saudi royal family at home, say Saudi dissidents who monitor theological edicts coming out of the kingdom.
Iraq as a battleground offers the solution to a quandary facing the Saudi clerics who have to both placate the kingdom’s rulers and keep their radical base happy.
“If they preach that there ought to be absolutely no jihad, they would lose credibility and support among their followers. So what they do is preach jihad — not in Saudi Arabia, but in Iraq,” said Abdul-Aziz Khamis, a Saudi human rights activist in London.
“To them, Iraq is the answer to their dilemma.”
[snip]
Following another series of attacks last May, several Saudi clerics promised the government not to wage jihad, or holy war, inside Saudi Arabia and to refrain from recruiting activists from the Jihadis group, say Saudi dissidents. Two of them, Salman al-Odeh and Safar al-Hawali, even agreed to fight the Jihadis, although they agree with their ideas, said Khamis.
“Al-Hawali and al-Salman still believe in the principles of jihad. But now they link it with the authority of the ruler,” said Khamis. “Al-Hawali finances and supports people who go to Iraq to fight there, but he is against fighting on Saudi soil.”
[snip]
Saudi clerics such as Al-Odeh and al-Hawali have issued several fatwas saying jihad is legitimate in Iraq. Al-Hawali also opposes beheading foreign hostages for political reasons, even though he supports it from a religious point of view, said Khamis. Al-Odeh was among 26 clerics who called for jihad in Iraq last year.
Saleh al-Owfi, believed to be al-Qaida’s leader in Saudi Arabia, claimed in a Web site statement that al-Hawali had asked him not to fight at home but to go to Iraq, and that he would arrange for him to go there, says Khamis. But al-Owfi replied that everyone should fight on his own turf.
Driving those fundamentalist clerics who are in their pockets against the Al Qaeda sympathisers may work to divert energy away from the movement against the Sauds, but it’s not exactly the actions of an ally, is it?
 
ditto ditto

WASHINGTON — A briefing given last month to a top Pentagon advisory board described Saudi Arabia as an enemy of the United States and recommended U.S. officials give it an ultimatum to stop backing terrorism or face seizure of its oil fields and financial assets invested in America.





http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=v...2&language_id=1

''Uncertainty in Saudi Arabia''


For the last several months, factions within Washington's intellectual and foreign policy circles have been calling for the reevaluation of the United States' relationship with the desert monarchy. Many opine that the negative aspects of the existing regime (the Kingdom's perceived complicity with terrorists, social repression) now outweigh the positive ones (Saudi Arabia contains the largest quantities of the most crucial resource on the planet).

Usually, most critics begin with the fact that 15 of the 19 hijackers involved in the September 11th attacks were Saudi nationals. They then point to a political system (or lack thereof) and society that most Westerners find a bit repressive if not backward and wholly unacceptable -- one which nurtures and exports terrorism. When combined with the geopolitical significance of Saudi oil reserves, the country becomes one which Washington can't help but exert a certain amount of control over and, if need be, critics maintain, its desires for the Kingdom can legitimately be realized through force or "regime change."

In July 2002, during a briefing given to the Defense Advisory Board, a group that advises the Pentagon, an analyst with the Rand Corporation, Laurent Murawiec, depicted Saudi Arabia as a terrorist state that should be considered an enemy of the United States.

Murawiec said, "The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot-soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader. Saudi Arabia supports our enemies and attacks our allies [and is responsible for a] daily outpouring of virulent hatred against the U.S. from Saudi media, 'educational' institutions, clerics, officials -- Saudis tell us one thing in private, do the contrary in reality."

Towards the end of the presentation he added: "There is an 'Arabia,' but it needs not be 'Saudi.'" A brief list is also given, outlining interests Washington could target in order to pressure Riyadh: oil, economic security, The Holy Places.





http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/11/23/saudi.fbi.911/

FBI probes possible Saudi, 9/11 money ties
Saturday, November 23, 2002 Posted: 7:37 PM EST (0037 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI is investigating whether the Saudi Arabian government funneled money to associates of two of the September 11 hijackers, a senior White House official told CNN Saturday.

Findings from an inquiry by the House-Senate Joint Intelligence Committee suggest evidence indicates money from the Saudi Arabian government could have made its way to the two hijackers through two Saudi students when they were in California.

There is some evidence that the students received a payment through the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the United States, according to the inquiry.

But sources said there is no conclusive evidence the Saudi government intentionally funded terror activities against the United States. Fifteen of the 19 September 11 hijackers were Saudis. The Saudi government has condemned their actions.

A U.S. government official said it is not unusual for wealthy Saudi families to send money to less affluent Saudi students. In addition, the official said, that money often is sent through the Saudi Embassy.

Adel Al-Jubeir, a foreign policy adviser to Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, told CNN that Princess Haifa Al-Faisal, wife of Saudi Ambassador, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, is "a very generous woman" who supports many charitable causes.

The princess, however, never sent any money directly to the two hijackers, Al-Jubeir said. An investigation by her office has found the princess sent money to a woman on her charity recipient list and that woman then sent the money to the students.

Al-Faisal does not know who the woman is or why she was on her list, Al-Jubeir said.

"The FBI investigated this matter six months ago [and] the embassy cooperated with them fully," Al-Jubeir said.

He compared the embassy's situation to that of any U.S. bank in which the hijackers might have had an account. The bank, he said, would be no more guilty of aiding the hijackers than is the Saudi embassy.

Congress is preparing a report that suggests the FBI did not aggressively pursue leads concerning the Saudi government and terrorism.

Officials have denied the charge but said they will not comment on details of any ongoing investigation. The FBI issued a statement saying the two Saudi students who, according to sources, received money from the princess were charged with visa fraud. Sources said they are both currently in Saudi Arabia.

"Six months later, what we find surprising is that in Congress, these charges come out," said Al-Jubeir. "We read about it in the media, which leads me to believe that there's a lot of political play here that may not be in line with the facts as we know them, as the FBI knows them, or the facts as Princess Haifa's office has determined."

White House officials traveling with President Bush in Europe acknowledged the FBI and CIA were opposed to making public what they consider highly sensitive information in the case. The officials also said that it would be improper to release information now because of the ongoing FBI investigation.

Al-Jubeir stressed that Saudi Arabia continues to "mercilessly" pursue al Qaeda members and other terrorists.

"It shouldn't be surprising that the president and the secretary of state and all of your senior officials consistently, and on the record, have stated that Saudi Arabia has been most cooperative in this effort," he said.

"The last thing we would do is fund people who would murder us."

Report: Hijackers were befriended
A report in Newsweek magazine provides more details.

Michael Isikoff, who wrote the article, said on CNN's "NewsNight" that one of the students helped the hijackers get an apartment, paid their rent and introduced them around the Muslim community in San Diego, California.

Law enforcement sources told Newsweek the FBI has uncovered financial records showing that the family of Omar Al Bayoumi, a student in San Diego, began receiving payments amounting to about $3,500 a month in early 2000.

According to Newsweek's sources, the money came from an account at Riggs Bank in Washington in Princess Haifa Al-Faisal's name. She is the daughter of the late King Faisal.

After Al Bayoumi left the United States in July 2001, similar payments were being made to another San Diego student, Osama Basnan, Newsweek reported.

According to the magazine's report, Al Bayoumi and Basnan befriended two men who hijacked American Airlines Flight 77 and crashed it into the Pentagon -- Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi.

Isikoff said the timing of the Riggs Bank payments, which began just a couple months after they arrived in the United States, has raised questions about whether Saudi government money found its way to the two hijackers.

"There has been no explanation for why such a high-ranking official, or the wife of such a high-ranking official, would route money to a seeming nobody in San Diego," he said.

However, the magazine said it is unclear whether any of the money transferred through the Riggs account ever reached the hijackers.

-- Senior White House Correspondent John King contributed to this report.







http://www.arableaders.net/Arableaders-5/2.htm


Saudi Arabia enemy of America: Report
Part of `terror chain,' says briefing to Pentagon advisers

By Thomas E. Ricks
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

WASHINGTON — A briefing given last month to a top Pentagon advisory board described Saudi Arabia as an enemy of the United States and recommended U.S. officials give it an ultimatum to stop backing terrorism or face seizure of its oil fields and financial assets invested in America.
"The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot-soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader," stated the explosive briefing, presented July 10 to the Defence Policy Board, a group of intellectuals and former senior officials who advise the Pentagon on defence policy.

"Saudi Arabia supports our enemies and attacks our allies," said the briefing prepared by Laurent Murawiec, a Rand Corporation analyst. A talking point attached to the last of 24 briefing slides went even further, describing Saudi Arabia as "the kernel of evil, the prime mover, the most dangerous opponent" in the Mideast.

The briefing runs counter to the present U.S. stance that Saudi Arabia is a major U.S. ally in the region, yet represents a point of view that has growing currency within the Bush administration, especially on the staff of Vice-President Dick Cheney, the Pentagon's civilian leadership, and among neo-conservatives allied with administration policymakers.

One administration official said opinion about Saudi Arabia is changing rapidly within government. "People used to rationalize Saudi behaviour," he said. "You don't hear that anymore. There's no doubt people are recognizing reality and recognizing that Saudi Arabia is a problem."

The decision to bring the anti-Saudi analysis before the defence board also appears tied to the growing debate over whether to launch a U.S. military attack to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. The board chairman is former Pentagon official Richard Perle, one of the most prominent advocates in Washington of just such an invasion. He did not return calls for comment.

Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said in a statement last night: "Neither the presentations nor the Defence Policy Board members' comments reflect the official views of the department of defence." Saudi Arabia, she said, is a longstanding friend and ally and co-operating fully in the global war on terrorism.

Murawiec said in his briefing the U.S. should demand Riyadh stop funding fundamentalist Islamic outlets, stop all anti-U.S. and anti-Israeli statements in the country, and "prosecute or isolate those involved in the terror chain, including in the Saudi intelligence services." If the Saudis refused to comply, the briefing continued, Saudi oil fields and overseas financial assets should be "targeted."

The report concludes by linking regime change in Iraq to altering Saudi behaviour. This view holds that once a U.S. invasion has removed Saddam from power, a friendly successor regime would become a major exporter of oil to the West. That would diminish dependence on Saudi exports, and let the U.S. finally confront the House of Saud for supporting terrorism.

"The road to the entire Middle East goes through Baghdad," said the administration official, who is hawkish on Iraq. "Once you have a democratic regime in Iraq, like the ones we helped establish in Germany and Japan after World War II, there are a lot of possibilities."
 
I'll clarify indirect support: financial support for those who participate in bombings or other first strike aggression. There's been plenty of documentation of that happening in SA and also in Ira

If it's documented, go after the individuals who are giving the money. Why do you need to bomb whole neighborhoods, babies and all, if you have proof of who's giving money?

If you can't support the concept of at least some degree of group culpability, than you remove all social responsibility from individuals to control their fellow citizens actions,and you remove the moral validity of any warmaking of any kind, leaving only targeted assassinations as morally valid. I can't buy that.

It is utter fallacy to say that only targeted assassinations are allowed if you reject collective responsibility. Soldiers in uniform are bearing arms against you. Terrorists are bearing arms against you. That's why 500 years of moral development have left us with laws of war that allow only for attacks on Soldiers. That's exactly the point: "social responsibility", ie, collective guilt, is immoral, and attacks on people who are not directly participating in the bearing of arms against you have been considered war crimes since before the 100 years war.

Since the question of who struck first regarding Iraq is a bit sketchy, I'll have to default to my "first aggressor principle". Did Iraq attack us, or plot to attack us first, or did we actually preemptively attack with insufficient aggression against us. It's not as clear as it is with the Saudis.

There is no evidence of a plot for Iraq to have invaded the US before the war. So it would be reasonable for an Iraqi citizen to see the invasion of his country as the first aggression, right? I think you can't deny that point. If so, the US being the "first aggressor" against his country, would said Iraqi be justified in coming to america and shooting little kids at a bus stop? How about morally justified in bombing New York to smithereens? After all, it's at least reasonable for him to believe that the US was the "first agressor" against his people. It's just a question of survival, right?

It is wrong. We agree on that. What we don't agree on is who shoulders the moral responsibility falls on. I say that when it's part of "collateral damage" as a result of bombing the citizens who support terror with their finances, donations,volunteer time,etc. it falls on the shoulders of those who began the aggression.
The culpable party at Dresden was not the Allies, but the Axis powers for beginning the aggression.


This reasoning sounds strikingly familiar. Look at what some world leaders have said:
"And just as your beautiful skyscrapers were destroyed and caused your grief, beautiful buildings and
precious homes crumbled over their owners in Lebanon, Palestine, and Iraq by American weapons....
Americans should feel the pain they have inflicted on other peoples of the world, so as when they suffer, they
will find the right solution and the right path. " - President Saddam Hussein, Iraq


From: http://www.worldstatesmen.org/index2.html

Looks like you and Saddam are on the same page. I see it as "You kill my brother, I'll retaliate by killing some guy who lives on your street and his whole family" style (in)Justice.

When you advocate war crimes, you are responsible. Period. And then we have the final issue you brought up....

Oddly enough, that's not a war they can win if we look at all of the numbers on paper.

I'm not sure who you mean by "they", but if you mean Islamist terrorists, right now, they are a tiny fraction of the 1.2 billion peaceful and good Muslims in the world. If we follow your plan and start blowing up little kids in Saudi Arabia, I guarantee you their numbers will grow....and rightfully so. The attacks on Americans are wrong specifically because they are brutal attacks on civillians who are doing no violence to anyone else; if you advocate doing the same to millions, you deserve every bit of backlash it will create.
 
If it's documented, go after the individuals who are giving the money. Why do you need to bomb whole neighborhoods, babies and all, if you have proof of who's giving money?
How do we do that if it's completely legal in their society, and encouraged by their neighbors?

It is utter fallacy to say that only targeted assassinations are allowed if you reject collective responsibility. Soldiers in uniform are bearing arms against you. Terrorists are bearing arms against you. That's why 500 years of moral development have left us with laws of war that allow only for attacks on Soldiers. That's exactly the point: "social responsibility", ie, collective guilt, is immoral, and attacks on people who are not directly participating in the bearing of arms against you have been considered war crimes since before the 100 years war.
Not at all. If there were soldiers in Saudia Arabia bearing arms openly against us, this wouldn't be a difficult moral question. Your idea fails to take in account assymetric or guerrilla warfare. I find that style of warfare to be immoral in the sense that one uses one's own countrymen as shields,forcing a conventional response.
500 years of warfare have left us with moral development? Those same laws of war allow direct execution of non-uniformed combatants. They are NOT held to the same standards as even soldiers are.
By whose standards is the use of collective guilt immoral? Obviously many people disagree on that point or we wouldn't have conventional war as has been practice for the past few centuries. The question of attacks on non-combatants was raised in WWI when the first bombers struck London. It has not yet been resolved. To assert it as a moral certainty has no more base than my claim that it is moral.

This reasoning sounds strikingly familiar. Look at what some world leaders have said

I'm not going to take the Saddam bait. You and I both know that group culpability has driven every war in recent memory. The simple fact that Saddam asserts it does not make it wrong. What makes his statement wrong is his assertion that the United States initiated violence against middle eastern citizens.


I'm not sure who you mean by "they", but if you mean Islamist terrorists, right now, they are a tiny fraction of the 1.2 billion peaceful and good Muslims in the world. If we follow your plan and start blowing up little kids in Saudi Arabia, I guarantee you their numbers will grow....and rightfully so. The attacks on Americans are wrong specifically because they are brutal attacks on civillians who are doing no violence to anyone else; if you advocate doing the same to millions, you deserve every bit of backlash it will create.
Nice attempt to demonize a pronoun. Traditionally, pronouns refer back to the subject in question, in other words the terrorists in this case.
If Islamic terrorists are such a disagreeable, unsympathized with minority in the world, then why haven't they been outed by their neighbors? Why do we see large crowds on TV threatening death to our citizens? Why do they continue to receive financial support. Personally, I think that much of the middle eastern and African Islamic world supports the terrorist's goals even if they don't support their methods. I would really like to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm not seeing enough evidence to the contrary. Statements by CAIR don't count,BTW.
While perhaps cowardly,the attacks on America were wrong not because of who they were conducted upon, but because of why they were conducted-The basis for their aggression was invalid. They attacked us because they disagree with our beliefs,our economic structure and our cultural pressure in their homeland, not because we had first attacked their people.

Anyway, it was interesting discussing morals. I often find disagreement with non-gun related opinions here, but seldom voice my own opinion on it. It provides an interesting window into other's beliefs if nothing else.
 
500 years of warfare have left us with moral development? Those same laws of war allow direct execution of non-uniformed combatants. They are NOT held to the same standards as even soldiers are.
By whose standards is the use of collective guilt immoral? Obviously many people disagree on that point or we wouldn't have conventional war as has been practice for the past few centuries.

This is an easy one: Every single developed nation in the world condemns intentional attacks on noncombatants. Try to find one nation where intentionally killing people who are not individually participating in violence is legal, and you won't. Intentionally killing noncombatants is illegal by international convention, and by domestic law, in every western country. "Corruption of the blood" is specifically prohibited by the US constitution. I think that's pretty good as far as agreement goes.

You and I both know that group culpability has driven every war in recent memory.

I disagree 100 percent. Did we fight Vietnam in order to punish the Vietnamese for communism, or was there a different goal there? Did we fight in Kuwait to punish the Iraqi people for what Saddam's army did? And the most current invasion...are you saying that it was an attack on the whole Iraqi people, since they were "collectively responsible" for some crime that would've justified war? I think you are confusing acts that affect whole groups of people with acts that are specifically designed to be a response to "collective guilt." Yes, wars affect noncombatants. That doesn't mean that every war happens because the US blames all the citizens of the opposing nation for its problems.

If Islamic terrorists are such a disagreeable, unsympathized with minority in the world, then why haven't they been outed by their neighbors?

They have. Almost every terrorist that is captured (and most Al Qaeda captures have come from the Islamic world) ends up in US or US ally hands because someone informed. Terrorists don't go around advertising their membership in deadly plots, no matter where they live, so it's entirely understandable as to why they aren't caught in Islamic countries. It's the same reason they sometimes aren't caught in the US.

Why do we see large crowds on TV threatening death to our citizens?

"large crowds" are a ridiculously small percentage of 1.2 billion people. But in any case, the people who do end up in these crowds are there because they subscribe to a faulty idea--That all Americans and Westerners are collectively guilty for their governments having supporting the regimes that have abused Muslims for 100 years now.

Personally, I think that much of the middle eastern and African Islamic world supports the terrorist's goals even if they don't support their methods. I would really like to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm not seeing enough evidence to the contrary.

Here's a short list of condemnations of terrorism: http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

And then here's someone who speaks out against Saudi radicalism and all violence (my favorite Sheikh): www.amislam.com;
http://www.meforum.org/article/14

While perhaps cowardly,the attacks on America were wrong not because of who they were conducted upon, but because of why they were conducted-The basis for their aggression was invalid. They attacked us because they disagree with our beliefs,our economic structure and our cultural pressure in their homeland, not because we had first attacked their people.

That's not what the terrorists say. They always tie their butchery to direct US support for Israel and for oppressive middle eastern regimes. Are you saying that if their read of the facts were indeed correct, that Israel were the "first aggressor" against the Arab states, and that Israel was armed by the US, they would indeed have done a moral thing in attacking the World Trade Center? I think any system of thinking that allows for a "yes" answer to that question is seriously flawed, and that's the kind of thinking that fuels terrorism more than anything else.

I agree, btw, that it's interesting to see others views. I'm always happy to see a civil discussion of rights and justice. No matter what a person's beliefs, as long as he doesn't actively try to harm others...I say debate away.
 
Poodleshooter said:
If you can’t support the concept of at least some degree of group culpability, than you remove all social responsibility from individuals to control their fellow citizens actions.…
This fallacious assumption is exactly why strategic bombing failed psychologically. The proponents theorized that strategic bombing would demoralize the enemy’s civilian population, causing it to withdraw support from the war effort and possibly even to revolt against the enemy leadership. In fact, the bombing only hardened civilian resolve and caused even those who disagreed with the government to lend it their support.

Group culpability is a ticket to tyranny. Why do you think we suffer under all these foolish gun-control “laws”?


Poodleshooter said:
… that’s not a war they can win if we look at all of the numbers on paper. The reason they persist is that for some reason they don’t seem to know that they can’t win.…
You’re right. The Islamic terrorists think they can win because they believe God is on their side.

~G. Fink
 
This fallacious assumption is exactly why strategic bombing failed psychologically.

Failure depends on your definition of intended goal. According to politicians, including Churchill and Hitler, terror and intimidation were the main goals, and thus strategic bombing failed. Now if we are talking about damage and death instead, as per Harris's and LeMay's definition, then it was quite successful.

As doves bleed from their hearts about enemy civilians half a world away, we stride at rapid march towards the point at which what they fear will become an inevitability.

I second previous posters in their sentiment that we should just go ahead and launch now, preferrably fusion nukes only. Then move in and claim the oil. What euroes think is something of extreme indifference to me. While the loss of life is regrettable, I'd rather see their lives lost than ours.
 
I second previous posters in their sentiment that we should just go ahead and launch now, preferrably fusion nukes only. Then move in and claim the oil. What euroes think is something of extreme indifference to me. While the loss of life is regrettable, I'd rather see their lives lost than ours.


And this is scary, Unamerican, and utterly sick. It is precisely the terrorist's logic: Kill everyone who opposes you and take all for yourself. Who you kill doesn't matter, because it's "us versus them".

Of course, this is moot, because you are dreaming if you think you are going to save American lives by murdering (and it is murder by any definition) a few million people in the middle east. The entire world, including the 1.1 billion Muslims remaining and everyone else who already isn't happy with America, would rise up against US terrorism, alongside a significant number of Americans (those who still have enough moral sense to be offended by the idea of burning little girls and women in their homes.) Your idea of murder to take over the oil fields is a sure plan for not only turning the US into a country as murderous as any other in history, but also to destroy the United States we know it.

If you think that in this day and age you can slaughter millions without suffering a terrible fate....well, I sure hope and pray that you'll never have to find out just how sick that idea is.
 
There is the way the world ought to be, and there is the way the world is.

The reality is that we are looking at shrinking natural resources and insane expansion of world population. We need oil for our survival and for the continuation of our technologically advanced society, to buy us time to develop new technologies and energy sources that will end or drastically diminish our dependence on fossil fuels.

In any case, in the short run the resources will not be enough and there will be a great die-off. We can see that by the increased illegal immigration in all parts of the world, where desperate people try to leave the sinking ships of their own failing societies and collapsing ecosystems, and come to us. Just like in a shipwreck where overloading your own boat will kill you too, trying to save everybody in the third world will accomplish the same foolish end.

If there is any hope for preservation of civilization's accomplishments and the achievement of further greatness of mankind, it lies with us and the preservation and continuation of our own technological societies. Sacrificing us to save the others will only get most of us killed too, while the few survivors will be back to the Dark Ages, but without oil to get back to 20th c. tech and beyond.

Meanwhile we are happy to buy oil at reasonable prices from these third-world countries and sell them our industrial high-tech products. That is a fair and meaningful exchange. But, they broke the contract by terrorism, hateful ideologies, financing and supporting those among them who seek to destroy us. That marks the end of peaceful coexistence and the beginning of vigorous renegotiations.

If you think that in this day and age you can slaughter millions without suffering a terrible fate....well, I sure hope and pray that you'll never have to find out just how sick that idea is.

"Sick" is an ethical/aesthetical judgment call. Reality does not care about such things. Reality just is. It is governed by physical laws and mathematics, which are by nature indifferent to such judgments. Those who choose to make emotional decisions that ignore objective reality, never regret it because they do not live to.

The entire world, including the 1.1 billion Muslims remaining and everyone else who already isn't happy with America, would rise up against US terrorism

We have 3,000 missiles with multiple warheads. That is at least 10x more than enough for everybody. The year is 2005, not 1917. Nukes make numbers meaningless.

alongside a significant number of Americans (those who still have enough moral sense to be offended by the idea of burning little girls and women in their homes.)

That is ironic. You save them and they hate you for it. It is not the first time that hypocritic travesty would happen.

Your idea of murder to take over the oil fields is a sure plan for not only turning the US into a country as murderous as any other in history, but also to destroy the United States we know it.

Historically, we have been pretty "murderous" already. I prefer the term "practical". Also, "US as we know it" is rapidly unraveling as we speak, albeit for different reasons, the eternal law of change being not the least of them.
 
Last edited:
"Personally, I think that much of the middle eastern and African Islamic world supports the terrorist's goals even if they don't support their methods."

A fair number of Americans too from what I see.

John
 
Eschatological conversations can be fun.

I remain hopeful, by practice, but fear, along with Cannoneer, that the globe will experience a massive "pruning."

You don't need to nuke huge masses of people: interruption of their infrastructure and access to vital stuffs would set the terminal process in motion.

There will be people in our society who will perish of guilt if The Worst Happens, but most will find ways to rationalize slaughter in the name of survival and most will, I'm afraid, feel more relieved than guilty. Meet the human race, awful and glorious.
 
CAnnoneer,

"Sick" is an ethical/aesthetical judgment call. Reality does not care about such things. Reality just is. It is governed by physical laws and mathematics, which are by nature indifferent to such judgments. Those who choose to make emotional decisions that ignore objective reality, never regret it because they do not live to.

If everything is governed by mathematics, then how can you choose one path over another? If you can choose anything, you can choose not to kill millions of people intentionally. If you are a determinist, then you can't hold any terrorist culpable for the things he does, because he's just doing what he's "mathematically determined to do." All of this long resources talk is basically a rehash of the social-darwinist/Neo-Nazi case for killing off all the inferior races. It is 100 percent bunk, and it does not justify murdering millions.

We have 3,000 missiles with multiple warheads. That is at least 10x more than enough for everybody. The year is 2005, not 1917. Nukes make numbers meaningless.

You can't inhabit a world that has had 70 percent of its land mass nuked. That's common sense. Nuking 1.2 billion people will destroy the environment, tar the US's name for the rest of time, and inspire EVERYONE, Muslim or not, to destroy the US in the name of stopping the most murderous regime in history.

You are, in sum, ignoring reality if you think that murdering a billion people will go unnoticed and do no damage to the world's economy. Murder on that scale will land us exactly where it landed the Nazis: sitting in someone else's courtrooms trying to explain to the world how we became so incredibly insane.

You don't need to nuke huge masses of people: interruption of their infrastructure and access to vital stuffs would set the terminal process in motion.

There will be people in our society who will perish of guilt if The Worst Happens, but most will find ways to rationalize slaughter in the name of survival and most will, I'm afraid, feel more relieved than guilty. Meet the human race, awful and glorious.

Which side are you on? Rationalizing slaughter, like a terrorist?

You are failing to consider group number three: Those who recognize murder and genocide as evil, and righteously fight against the murder-State.

"Interruption of infrastructure" is not going to go unnoticed either. The world already is convinced that America is an evil empire. It won't take much to convince them to go from hating but doing business to actively working against our existence in every way. China, Europe, Russia, India...you name the country, it's going to have an active part in destroying the US if we become a murder-state instead of remaining true to the principles of American freedom. And they'd be right to do it; no Government has a right to exist that threatens the lives of millions of people in the name of "national interest" or "survival of the fittest." We proved that in 1945, and I'm sad to see that some of my fellow Americans seem to have forgotten.
 
Which side are you on? Rationalizing slaughter, like a terrorist?

Uh, no, I'm for self-defense and, beyond that, for the defense of the values that I believe in. I prefer peaceful solutions. But... If that requires annihilation of enemies sworn to destroy my world, then so be it. I have yet to find myself at oh dark hundred bolt upright, in a cold sweat, having nightmares about what we did to the Nazis. I may lack sensitivity, I don't know, but there it is.

Restraint is required on both sides. See my earlier post about which is more "holy," Mecca or the Library of Congress, Medina or the NYC Metropolitan Museum of Art. You can probably, by now, figure out my answer to that question. It shouldn't have to come to an either/or, it really shouldn't, and we hope it won't, but history is full of what some people can needless slaughter or what others call collateral damage in the advance of civilization.
 
The world already is convinced that America is an evil empire. It won't take much to convince them to go from hating but doing business to actively working against our existence in every way. China, Europe, Russia, India...you name the country, it's going to have an active part in destroying the US if we become a murder-state instead of remaining true to the principles of American freedom. And they'd be right to do it; no Government has a right to exist that threatens the lives of millions of people in the name of "national interest" or "survival of the fittest." We proved that in 1945, and I'm sad to see that some of my fellow Americans seem to have forgotten.

Wow.

What can I say?

You think WE are the "murder-state?" Please, do a quick fly-over of this planet.

Murder on that scale will land us exactly where it landed the Nazis: sitting in someone else's courtrooms trying to explain to the world how we became so incredibly insane.

This is the wet dream of every angry Leftist on this globe: Americans in front of a tribunal of the People's Justice, being tried for war crimes. Don't count on it.
 
Longeyes,

You need to reread my posts.

You think WE are the "murder-state?" Please, do a quick fly-over of this planet.

No, I do not. I am saying that what makes us NOT a murder state is the fact that we aren't trying to kill millions of people. So if we go ahead and do what you and CAnnoneer are proposing, yes, we will be a murder state.


This is the wet dream of every angry Leftist on this globe: Americans in front of a tribunal of the People's Justice, being tried for war crimes. Don't count on it.

It is, and I sure hate the idea, not being a leftist myself. But guess what? If the US goes on a mission to kill millions of people, you can be assured that it will happen. Turn your government into a murder state, and you can count on the fact that the rest of the world will fight it.

In sum, what I'm saying is this: If you want to hand the angry leftists and all those who want to see the US fall their dreams, just support murder...it will convince the entire world that the anti-American radicals were right about us, and give them justification to attack.

And I'll repeat: If we do in fact start bombing the middle east just to kill people off, these other countries and angry leftists will be Right as Rain to tear America apart. See my last post:
no Government has a right to exist that threatens the lives of millions of people in the name of "national interest" or "survival of the fittest." We proved that in 1945, and I'm sad to see that some of my fellow Americans seem to have forgotten.
 
Here's an interesting question, somewhat unrelated:

Hypothetically, if the U.S. were to begin exterminating people on a Holocaust-type scale, would the rest of the world have the balls to try to stop us? If so, would they succeed?
 
Yes to both questions. We're already dangerously close to writing checks with our collective mouths that our collective butts can't cash. China and Russia would jump on the opportunity quicker than a buzzard on fresh roadkill...
Biker
 
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