I guess watching Full Metal Jacket 3 times yesterday got to me....

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boredelmo

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Called up my local Marine Recruiter. He only deals in the Officers department so im applying for that. Two summers of 6 weeks worth of training because im a college student. Then i get to decide if im going to join or not.

He mentioned that ill learn how to disassemble a standard issue M16.

Kinda just to keep it firearms related, but also as an actual question:

What are the main differences between the M16 and my AR15? If i practice with my ar15, would that help?

Also as a side question: What branch of the military is best suited to satisfy the needs of a firearm collector? What about other things like Coast Guard, and Military Police?
 
As an officer you will get BAH and live off base, if you choose. Your domicile, your rules. On base you have to register stuff and sometimes put it in the armory. If you get deployed away from your house then you have to store everything.

IIRC, below 05 you have to qual and that becomes part of your FitRep. Could help with promotions to be profficient with the rifle.

AR15: Kinda fun switch
M16A2: Very fun switch
 
No disrespect to others... but sh*t flows downhill... and higher up the pyramid you are the better it is.

Good luck... and do try and serve it will change your life.
 
Good luck. Keep the "option" open to leave in case circumstances change in the next two years. It sounds like you are being put into Platoon Leaders Course (PLC) where, if you decide to go for it, you will still need another six months of The Basic School before you even get to go to your MOS (job) school.

The USMC was the best learning experience I have had (1990-95), though I was enlisted. I would say you should think hard about WHY you are joining because it will be a lifelong commitment (even if you only do a few years active duty - you will be changed forever - usually for the better, but not always). When you figure out why it is called "The Suck," you will need to be sure you still want to be there.

As far as M16A4 vs. AR15:

The basic difference is that the A4 has the three-round burst. Unless things have changed, the USMC doctrine is to use aimed, semi-auto fire in combat, unless you are trying to suppress an enemy attack or establish a base of fire to allow others to move in on the objective, at which point the burst is an option.

Since semi-auto is (I guess still) the preferred shooting method, getting good with the AR15 can only help.

Also, the A4 has a 20" government profile barrel with the Knights Armament Corp. railed forearm, with A2-type solid buttstock and flattop upper receiver. Most Marines seem to get issued either the ACOG or an EOTECH. If your AR15 is a close clone to this, all the better, though I have seen photos by embedded journalists of some Marines with the M4.

Other service options:
The Coast Guard has a "Port Security" MOS that works basically like the Marine Security Forces. These guys guard port facilities, ride around in patrol boats, do perimeter foot patrols, hostile boat boardings, machine guns, etc. A reserve unit tried to recruit me, that's how I know.
 
Disconnector, sear and hammer are different as is the firing pin.

AR-15 familiarity/knowledge will be fine as you'll not be required (much less allowed) to dive into the trigger housing.
 
What branch of the military is best suited to satisfy the needs of a firearm collector?

None are. Get an internship at a museum or historical society.

Not to disway you, but you will likely not get the broad exposure you're looking for in the armed forces. If you get into an MOS as an armorer you will likely learn a detailed amount about whatever you are tasked to work on. More likely than not, you'll deal with trying to hold a bunch of crap together that was built by the lowest bidder.
 
Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how watching the first half of FMJ would make you WANT to join the Marines. I know R. Lee is entertaining, but only from THIS side of the screen.

Also, remember the "not always" caveat in K-Romulus' post. I know a classmate of mine who went into the Marines and came out a genuine psych case. They want to break you and remake you, but sometimes they don't quite get the "remaking" part down. Do not go in expecting them to make you a better person or a "man" or whatever. From all I've seen, you'll get the most out of it if you have your head screwed on right and your stuff together PRIOR to going in. The folks I've known who went in mature and squared away came out doubly so. But I don't think they're going to fix anyone's personal problems.
 
I was Army, and a long time ago, so this may be dated or even wrong, but the College program for the USMC used to be called Platoon Leaders program. It turns out outstanding infantry leaders. I mean outstanding! If you are not sure that being a ground pounder is for you, you might check out the Army ROTC programs — they have a two-year program where, like the PLC, you go to summer camp, but the range of officer specialties is larger in the Army. Infantry is there ("Follow Me"), but so is Artillery, Armor, MPs, all the other stuff. Plus, if you're qualified and selected for the program (Marine or Army) they'll help pay for your college, thereby reducing the educational loans you have to pay off after college. Plus, you will be defending your Country and maybe it ain't popular all the time, but it is still the greatest rush of all. So it can either be Semper Fi or This We'll Defend — you pick.
 
Either the Army or USMC are the best to for firearms. The other services just don't use them much in regular units. You will certainly see more action and weapons training if you join the Army especially if you go combat arms but nowadays sometimes even if you don't. Most of the best advance training is with the Army or at Army schools (BWE Scuba School is an Army school).

The AR-15 is a or M4 clone can be had at near exact specs other than the select fire. For a small fortune full auto M16s can be had as well, but I have not seen a 3 round burst out there. If you join as an officer this will be your primary weapon for most of your career. You can never be too well trained or prepared so I suggest going ahead and getting the rifle if you can afford it. As an officer your job will not revolve so much around pulling triggers as it will around taking objectives and clearing sectors. Most of the officers and senior NCOs in combat arms that I know of have of liking for weaponry of all types. Most Army and USMC bases have gun clubs with private ranges where you can shoot for dirt cheap or free and sometimes buy weapons for low prices and no tax.
 
Just don't go and practice TOO much on an AR-15 before you go. Your PMI will show you how to shoot the M16, don't worry. :)

IIRC, there is/was PLC-ground, PLC-air, and PLC-law (for the JAG wannabees).
 
Cosmoline
Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how watching the first half of FMJ would make you WANT to join the Marines. I know R. Lee is entertaining, but only from THIS side of the screen.

FMJ is the closest movie I've seen to what the USMC really is and the movie isn't even close.

In 1956 I went through Parris Island. R.Lee's yelling is somewhat accurate but the physical punishment was extreme in earlier bootcamp. "Thumping" was the name for beating you to the ground. Nothing like a hit in the gut to get your immediate attention.


The common punishments were,

Double-timing while holding your M1 over your head,

"Elbows and toes", where you got down like doing pushups except your fingers are locked behind your neck and you are supporting yourself on your elbows and toes.

Arms outstretched with your M1 on your finger.

Arms overhead holding the M1.

Regular push-ups.

Standing at attention for hours (my favorite because I found that I could go to sleep with my eyes open and rest)

Platoon punishments were continued until someone dropped and they were usually thumped.

The only thing I feared was "dry shaving".
With a bucket over your head you double-timed in place while singing the Marine Corps hymn. While doing this you dry shaved with a double edge razor. When you were done you had cut the hell out of yourself.
Thankfully I never had to do that.

I'm certain that these punishments are no longer done.


While my platoon was at the rifle range, about a week qualification, 500 yards, a DI marched his platoon into the swamp at night.
They were making the march at night with full packs. A number of them died.

-------------------------
"The event
On April 8, 1956, at 20:00 hours, Staff Sergeant Matthew McKeon, a decorated veteran of World War II and the Korean War, led Platoon 71, his assigned platoon of 74 recruits, on an extra exercise to Ribbon Creek as a disciplinary measure. McKeon led the platoon toward a swampy tidal creek on Parris Island, South Carolina, near the eponymous Marine Corps recruit depot, and, upon arrival 45 minutes later, McKeon jumped into the creek and ordered the platoon to follow. From that point forward, the platoon marched along the creek bed. However, some of the young men could not swim and the platoon marched into deep water. There was a sudden burst of screaming and panic and then a mad dash for the shore. After a short while, it was noticed that some recruits were missing. Six men had drowned.


[edit] Investigation
Staff Sergeant McKeon was brought to a court of inquiry directly on the following day. At first, he was classified mentally and "emotionally stable" and "a mature, stable appearing career Marine." The court recognized that the detailed directives regarding and prohibiting certain Marine training methods were "correct and adequate," and that McKeon had launched an unnecessary and unauthorized disciplinary action. It was also found that he had been drunk and McKeon was recommended to be court-martialled. McKeon himself claimed he held a minor degree of guilt, and suggested only being "part of the system," and that the supervision regarding basic training should be restructured.


[edit] Consequences
Staff Sergeant McKeon was brought to court martial amidst a howl of public condemnation about the "brutality" of Marine Corps training. Many Marines came to McKeon's defense pointing out such training was necessary for survival in combat. McKeon's supervisor, Staff Sergeant E. H. Huff, testified in his defense. He called McKeon an outstanding drill instructor and said that night marches were very common on Parris Island. He said the discipline in the platoon was so poor that he would have taken the recruits on the march himself if he had the time.

McKeon was defended by colorful civilian attorney Emile Zola Berman. Berman would later go on to defend Sirhan Sirhan. Berman put on a vigorous defense that swayed both the court and public opinion. Marine Corps Commandant General Randolph Pate testified. One reporter pointed out this was like "calling J. Edgar Hoover to testify about a problem within the FBI". The trial's most dramatic moment, however, was the arrival of General Lewis "Chesty" Puller, the most decorated Marine in the history of the Corps. Berman called Puller to testify about training methods. Although having some very harsh private words for McKeon, Puller called the incident in Ribbon Creek "a deplorable accident", but one that did not warrant court martial. He said that discipline was the most important factor in military training. He quoted Napoleon in saying that an army becomes a "mob" without it. He mentioned his experiences in the Korean War and one of the reasons troops failed was because of lack of night training. General Puller felt that the press had blown this incident out of proportion because of prejudice they had against the Marine Corps. He mentioned a similar accident at an Army post where ten soldiers drowned and pointed out that none of their superiors had been charged and that it had never made headlines the way Ribbon Creek did.

In the end, McKeon was acquitted of manslaughter and oppression of troops. He was found guilty of negligent homicide and drinking on duty. The sentence was a $270 fine, nine months of confinement at hard labor, rank reduced to private and a bad conduct discharge.

The Secretary of the Navy later reduced the sentence to three months in the brig, reduction to private with no discharge and no fine. McKeon went back on active duty. He was never able to regain his former rank and was forced to medically retire from the Marine Corps with a back injury in 1959. He worked as an inspector of standards for his home state of Massachusetts. In a 1970 Newsweek interview, he talked of his lifelong burden of guilt and how he prayed to God every day to keep the boys in his safekeeping and for forgiveness. Matthew McKeon died on November 11, 2003 at the age of 79."
------------------------
Staff Sergeant Matthew McKeon took the fall but everyone in the chain of command knew how tough the training was. It's the Marine Corps, it's supposed to be tough.



what would make you WANT to join the Marines

That's one of those questions, if you don't know why, then I can't tell you.

I was a Sergeant in the Marine Corps for eight years and the next five years a Army Warrant Officer helicopter pilot. Being a Army pilot and Officer was fantastic but I am still a USMC Sergeant at heart.
 
THE BOYS OF IWO JIMA

Jeanne Nichols is hired each year to go to Washington, DC, with the eighth grade class from Clinton, Wisconsin where she grew up, to videotape their trip. This is Jeanne's first person report of the trip made in the Fall of 2000.

"I greatly enjoy visiting our nation's capitol. Each year I take some special memories back with me. This fall's trip was especially memorable. On the last night of our trip we stopped at the Iwo Jima Memorial. This memorial is the largest bronze statue in the world and depicts one of the most famous photographs in history - that of the five Marines, and one Navy Corpsman on duty with the Marines, raising the American flag at the top of a rocky hill on the island of Iwo Jima, Japan, during WW-II. Over one hundred students and chaperons piled off the buses and headed towards the memorial.

"I noticed a solitary figure at the base of the statue, and as I got closer he asked, 'Where are you guys from?' I told him that we were from Wisconsin. 'Hey, I'm a cheese-head, too! Come gather around Cheeseheads, and I will tell you a story.' (James Bradley just happened to be in Washington, DC, to speak at the memorial the following day. He was there that night to say good night to his dad, who has since passed away. He was just about to leave when he saw the buses pull up. I videotaped him as he spoke to the group, and received his permission to share what he said from my videotape. It is one thing to tour the incredible monuments filled with history in Washington, DC, but it is quite another to get the kind of insight the group received that night. When all had gathered around he reverently began to speak. Here are his words that night.)

"My name is James Bradley and I'm from Antigo, Wisconsin. My dad is on that statue, and I just wrote a book called Flags of Our Fathers which is #5 on the New York Times Best Seller list right now. It is the story of the six boys you see behind me. Six boys raised the flag. (EOB's NOTE: Flags of Our Fathers is an outstanding book. Recommend it.)

"The first guy putting the pole in the ground is Harlon Block. Harlon was an all-state football player from Weslaco, Texas. He enlisted in the Marine Corps with all the senior members of his football team. They were off to play another type of game. A game called "War." But it didn't turn out to be a game. Harlon, at the age of 21, died with his intestines in his hands. I don't say that to gross you out, I say that because there are generals who stand in front of this statue and talk about the glory of war. You guys need to know that most of the boys on Iwo Jima were 17, 18, and 19 years old.

(He pointed to the statue) "You see this next guy? That's Rene Gagnon from New Hampshire.

If you took Rene's helmet off at the moment this photo was taken, and looked in the webbing of that helmet, you would find a photograph...a photograph of his girlfriend. Rene put that in there for protection, because he was scared. He was 18 years old. Boys won the battle of Iwo Jima. Boys. Not old men.

"The next guy here, the third guy in this tableau, was Sergeant Mike Strank. Mike is my hero. He was the hero of all these guys. They called him the "old man" because he was so old. He was already 24. Mike would motivate his boys in training camp, he didn't say 'Let's go kill some Japanese,' or 'Let's die for our country.' He knew he was talking to little boys. Instead he would say, 'You do what I say, and I'll get you home to your mothers.'

"The last guy on this side of the statue is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from Arizona. Ira Hayes walked off Iwo Jima. He went into the White House with my dad. President Truman told him, 'You're a hero.' He told reporters, 'How can I feel like a hero when 250 of my buddies hit the island with me and only 27 of us walked off alive?' So you take your class at school. 250 of you spending a year together having fun, doing everything together. Then all 250 of you hit the beach, but only 27 of your classmates walk off alive! That was Ira Hayes. He had images of horror in his mind. Ira Hayes died dead drunk, face down at the age of 32...ten years after this picture was taken.

"The next guy, going around the statue, is Franklin Sousley from Hilltop, Kentucky. A fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. His best friend, who is now 70, told me, 'Yeah, you know, we took two cows up on the porch of the Hilltop General Store. Then we strung wire across the stairs so the cows couldn't get down. Then we fed them Epson salts. Those cows crapped all night.' Yes, he was a fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. Franklin died on Iwo Jima at the age of 19. When the telegram came to tell his mother that he was dead, it went to the Hilltop General Store. A barefoot boy ran that telegram up to his mother's farm. The neighbors could hear her scream all night and into the morning. The neighbors lived a quarter of a mile away.

"The next guy, as we continue to go around the statue is my dad, John Bradley from Antigo, Wisconsin where I was raised. My dad lived until 1994, but he would never give interviews. When Walter Cronkite's producers, or the New York Times would call, we were trained as little kids to say, 'No, I'm sorry sir, my dad's not here. He is in Canada fishing. No, there is no phone there, sir. No, we don't know when he is coming back.' My dad never fished or even went to Canada. Usually, he was sitting there right at the table eating his Campbell's soup. But we had to tell the press that he was out fishing. He didn't want to talk to the press. You see, my dad didn't see himself as a hero. Everyone thinks these guys are heroes, 'cause they are in a photo and a monument. My dad knew better. He was a medic. John Bradley from Wisconsin was a caregiver. In Iwo Jima he probably held over 200 boys as they died. And when boys died in Iwo Jima, they writhed and screamed in pain. When I was a little boy, my third grade teacher told me that my dad was a hero. When I went home and told my dad that, he looked at me and said, 'I want you always to remember that the heroes of Iwo Jima are the guys who did not come back. Did NOT come back.'

"So that's the story about six nice young boys. Three died on Iwo Jima, and three came back as national heroes. Overall 7000 boys died on Iwo Jima in the worst battle in the history of the Marine Corps. My voice is giving out, so I will end here. Thank you for your time."

"Suddenly, the monument wasn't just a big old piece of metal with a flag sticking out of the top. It came to life before our eyes with the heartfelt words of a son who did indeed have a father who was a hero. Maybe not a hero for the reasons most people would believe, but a hero none-the-less.

"We need to remember that God created this vast and glorious world for us to live in, freely, but also at great sacrifice. Let us never forget the Revolutionary War to the Gulf War, and all the wars in-between, that sacrifice was made for our freedom. Remember to pray praises for this great country of ours and also pray for those still in murderous unrest around the world. STOP, and thank God for being alive at someone else's sacrifice. God Bless!
 
Whether it was punishment or not, that doesn't strike me as a bad exercise at all. It's just the sort of thing they might have to do in real life--suddenly change plans and get out of Dodge any way possible. There won't always be time to have a pontoon bridge put up, and going by road may be right out. Traveling in creek beds is a time honored means of skipping town. The sound of the water covers your own noise, and the water helps erase tracks. It certainly makes more practical sense than trying to shave yourself while jumping around singing songs.

However, some of the young men could not swim

That's a big part of the problem right there. Back in those days a lot of people didn't know how to swim. It should have been included in basic training, as I believe it has been in the Navy and CG for a long time. Think of it--a MARINE who can't SWIM! There's a bit of a problem there, considering the wide array of exceptionally moist places they've been known to visit. It's almost impossible to imagine not being able to swim in this day and age, but for a long long time any substantial body of water was a death trap to most folk. I trust nowadays it's a requirement?
 
Disconnector, sear and hammer are different as is the firing pin.

Burst Cam Spring
AUTO Sear Pin
Burst Cam
Burst Hammer Spring
Burst Disconnector (one Hook)
Burst Trigger Spring
Burst Trigger
Burst Hammer
Burst Diconnector (Two Hook)
Burst Disconnector Spring
Burst AUTO Sear
AUTO Sear Pin
Also Bolt carrier

Drop in Auto Sear:
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

Bolt Carrier:
http://www.sogarmory.com/ProductDtls.aspx?id=101785

SWD Auto Disconnector or Auto Connector:
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html

Installing in a AR-15 is a NO, NO as it will then be a fully automatic M-16
 
The truth is, the military is not really a great place to learn about any rifle.

While the Marine Corps DOES have by far the best marksmanship program in the armed forces, it is pretty much limited to one rifle, one round, and one kind of shooting. (Unless you work your way into elite forces, competition teams, etc.) Military arms maintenence and repair training is limited only to the weapons employed by the force, and are not a substitute for becoming a gunsmith. (Learning how to clean bolt faces and switch out a few parts involving a tie wire does NOT make one a gunsmith.) Military training and handling is more focused on baby-sitting than riflemanship. They are so worried about people blowing their toes off, they won't treat them like armed professionals. They rarely (if ever) handle live ammo, and the result is complacency which too often results in accidents during war. This weekend, I am doing MOUT training, during which I will be reminding my squad that even when you are in war, the four rules apply. (They always forget, and it seems like I am the only one who reminds them.)

But the biggest problem I have with firearms and the military is that even in your off time, your rights are restricted. I currently live on what used to be the housing for Fort Ord, while I am attending language school in Monterey. I was advised that the first thing I would have to do when I reported was REGISTER my guns at the post police station. Furthermore, my UT permit is not valid in CA, and my SKS is banned completely. I left all my guns home, and now I have a raccoon living under my house, a mountain lion living in the pines near my kid's school, and two soldiers in downtown Monterey were robbed at gunpoint a few weekends ago.

I won't even get a chance to qualify with my issue rifle this year.
 
MOS 2102 and 2120 are Warrant/LDO only jobs. Those are the third and fourth best gun jobs (supervising fixing guns)

Second best job is range officer, 9925, a warrant who has been a PMI and small arms instructor while enlisted.

The best job is 0306, the gunner, who is the top of the heap for infantry weapons, and is a warrant with LONG service in the 03 field.

As a regular O you can 'supervise' them but regular Os don't really get to play.
 
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