I had a epiphany. Vickers vs. Limited Vickers

[Correia]

In October I will have been shooting IDPA for 2 years. During that time my skills have gotten much better. In my first few months I would finish in the lower half. For the last year I’ve been in the top half, and lately I’m usually in the top four or five shooters. (I’m talking overall, not by division or classification). My highest finishes have been 2nd or 3rd overall, and I’ve done that several times this year, against some really good shooters.

So I was pretty excited to shoot the classifier this year. The first time I shot it I came in as a CDP Sharpshooter. I just barely squeaked in above Marksman. This was when I had just barely started IDPA. So I figured since I had improved so much during the last couple of years I would easily be able to make Expert.

Ha! I suck at the classifier!

I went to a classifier a couple of months ago. Tanked it. Couldn’t buy a headshot. Down tons of points in stage 1. Sharpshooter.

Ok, month later. Practiced up on headshots. Shot another classifier at a different club. Dropped 41 points on Stage 3. Ouch. Sharpshooter.

All right. One more classifier before the state match in September. Last Saturday. Local club. Beautiful day. Sun is shining. Birds are singing. Dropped one of my one handed shots. Dropped 18 points on one target in stage 3. (other 2 looked ok). Still a Sharpshooter. Missed it by 8 seconds.

Now I’m trying to figure out what my weakness is. How can I go to a regular IDPA match and do really well? Yet go to the classifier and suck beyond all comprehension?

The light bulb comes on. Limited Vickers.

I have come to realize that I have one thing that I’m really good at. Calling my shots. I usually know exactly where my sights were on the target when the hammer fell. So if I jerked, or twitched, or pulled a shot, I know it. It is pretty rare for me to walk up to a target to score it and be surprised by a missed shot. When I miss, I know it.

Since most IDPA stages are Vickers count, I’ve become very good at cranking off an extra shot when I know that my previous one wasn’t a good hit. My strength is speed. Accuracy is my weakness. I know it, and I know I need to work on it.

So now I get to the classifier. I jerk the trigger, pull a shot, I know it as soon as it happens. I know I missed, but I keep moving. Because I know I missed, my brain processes this information and it makes me slower than I should be. Damn you Limited Vickers!

So now I’m going to concentrate on accuracy, not speed.

Well, it’s a slow day at work. Just thought I would share. I needed to vent.

 

[mpthole]

Interesting points Larry. While I'm nowhere near the top with the folks I shoot with, I've noticed that I tend to shoot better in the matches than on the classifier too. Since taking Burkett's class I'm working on both my speed and accuracy a lot. I'm concentrating on all of the basics: stance, draw, grip, sites and trigger control - trying to work it all into one smooth flow. In practice I try to start slow and concentrate on accuracy, then bring up my speed until accuracy tapers off.

I'm so close to making sharpshooter that I'm really thining I can pull it off at this falls classifier. So my real goal is to make expert by the end of 2004.

 

[Steve Smith]

Ok, so the classifier tabulates your score differently than the matches do? Who thought of that?

 

[Correia]

Well Steve, it is a little more complicated than that.

Vickers scoring means that you can shoot as much as you want, just that a certain number of hits are required on the target. So if you need 2 hits, but you shoot the target 3 times, you count the best 2.

Limited Vickers means that if the target requires 2 hits, you get 2 shots. So if you shoot the target 3 times, you just screwed up. In that case you get a procedural penalty and then you count the best 2. If you fire the neccesary 2, but you miss 1, then you do not get a make up shot.

Now Vickers and LV can both be used in a regular match. However it seems like regular old Vickers is much more popular to course designers, and you don't really shoot a lot of LV. In my club anyway, I don't know about the rest of you. When I design 3 gun stages, I hardly ever use LV, unless it is to speed up a stage to prevent bottlenecks.

The classifier was designed as a set of 3 stages. 30 shots each. All limited Vickers. The idea was to keep the COF the same for everybody. So I can see the logic of using LV. But I still suck at it.

The other way you can move up in the classification is if A. Win your division at a sanctioned match over a certain number of other competitors. B. The club president decides you are sandbagging and need to move up a class to keep the competition fair. You really don't really see B very often. Though our club president is probably going to do it to me. I promise I'm not sandbagging, I just keep screwing up the classifier.

 

[Steve Smith]

I shot IDPA for quite some time, but avoided shooting the classifier because it took away from match time. I was familiar with Vickers, but never knew the classifier used LV.

 

[John Forsyth]

You shot IDPA quite some time, your words, and you avoided the classifier. So, how did you ever get classified? You never shot a single sanctioned match?

Join the crowd correia. I drop too many points on stage 3 myself. I have not broke into expert because of it. :banghead:

 

[Steve Smith]

Just shot a bunch of local IDPA matches. Never got interested in going further. Waiting and driving for 5+ hours to shoot for <2 minutes lost its appeal really quickly.

 

[Correia]

John, stage 3 is a pain. I have to share another painful thing about stage 3. One day the match director just threw stage 3 into a regular match by itself. (for those that don't know stage 3 is the killer. It is the one with the 20 yard shooting from behind a barricade, tac reloads, etc.)

I was having a really good day. Didn't think anything of it. Shot it super good. Dropped something like 5 points total. Times were all super quick. Hmpff... Why can't I do that when it matters? Maybe I psych myself out too much?

On a side note, I got to watch THR member JohnL shoot it the other day. I believe his total for #3 was something like a 35 including points down and everything. It was awesome. But he is already Master class.

Steve, if I had to drive 5 hours, I wouldn't do it either. That sucks. I've got 2 clubs in 35-45 minutes.

 

[John Forsyth]

I can see that.

 

[lycanthrope]

Shoot groups at 20 yards. Shoot more groups.

Get at timer and set par time where you can go zero down with 5 shots at 20 yards.

Then start reducing par time......just a little. Go faster, find what works.

Helped a lot for me.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Accuracy,power and speed are all equally important. vickers stresses accuracy too much, in my honest opinion. there are other ways to score a stage, and they all have their place.

 

[Brian D.]

John F...

I'm of the same kinda mindset as Steve S. on this subject. The classifier, IMO, simply put, takes too damn long. It got to where I'd just go to the other matches and skip those. Seems to me, and at least a few others, that a 50 or so round COF would get the job done as well. Oh well, moot point now, I let my membership lapse, and don't miss IDPA all that much anyhow. Luckily, I can get to my club during the week and have one pit all to myself. And, I shoot the Paladin system with Rick Miller and some other friends 30-40 Sundays a year. I think Paladin makes way more sense than IDPA scoring, and it's simpler to boot.

 

[Owen]

Paladin Scoring?

owen

 

[Brian D.]

owen...

Read Rick Miller's Tactics column in Combat Handguns sometime. It will explain all...and anybody else who is curious, give it a whirl if you like the looks of what we do. Now, where were we?

 

[kotengu]

"Because I know I missed, my brain processes this information and it makes me slower than I should "

This sounds a lot like what we talked about forever ago - you know, screwing up on a stage, then completely blowing the next two stages because you're still kicking yourself for screwing up the first. It just happens in a couple seconds in this case.

I, too, have your "problem" with calling my shots fairly well - a lot of Highpower shooting did that for me. I'm also struggling with trying to raise my speed without my accuracy suffering. If I take my time I can hit just about anything I want with a pistol within about 50yds, but when I start to rush it everything goes to ****. I recently acquired a timer, and along with confirming how pitifully slow I really am, using it and gradually decreasing the par time (as stated above) has helped me a LOT even in the past couple weeks.

Too bad the 3-gun State Championship is this weekend - I could use some more work with the timer

On the "mental" side of kicking yourself while you're down - I don't know what to tell you. Just try and remember "there is only one shot ", and I'll try and do the same......

Matt

 

[Steve Smith]

I wonder if Lanny Basham's book With Winning in Mind would be as felpful for you guys as it is for target shooters.

 

[Dr.Who]

And then you can go out and shoot SSP class and ESP class qualifier. Be within 2.5 seconds of each other with all points added (same Day, same gun, G17) and be ranked Sharpshooter in SSP and Marksman in ESP. Oh well, Now I have to move up ESP, CDP, SSR to Sharpshooter from Marksman. The best part, it requires more shooting.

I aggree, Stage 3 requires alot of attention and concentration... Go slow to be fast.

 

[Prodigalshooter]

I too have problems with the Classifier, I think it's mostly mental for me, cause I do very similar stages in regular matches with good results. I am stuck in Marksman in all 4 divisions , right now I'm concentrating on CDP. I usually drop shots on the last stage, cause I start slow and deliberate and speed up without realizing it. Then, as I am clearing my pistol and replaying the stage in my mind, I see that again I missed really fast!:banghead:
Heck, I shoot a classifier every month, you'd think that would be pretty good practice, but apparently, not enough for me!
Not complaining though (well, not too much) cause it's still about the most fun you can have with your clothes on.