Where do you store your firearms when you are camping, hunting, traveling, or going to the range? Do you consider it to be criminal to store a firearm in a car? What about under your bed at home? At what point to you feel it is secure enough that the blame shifts from the lawful owner to the criminal thief?
I had a firearm stolen
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Ledgehammer
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Carry is one thing. Sounds like she just leaves it in her car. I feel your pain though, I have to check my wife's car every night to make sure she locked it. I can't rely on her to be consistent so I just do it for her. Women...
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
K1500, we sometimes have this go-round when the discussion of truck- and car-guns comes up, but it isn't limited to that topic.
There are nuances which go far beyond the black and white. There is a desire among many to cast BLAME. Or said another way, GUILT. Who is GUILTY here? The criminal or the vehicle owner? Choose one. They can't both be the guilty party, right?
The other nuance is the question of reasonable responsibility. If you know that cars and trucks are broken into very, very often (FAAAAR more often than homes), and that they are often left unattended in less than secure circumstances, it becomes prudent to take steps not to leave potentially deadly weapons within.
You are not the GUILTY party if your car is broken into and your gun is stolen. However, you had all the reason in the world to expect that outcome would eventually befall it and you could have done very simple and non-intrusive things to utterly prevent that from happening.
Blame...guilt...responsibility. A complicated set of related ideas.
To give the analogy of another topic, when we discuss self-defense we quote the master who says, "Don't go stupid places, and do stupid things, with stupid people." But doesn't that infringe my right to freedom of movement, and assembly, and the pursuit of happiness?
Truth is, you have the RIGHT to walk down Gratiot St. in Detroit at 11:30 pm in nothing but a pink tu-tu, wearing 12 Rolexes on each arm and singing Klan rally songs. But nothing on earth makes you immune from the consequences of those choices. No one has the RIGHT to attack you. But they probably will anyway and you'd be foolish not to expect it.
What you have the RIGHT to do and what is WISE to do are not necessarily the same thing. Same with leaving guns in vehicles. You can say it's your right. You can say the criminal has NO right to break in and take your belongings. Of course that's true. But a gun left in a car (in all but a few specific instances) is a gun that -- chances are -- will be stolen eventually. You can stand on your right or you can use wisdom.
There are nuances which go far beyond the black and white. There is a desire among many to cast BLAME. Or said another way, GUILT. Who is GUILTY here? The criminal or the vehicle owner? Choose one. They can't both be the guilty party, right?
The other nuance is the question of reasonable responsibility. If you know that cars and trucks are broken into very, very often (FAAAAR more often than homes), and that they are often left unattended in less than secure circumstances, it becomes prudent to take steps not to leave potentially deadly weapons within.
You are not the GUILTY party if your car is broken into and your gun is stolen. However, you had all the reason in the world to expect that outcome would eventually befall it and you could have done very simple and non-intrusive things to utterly prevent that from happening.
Blame...guilt...responsibility. A complicated set of related ideas.
To give the analogy of another topic, when we discuss self-defense we quote the master who says, "Don't go stupid places, and do stupid things, with stupid people." But doesn't that infringe my right to freedom of movement, and assembly, and the pursuit of happiness?
Truth is, you have the RIGHT to walk down Gratiot St. in Detroit at 11:30 pm in nothing but a pink tu-tu, wearing 12 Rolexes on each arm and singing Klan rally songs. But nothing on earth makes you immune from the consequences of those choices. No one has the RIGHT to attack you. But they probably will anyway and you'd be foolish not to expect it.
What you have the RIGHT to do and what is WISE to do are not necessarily the same thing. Same with leaving guns in vehicles. You can say it's your right. You can say the criminal has NO right to break in and take your belongings. Of course that's true. But a gun left in a car (in all but a few specific instances) is a gun that -- chances are -- will be stolen eventually. You can stand on your right or you can use wisdom.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Further, to answer some of your points:
1) Few criminals steal a car IN ORDER TO kill someone or rob them with it. Guns are a different animal altogether and a stolen gun does not have some alternate primary use.
2) Expensive car stereos generally have very sophisticated security systems, or are protected by secondary security systems, or have removable face-plates, etc. -- all things that home theater equipment costing much more does not have. Why? Because we know PEOPLE STEAL CRAP OUT OF CARS all the time.
Just like if we'd left a kitchen knife on the counter edge and it fell and cut someone. Or we left the iron on and started a fire. Or we did any of 1,000 things we all know better than to do.
1) Few criminals steal a car IN ORDER TO kill someone or rob them with it. Guns are a different animal altogether and a stolen gun does not have some alternate primary use.
2) Expensive car stereos generally have very sophisticated security systems, or are protected by secondary security systems, or have removable face-plates, etc. -- all things that home theater equipment costing much more does not have. Why? Because we know PEOPLE STEAL CRAP OUT OF CARS all the time.
With me. Why would I be any of those places and leave a gun in my car? All of those are times when I would have the gun in my physical presence.
Criminal? No. Wise? No.
Yes. Cars are broken into at rates which dwarf home break-ins. My home is also occupied nearly 24/7. Otherwise, guns are locked up. But there's also the point that we can generally only do "so much." Stored in a locked case/cabinet/safe within our homes is the safest most of us are possibly able to make our guns. We've done all we can at that point. Left out in a car is NOT "the best we could do." Far from it.
Again...blame? Responsibility? If we knew something was a fairly common ocurrence and we had other options which would largely eliminate that occurrence, but we didn't take even the basic steps to keep that from happening... the BLAME is still on the criminal. But we certainly do deserve to march ourselves upstairs and look hard at the guy in the mirror and give him a GOOD slap upside the head.
Just like if we'd left a kitchen knife on the counter edge and it fell and cut someone. Or we left the iron on and started a fire. Or we did any of 1,000 things we all know better than to do.
smalls
Member
This is why I hate off body carry, save some special circumstances.
I know a lot if women don't like it, because it forced them to wear a cover garment all the time and what not, but suggest she carry it on her person. Impossible to leave the gun attached to your hip somewhere.
Hardtarget
Member
A few years ago I locked my vehicles all the time. Even in my driveway. Then one night punks broke a $600 window for a $150 radio. So now I don't lock up at home. I also don't leave ANYTHING in the vehicles.
Mark
Mark
HorseSoldier
Member
Exactly.
Poor decision making by victims of crimes does not change or diminish the fact that a crime occurred (though it could potentially influence how a jury or insurance company view a situation). I think a lot of people out there just have no idea how common a crime theft from vehicles is, and consequently don't think about the responsibility aspect of leaving guns and other potentially dangerous items (i.e. prescription meds) in their vehicles. I'd have to check my department's stats to verify it, but I'd estimate that vehicle break ins are probably literally about 100 times more common than burglaries.
Points taken. I do not store a firearm in my car/driveway at night, for the same reasons that have been mentioned. Despite this, I do occasionally have to leave one in my car when I am doing things such as stopping to eat/shop while going to or from the range or hunting. Unless you openly carry a rifle, every time you stop anywhere, you are leaving a gun in a car.
I do not think it is irresponsible to leave a rifle or handgun in a car while eating a meal, enjoying a swim, going horseback riding, or any number of activities that preclude the carry of a gun. Sometimes, there is no other choice than to store a firearm in a car.
I freely admit it is more likely to get stolen, but sometimes that is the lesser of two evils. What do you guys do that work at a place where you cannot carry into the building? Do you go unarmed both before and after work, or do you leave it in the car? Just curious, because your car is probably parked at work for more hours of the day than it is parked at home.
I do not think it is irresponsible to leave a rifle or handgun in a car while eating a meal, enjoying a swim, going horseback riding, or any number of activities that preclude the carry of a gun. Sometimes, there is no other choice than to store a firearm in a car.
I freely admit it is more likely to get stolen, but sometimes that is the lesser of two evils. What do you guys do that work at a place where you cannot carry into the building? Do you go unarmed both before and after work, or do you leave it in the car? Just curious, because your car is probably parked at work for more hours of the day than it is parked at home.
22-rimfire
Member
Always lock your vehicle unless it is inside your garage with the door down. I learned this the hard way..... lost about $3000 worth of stuff from inside my locked truck one night in my driveway in a low crime area.
So, unless you don't care, take your firearm inside the house when you leave your vehicle over night.
So, unless you don't care, take your firearm inside the house when you leave your vehicle over night.
HorseSoldier
Member
I have a coworker who has a single pistol sized gun safe installed in her vehicle for those sorts of issues.
Not everyone is so lucky, but I had to leave my carry weapon in a locked glove box due to getting my wisdom teeth removed. Due to the extreme measures needed to get them out of my head, I was "put under" so obviously couldn't have it on my person. Got home and due to our recent move, parked the car outside (since the garage was full). My wife up till this point was apparently leaving the car unlocked (which never occurred to me to ask, I assumed, especially in a car with electronic locks, that it was common sense to always lock the car).
We came outside, and other than a Subaru Forester trunk liner (a car neither common, nor "cool" with punks) nothing was stolen. But the glove box handle was almost broken off... Obviously they weren't serious criminals or they would have just pried it open, but I got lucky.
Thankfully due to the design of the gun (a HK P7M8) I had taken the 5 seconds necessary to remove the firing pin and kept that in my pocket, so the gun would have not functioned anyways. Irregardless, a replacement could have been ordered by the thieves, and a criminal could have been equipped with a dangerous weapon. I take much more caution to not leave a firearm in the car for more than a few minutes anymore... and a bolt-on single gun safe if a great idea if you regularly need to do so.
I hope you documented the serial number, so you at least have a chance of recovering the weapon, or at least getting the thieves in more trouble if they do locate it.
We came outside, and other than a Subaru Forester trunk liner (a car neither common, nor "cool" with punks) nothing was stolen. But the glove box handle was almost broken off... Obviously they weren't serious criminals or they would have just pried it open, but I got lucky.
Thankfully due to the design of the gun (a HK P7M8) I had taken the 5 seconds necessary to remove the firing pin and kept that in my pocket, so the gun would have not functioned anyways. Irregardless, a replacement could have been ordered by the thieves, and a criminal could have been equipped with a dangerous weapon. I take much more caution to not leave a firearm in the car for more than a few minutes anymore... and a bolt-on single gun safe if a great idea if you regularly need to do so.
I hope you documented the serial number, so you at least have a chance of recovering the weapon, or at least getting the thieves in more trouble if they do locate it.
Impureclient
Member
My parents just had their brand new truck rifled through a couple weeks ago. They have security cameras pointed at the truck and all. They left the door open over night and the guy just looked around in it.
Luckily there was nothing of value in it at the time. The only reason they knew it happened was the stuff was all over in the truck and they looked at the video tape from the night before.
These scum probably just walk around and try every vehicle door and figure one will be unlocked sooner or later.
Luckily there was nothing of value in it at the time. The only reason they knew it happened was the stuff was all over in the truck and they looked at the video tape from the night before.
These scum probably just walk around and try every vehicle door and figure one will be unlocked sooner or later.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, there certainly are times when it is the lesser of the two evils. Or lesser of the two risks. And an occasional swim or something would probably fall into that category. Of course remember that there are criminals who think about where people often park and drop their valuables in the car ... so while you might not be doing this often, you probably are parking your car in a theft hot-spot.
At any rate, there are very inexpensive vehicle pistol safes which will go a long way to keeping at least the smash-&-grab guy from getting your gun, and maybe your wallet and I-phone too. If this is something you have to do (because of work) or will do at all often, that would be money well spent!
Inebriated
Member
This... Seriously guys, you can get those little Gun Vault safes for $35 that'll hold a G21 and two mags, but is still able to slide under a seat, and be tethered to one of the seat brackets. $35, out the door, to have a reasonable amount of protection for your firearm, and potentially multiple lives.
This is also a good technique when driving a convertible. If you're parking with the top down, leave the windows to up to keep honest people honest, but, the doors unlocked and nothing of value inside. By "nothing of value" I also mean no backpacks, purses, laptop cases, etc in view. Parking top up, leave the doors unlocked and nothing of value inside. A ragtop just isn't secure storage, with either the top up or down, and I'd rather have someone take a look around and find nothing than cut the top to take a look around and find nothing.
ETA: I'm more talking about stepping in somewhere for lunch or leaving it in a car park for a couple hours. Overnight, garaged and locked if possible.
ADHD
has many forms - and some reflect on the impulse state of mind the person might have at times.
Muting the RKBA for a second. The OP knows his wife best.
Advising him to make her keep a ccw instead of a pepperspray
is political advice. Not sound advice.
A friend of mine recently sold his handguns due to ADHD.
He didnt feel safe with them, when he had his impulsive moments.
has many forms - and some reflect on the impulse state of mind the person might have at times.
Muting the RKBA for a second. The OP knows his wife best.
Advising him to make her keep a ccw instead of a pepperspray
is political advice. Not sound advice.
A friend of mine recently sold his handguns due to ADHD.
He didnt feel safe with them, when he had his impulsive moments.
Sorry about your loss.
Since the car was unlocked, your auto insurance probably doesn't cover the loss. Might be worth checking your policy though.
Since the car was in your driveway, your homeowners insurance might cover the loss. However, the claim might affect your rates (which would be especially annoying if they don't cover the loss).
Some credit cards cover stolen purchases for a window of time.
If your state has a Victims Compensation Fund, you might be eligible to apply for compensation.
Since the car was unlocked, your auto insurance probably doesn't cover the loss. Might be worth checking your policy though.
Since the car was in your driveway, your homeowners insurance might cover the loss. However, the claim might affect your rates (which would be especially annoying if they don't cover the loss).
Some credit cards cover stolen purchases for a window of time.
If your state has a Victims Compensation Fund, you might be eligible to apply for compensation.
Well, the pros and cons (and relative risks and rewards) were already discussed in great detail in this thread here, so there is no point re-hashing any of that. (Thread originally about trunk gun but lots of good commentary about guns in the cabin as well)
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-663466.html
However, I'll just say, if you must leave a gun in a vehicle, leave it in the trunk, and lock the latch that enables you to "pop the trunk" from the cabin of the vehicle. Also lock the flip-down seats if your vehicle has them, preventing any access to the trunk from the vehicle cabin.
In my car, both things lock using the regular ignition key, and in doing so, anything in the trunk is much more secure than anything in the cabin. It would take a pretty robust effort to get into the trunk, not impossible, but tougher than a smash n grab job. Also it has the added benefit of being concealed, so most criminals won't attempt to get in there unless they know the payoff will be worth their extra efforts.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-663466.html
However, I'll just say, if you must leave a gun in a vehicle, leave it in the trunk, and lock the latch that enables you to "pop the trunk" from the cabin of the vehicle. Also lock the flip-down seats if your vehicle has them, preventing any access to the trunk from the vehicle cabin.
In my car, both things lock using the regular ignition key, and in doing so, anything in the trunk is much more secure than anything in the cabin. It would take a pretty robust effort to get into the trunk, not impossible, but tougher than a smash n grab job. Also it has the added benefit of being concealed, so most criminals won't attempt to get in there unless they know the payoff will be worth their extra efforts.
beatledog7
Member
I'm not in the "leaving a gun in your vehicle is asking for it to be stolen" camp.
Thefts from cars are most often carried out by petty thieves who can either see something inside they want or find the vehicle unlocked and decide to have a look around. The best defense is to make sure they can do neither.
Thefts from cars are most often carried out by petty thieves who can either see something inside they want or find the vehicle unlocked and decide to have a look around. The best defense is to make sure they can do neither.
I agree, most thefts are crimes of opportunity. They see something valuable, no one is around, hence, smash n grab. So a gun hidden away in the glove box (which also can be locked separately, usually) is not "asking" to be stolen, but if the doors are unlocked or there is anything else exposed in the vehicle, the car is an easy target, and the gun is a collateral loss.
It is a fine line between "blaming the victim" and trying to point to ways that it could have been avoided, for future reference. As Sam humorously pointed out, if you walked around a sketchy neighborhood in a tutu with rolex watches singing racist things, it may not be your FAULT you get beat up and robbed, but you surely could have taken measures of avoidance. It doesn't exonerate the people who actually did the crime, but I think any rational well-adjusted person should be able to look back retrospectively, self-analyze and be comfortable taking on some level of responsibility.
mgmorden
Member
No offense, but it sounds like you're treating her more like a child than your wife. She's a legal adult - she can make her own decisions.
Had a similar experience. I drive a soft top Jeep and would always lock the doors. One day the wife and I go to Seattle to the Pacific Science Center for something to do. Parked the Jeep in a parking garage down the street and went in. Came back two hours later and some A-hole had sliced open the top and pried open the glove box. Their total haul a pack and a half of cigarettes and about twenty 800mg Motrin. My bill $1800.
Rezin
Member
I am glad I read this. For the last few weeks, I have been thinking of denoting my Bersa Thunder to a truck gun. I would leave it in my truck, that way it's there on those rare occasions I don't have my ccw. I coold lock it in my glove compartment, but I figure that is not much safer.
Claude Clay
Member
been said already
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Making own decisions yes...good ones no. How about if a gun owner knows exactly where their gun is. And keeps it secure when not being carried. It's not an iPhone to simply leave in purse 24/7
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