I had an issue shipping a handgun UPS today.

[new57]

Good luck with the insurance claim if it gets lost or stolen. If you don't follow their rules re: declaring, you'll be out whatever the gun is worth. That's your risk to take, though.
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There is a risk, but to me advertising firearm on paperwork is just asking for someone to gamble and thieve it. But "mechanical instrument" or "mechanical tool" well a thief will likely pass.

With respect to semantics by the very definition of mechanical and either instrument or tool a firearm fits the bill. And our adversarial justice system is built upom semantics.

A definition for 'tool' is "a device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function." Now does that definition not fit the very thing that a firearm is? It does. Nicely in my opinion.

Declaring content as "hand tools" is accurate for a pistol or revolver. Plural because shipper can throw in a screwdriver along with the firearm to fit the plural use of 'tools'.

 

[Encoreman]

I have pretty much come to the conclusion in order to get things done on a timely basis, I will have to do or help someone do their job. I think Hi-point ships items as metal parts or something like that.

 

[dogtown tom]

According to one of my local FFLs, and an ex mail worker, firearms get put under more security than other mail....

Hogwash. There nothing written on the box to indicate a firearm is inside. Think why that is.

 

[kwb377]

How do UPS/FedEx workers know there's guns in packages when they are not marked?

I recently bought shotgun off GB, and the moron merely taped the box shut (no outer box or butcher paper wrapping) and slapped an address label on it to my FFL. I was shocked when the big red and white shotgun-sized box emblazoned with "Benelli" all over it actually made it through the USPS system.

Good luck with the insurance claim if it gets lost or stolen. If you don't follow their rules re: declaring, you'll be out whatever the gun is worth.

And good luck with getting USPS to actually pay an insurance claim.

I shipped a mountain bike fork that I sold (and insured) for $500. It never made it to the recipient. I started the insurance claim process (it's intentionally convoluted and agonizing, requiring you to go by the local PO, then to a website, then call a phone number to leave a message, then get called back). After filling out all the required on-line forms and submitting the required paperwork (I sent a copy of the ad showing the price I sold the fork for and a copy of the PP payment showing the amount the buyer sent). A month later I got a notice in the mail that the claim had been denied because I couldn't provide a receipt from where I initially purchased the fork (totally irrelevant to the claim). Well of course I didn't have a receipt for the fork...it was a component of a complete bicycle I bought brand new.

 

[General Geoff]

A month later I got a notice in the mail that the claim had been denied because I couldn't provide a receipt from where I initially purchased the fork (totally irrelevant to the claim).

Sounds like small claims court material to me. They breeched their contract with you.

 

[Deus Machina]

Hogwash. There nothing written on the box to indicate a firearm is inside. Think why that is.

I kind of figured, but they did say specifically at the USPS. I figured at best they get one of the big cages locked until it's shipped out. Or more paperwork.
Maybe it was different way back, when the ex-mail carrier was at that job. It was just kind of an "oh, okay" situation.

 

[Seedy Character]

Corporate stupidity.

UPS refs
Declare firearm
Place multiple stickers on package stating package contains a firearm
Place package on open warehouse
Act confused when package is lost
Require customers to pay higher fees because of firearms being lost.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I sent out my sold Smith 686 PLUS to a chap's FFL in Hamburg, New York today in SW Oklahoma. I had a prepaid label from ShipMyGun.com operated under Budsgunshop.com. It was the 2nd Day Air class. It was $49 and change!! Rather steep for a 3.75 pound package. I had to go to the UPS Hub and it is only open from 3-7 PM, M-F. The guy said that he was trained not to accept a shipment for a handgun 2nd Day but only Overnight. I told him who the third party was that sold me the label. He then got on the telephone to call some dude at the "help center" and supposedly that guy OK'ed the 2nd day shipment. None of these carriers will take handguns ground rates, only long guns. The handgun market has to get punished by these high-price express air rates because of corporate policy, not federal law. The shipping biz must be scared to deal with handguns for some reason. They have to have some excuse to jack customers with these high handgun rates.

Except to pump money out of people, why else do they want want you to use the expensive speedy rates for handguns? FedEx operates the same way and only an FFL can even ship a handgun from a post office. People are all weird about handguns. FedEx and UPS both sock it to you on handguns. They really socked it to my buyer who paid the shipping, not I. I had to deal with the hassle burning up my time.

I did finally get the handgun shipped off to my GB buyer but this hassle added a 20 minute delay and I was the first customer in the door at 3 PM sharp. Do I by law even have to declare a handgun in a package to a carrier?

OK...first of all here are my qualifiers:

I'm not and expert in how UPS (or FedEx or any other shipping company) works. I've only a bare minimum experience with shipping a firearm. And, of course, my postings here aren't to be considered that of an actual "authority" on the subject.

Overnight or 2nd Day Shipping:

There may or may not be a move towards overnight, I have no idea. If I were to ask myself "What would be a practical reason for doing this", my answer wouldn't be "to charge customers higher prices". Why? Because the profit margin for the carriers is not going to be significantly higher, if at all.

First of all, there's an economic reason why overnight costs more for the customer...that's because it costs more for the shipper. If there IS a higher profit, it's not likely to be very much.

Second, I rather imagine the number of firearms shipments amounts to a tiny fraction of their total shipments, especially from us "little people". This means any profits they might realize via overnight shipments of firearms is very likely to be insignificant in comparison.

SO WHY MIGHT THEY WANT TO DO OVERNIGHT?

Practically speaking, overnight probably means two major things:

1. It's delivered faster and is therefore out of the shipper's hands sooner.
2. It goes through fewer hands to reach it's destination, therefore if there is a problem it's easier to track down and deal with.

A lost firearm during shipment is a HUGE deal. If it's an interstate shipment, the federal government gets involved and that's not something they want to deal with if they can figure a way to minimize this happening. It's such a huge deal that firearms companies really don't worry about it. If a firearm disappears, the feds get involved and things get miserable for the shipping company if it's not recovered. Firearms companies who may have to deal with a customer's lost firearm are more concerned with the customer being satisfied...if the gun they just repaired, for instance, is lost in shipment, they'll let the feds deal with it and happily provide the customer with a brand new replacement in the meantime.

(Of course, us "little people" who may be shipping a firearm from a sale don't have that kind of resources, but at least the feds will be making life miserable for others over this.)


Do I by law even have to declare a handgun in a package to a carrier?

This is from the ATF site:

May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

In addition, federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a)(5), 922(e) and (f); 27 CFR 478.30 and 478.31]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-common-or-contract-carrier


So the short answer to your question is "YES". You must notify the carrier that the shipment contains a firearm. However, federal law says the carrier is barred from requiring the placement of any label on the package which indicates a firearm is inside.

Whether or not an FFL is required depends on whether or not travel is within state or to another state.

HOWEVER...there is nothing in the laws which says that a carrier cannot require ALL shipments to be between licensed (FFL) dealers, whether in state or not. How enforceable this may be legally will likely vary from state to state.

 

[dogtown tom]

I kind of figured, but they did say specifically at the USPS. I figured at best they get one of the big cages locked until it's shipped out. Or more paperwork.
Maybe it was different way back, when the ex-mail carrier was at that job. It was just kind of an "oh, okay" situation.

Maybe on Registered Mail, but not firearms specifically.

 

[dogtown tom]

OK...first of all here are my qualifiers:

I'm not and expert in how UPS (or FedEx or any other shipping company) works. I've only a bare minimum experience with shipping a firearm. And, of course, my postings here aren't to be considered that of an actual "authority" on the subject.

Overnight or 2nd Day Shipping:

There may or may not be a move towards overnight, I have no idea. If I were to ask myself "What would be a practical reason for doing this", my answer wouldn't be "to charge customers higher prices". Why? Because the profit margin for the carriers is not going to be significantly higher, if at all.

"Overnight" has been a requirement by FedEx for shipping handguns for over a decade as has "Next Day" by UPS.

Do I by law even have to declare a handgun in a package to a carrier?

This is from the ATF site:

The problem with the ATF FAQ's is the answers don't jibe with the ATF regs they cite.
I covered this ten years ago in the "Shipping firearms" sticky: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-to-ship-firearms.651375/

May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

In addition, federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a)(5), 922(e) and (f); 27 CFR 478.30 and 478.31]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-common-or-contract-carrier


So the short answer to your question is "YES".

And that FAQ answer is flat wrong. ATF knows and has admitted its wrong.
If you read the cites you find this:
§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.


1. Handguns can certainly be shipped via USPS. I do it every week. Licensed dealers and manufacturers can lawfully ship any firearm. Average Joe is limited to rifles and shotguns only when using USPS.
2. Federal law only requires notification to the carrier when shipping interstate to a nonlicensee. And with only a couple of narrow exceptions, that would be the illegal transfer of a firearm.

You must notify the carrier that the shipment contains a firearm. However, federal law says the carrier is barred from requiring the placement of any label on the package which indicates a firearm is inside.

That notification is required by the carriers tariffs or policy, not federal law.

Whether or not an FFL is required depends on whether or not travel is within state or to another state.

An FFL has nothing to do with travel.
If you are travelling via common carrier (bus/ship/ferry/train, etc) you can deliver the firearm or ammunition to the captain, conductor, etc without violating federal law.

HOWEVER...there is nothing in the laws which says that a carrier cannot require ALL shipments to be between licensed (FFL) dealers, whether in state or not. How enforceable this may be legally will likely vary from state to state.

True. and FedEx has done just that.
Violate federal law, its a crime.
Violate the common carriers tariff or policy and its not a crime. If you ship in violation of the carriers tariff they can deny any claim for loss, damage or theft.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Well, it's all this gun control stuff and media stupidity that makes life hell for us gun folks. Corporations often follow govt. idiocy as a model to do business. Why don't you think our automobiles are any longer cheap and simple like they were decades ago?

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

I recently bought shotgun off GB, and the moron merely taped the box shut (no outer box or butcher paper wrapping) and slapped an address label on it to my FFL. I was shocked when the big red and white shotgun-sized box emblazoned with "Benelli" all over it actually made it through the USPS system.



And good luck with getting USPS to actually pay an insurance claim.

I shipped a mountain bike fork that I sold (and insured) for $500. It never made it to the recipient. I started the insurance claim process (it's intentionally convoluted and agonizing, requiring you to go by the local PO, then to a website, then call a phone number to leave a message, then get called back). After filling out all the required on-line forms and submitting the required paperwork (I sent a copy of the ad showing the price I sold the fork for and a copy of the PP payment showing the amount the buyer sent). A month later I got a notice in the mail that the claim had been denied because I couldn't provide a receipt from where I initially purchased the fork (totally irrelevant to the claim). Well of course I didn't have a receipt for the fork...it was a component of a complete bicycle I bought brand new.

Postal workers might not even know what a "Benelli" is. It is an Italian name and they might just assume it's a long giant-size salami inside the "shotgun-size" box. Five years ago, I shipped a Lionel train set to an eBay buyer in an old Corona beer box. There was nothing indicating there could be any alcohol in the box because with a black Sharpie I crossed out all the pertinent beer information in finer print. The Corona logo was still patently obvious and postal clerks would not accept it until I wrapped the damn thing all in plain paper. I did not have shipping paper or freezer paper back then, so I ad hoc'ed some 8.50 x 11 printer paper and scotch tape to cover the box. The post office seems to know more about alcoholic beverage brands than gun trademarks. Would an openly-marked navy blue Smith & Wesson box even pass the USPS?

Dammit! I could have just turned that Corona box inside out to make it plain on the outside!! But the O-scale train was carefully packed inside the box already and I didn't want to fool with the contents any more.

 

[CapnMac]

It's amazing how this topic always pops up every so often, and ruffles so many feathers, despite any number of stickies or previous threads on the topic.

This has all been law (or Commonly Accepted Practice) for half a century--yet everyone always seems surprised. And all manner of aspersions and accusations of modern manipulation are always applied.

Often a question is asked (or assertions made) about thefts of things in the hands of common carriers. Few appreciate just how much word-of-mouth exists to be exploited by the venal and base.

 

[CraigC]

This is old news.

You don't legally have to declare it, as an individual but if you don't and it gets lost, you're screwed.