I have heard people saying the .223 isnt great for defense and have a question

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Bart go harass someone else, your behavior is childish.

Quoting your own exact words back at you is childish?

All I am trying to do is figure out which of these two statements of yours is true; because they seem contradictory to me:

Ive seen a few deer dropped instantly with a fmj/sp/hp .223 at 300 plus meters.

I saw 3 deer shot in the same field by the same individual in 3 years by a .223, each time the individual stood in the exact same spot, these were but 3 of many instances over the years.

Again, I don't know any people who regularly hunt deer at 300 plus meters, let alone do it with .223, so I am just trying to better understand what is going on here. I'm also surprised to find out that .223 FMJ leaves noticeable entry and exit wounds in deer at 400 meters.

Were these deer wearing Kevlar helmets too?

 

[benEzra]

My question is are we defending against 100 V.C. or a neighborhood thief. Why have an AR15 under the bed when you can have a 9mm within arms reach and have it ready to go a lot faster than you could a long rifle to get the same results? if it was me, id have a 9mm or a 380 is also fine. that crook wont know what hit them.

An AR is more an alternative to the traditional 12-gauge shotgun as a HD long gun, and offers more precision, less recoil, and higher capacity.

The use of long guns for HD is not a recent trend by any means.

 

[2Ais4U]

Is there anyone here who would let me shoot them in any part of their body, wearing what ever you want, in order to prove that 5.56 is not good at killing people?

No they just rather complain about it. They know it will kill them/and or send them to the hospital near death.

I love these discussions; I just remembered a similer thread on the LWRC forum. Someone said the 7.62 will drop a person with one shot, Pat Rogers was like really? I put 6 into a guy once before he decided to go down.

I was shot in the upper arm (bicep) with a 7.62 ( we think it was an ak-47) in Afghanistan, and the shoulder with an m4 and I would rather just not get shot.

 

[Guns and more]

The military uses weapons for different reasons than you.
The military uses the 5.56 because a soldier can carry a lot of ammo.
Also an enemy wounded by a 5.56 takes three soldiers out of battle, the wounded plus two to carry him away. A dead enemy soldier is only one lost from the battle.
For a civilian, you want to stop the one attacker, not an army. Don't let the military make your weapon choices for you.

 

[benEzra]

The military uses weapons for different reasons than you.
The military uses the 5.56 because a soldier can carry a lot of ammo.
Also an enemy wounded by a 5.56 takes three soldiers out of battle, the wounded plus two to carry him away. A dead enemy soldier is only one lost from the battle.
For a civilian, you want to stop the one attacker, not an army. Don't let the military make your weapon choices for you.

Ordinary, non-SWAT police use .223's loaded with civilian JHP's/SP's as patrol rifles, for exactly the same reason that other civilians use them for HD, and it has nothing to do with being able to carry lots and lots of spare magazines.

Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.

INTRODUCTION

Until recently, the 12 gauge shotgun has remained the universally accepted shoulder fired weapon for United States law enforcement use, despite the shotgun's limitations as a general purpose weapon--short effective range, imprecise accuracy, downrange hazard to bystanders, small ammunition capacity, slow reloading, and harsh recoil. While 12 gauge shotguns still have a valid law enforcement role, especially to deliver specialized munitions and possibly in close quarters combat (CQB), recent recognition of the shotgun's significant limitations as a general purpose weapon have prompted many American law enforcement agencies to begin adopting the more versatile semi-automatic carbine for general purpose use.(12) Semi-automatic carbines offer more accuracy, less recoil, greater effective range, faster reloading, and a larger ammunition capacity than the traditional shotgun.
...
Less well known is that 5.56mm/.223 rifle ammunition is also ideally suited for law enforcement general purpose use in semi-automatic carbines.(5,6). It offers superb accuracy coupled with low recoil, and is far more effective at incapacitating violent aggressors than the pistol cartridges utilized in submachineguns and some semi-automatic carbines.
...

CONCLUSION

A 5.56mm/.223 semi-automatic carbine with a minimum of a 14.5" to 16.5" barrel may be the most effective and versatile weapon for use in law enforcement. When used with effective ammunition, the 5.56mm/.223 carbine simultaneously offers both greater effective range and less potential downrange hazard to bystanders than a 12 ga. shotgun, handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG , as well as far greater potential to incapacitate a violent criminal than any handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG.
...
The routine issuing of 5.56mm/.223 semi-automatic carbines for general purpose use to all law enforcement officers would significantly enhance officer safety, increase police effectiveness, and decrease dangers to innocent bystanders in all situations requiring the use of firearms.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Also an enemy wounded by a 5.56 takes three soldiers out of battle, the wounded plus two to carry him away. A dead enemy soldier is only one lost from the battle.

We want the bad guy KIA ASAP! If you're overrunning a position or being overrun you don't want to go back and have to "revisit" those you've only wounded and who remain a deadly danger.

Al Qaeda, Taliban, and other irregular fighters don't have the human resources to care for their wounded. They also don't seem value the lives of their wounded.

 

[Byron]

Guns and More,that argument of taking 3 out of battle is untrue. The enemy doesn't do it nor do we. In battle, one cannot afford to take a rifle out. This has been discussed on my similar threads and yet the myth continues. Byron

 

[NMGonzo]

You carry 200 rounds of 7.62 NATO on the field (I have), I will go ahead and carry 200 for 5.56 on my AR.

 

[RebelRabbi]

The 223 / 5.56 is a Varmint caliber. No, I don't want to be shot with one, Thanks. The 7.62's are Medium Game calibers. A human is properly classified as thin skinned medium game using these criteria. Sick ain't it? Since warfare is human killing human, it is logical that one use the right caliber.
Caveat? The Military doctrine that promotes wounding over killing. So, if I need to protect my life or an innocent third persons life from imminent deadly attack I would prefer something capable of rapid incapacitation; 7.62 Soft Point, 12 Ga. Slug or 45 HP's are my choices. But if I am the Military and I need to move Billions of rounds of ammo across oceans and continents then the smaller lighter cartridges look pretty darn good to me, plus my soldiers will probably hit more of the enemy and wound more of the enemy and tie up more of the enemy resources in medical care. It's a logistical choice here.

 

[2Ais4U]

The military uses weapons for different reasons than you.
The military uses the 5.56 because a soldier can carry a lot of ammo.
Also an enemy wounded by a 5.56 takes three soldiers out of battle, the wounded plus two to carry him away. A dead enemy soldier is only one lost from the battle.
For a civilian, you want to stop the one attacker, not an army. Don't let the military make your weapon choices for you.

The big problem with the military aspect here is not only

Al Qaeda, Taliban, and other irregular fighters don't have the human resources to care for their wounded. They also don't seem value the lives of their wounded.

many of them dont seem to feel it when they get shot with a 5.56 due to mass amounts of drugs in their bodies.

 

[NG VI]

I was shot in the upper arm (bicep) with a 7.62 ( we think it was an ak-47) in Afghanistan, and the shoulder with an m4 and I would rather just not get shot.

2Ais4U how did you wind up being shot with an M4 if you don't mind me asking?

Sounds like a crappy pair of wounds to receive.

RebelRabbi you would really rather use .45 ACP anything for home defense than a .223 rifle? Why?

 

[Guns and more]

When used with effective ammunition, the 5.56mm/.223 carbine simultaneously offers both greater effective range and less potential downrange hazard to bystanders than a 12 ga. shotgun, handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG , as well as far greater potential to incapacitate a violent criminal than any handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG.

This sounds like it's from a sales brochure. "Greater range, yet less hazard to bystanders." What?
"Far greater potential to incapacitate ...bla..bla..then any handgun or SMG. (can we stop with the 3 letter code please.) "Oh, No, not an SMG!!!
So a shot from a .223 will take out a violent criminal faster than a blast from a .454 Casull, or .50 DE. HUH? He said ANY handgun.

I missed the part about "And we can curve the bullets too."

 

[Zerodefect]

It's highly unlikely that I'll ever need anything more than my CCW Glock23 and actually have time to get to my safe/bug out boxes.

But I'm confident my 5.56 AR is plenty, shoot, my tiny 5.7x28 PS90 should be plenty. My 6.8spc AR is a bit overkill. My .308 is way too heavy. The Mossberg is too heavy, too slow, too big. My Ar is my fastest gun to move around with (except for the speedy little PS90). Going through rooms or around cover is alot slower with my Mossy and .308.

A 70+ grain 5.56 OTM is one heck of a round.

 

[DMK]

A 70+ grain 5.56 OTM is one heck of a round.

Heck yea.

We can argue all we want about M193 vs Viet Cong or M855 vs Al-Qaeda. The fact is, we are not constrained by Hague convention and can pretty much load our AR15s with any ammo we want.

Myself, I keep a half dozen mags loaded with 75gr TAP for my HD carbines. I just can't see how stopping power would be a problem at self defense range. No handgun would do better.

 

[Art Eatman]

The tone of the opening post seemed to me to indicate civilian + defense. That, to me, says ranges inside 100 yards; odds are, inside 50 yards. Else, it's more attack than defense.

Seems to me that in general, an expanding bullet would be more effective than any FMJ, so the military's restrictions of whatever sort are irrelevant. Same for the quantity of ammo to be carried.

I dunno. Given the mess the .223 loads make inside a coyote, I find it hard to worry about the general effectiveness on a Bad Guy. That includes the GI stuff from the late 1960s and early 1970s as well as 55-grain soft-points.

 

[Virg461]

This whole argument seems to miss the point. If you have to defend your home from a drug crazed moron, the average distance of the shot will be more on the order of 10 to 20 feet, not 50 yards. Give me a Rem 870 with an 18 inch barrel and a mag extender anyday. If 5 rounds of buckshot doesn't do the trick, finish it with a slug.

The AR is a fine weapon, gets better and better with each year due to all the fine folks that continue to innovate with the platform. But if my burglar alarm goes off, I'm pumping the 870 and God help whoever saw fit to break into my castle.

 

[Guns and more]

This whole argument seems to miss the point. If you have to defend your home from a drug crazed moron, the average distance of the shot will be more on the order of 10 to 20 feet, not 50 yards. Give me a Rem 870 with an 18 inch barrel and a mag extender anyday. If 5 rounds of buckshot doesn't do the trick, finish it with a slug.

I agree 100%. Forget what some Pentagon General was sold.

 

[Ignition Override]

2Ais4U:
Welcome back.
Thank you for your service against the Taliban.

It's good to read something by someone who has been in an actual skirmish or battle (whether military or LEO).
Glad to read that they they both missed the more vital areas.

By the way, our fancy, over-computerized burglar alarm (3 years old) goes off about once per week, sometimes at 1 o'clock AM.
The person walking around when it goes off, in order to disarm it, is always a family member, at times in the dark....this could happen when the lights will Not come on....
Maybe the ultra-paranoid in our country should be aware of the father years ago who shot his daughter in the neck (home a day early, after midnight-very dark hallway: dead), or the guy who recently assumed that his fiance was in bed, instead of having the common sense to switch on a light when somebody came in from the garage (very dark hallway: dead).

 

[DMK]

If you have to defend your home from a drug crazed moron, the average distance of the shot will be more on the order of 10 to 20 feet, not 50 yards. Give me a Rem 870 with an 18 inch barrel and a mag extender anyday. If 5 rounds of buckshot doesn't do the trick, finish it with a slug.

I think this boils down to individual preference and proficiency.

I hate shooting my shotgun. I love shooting my rifles. Therefore I am much more proficient with my carbines due to much more practice. AR15s are also light, compact and have low recoil. They can be handled more effectively by the smaller children and women of my family.

Granted, the 12ga with buckshot or a slug is going to hit a lot harder than a double tap of .223 OTMs. But that doesn't do me much good if I can't use the weapon effectively.

 

[GMFWoodchuck]

LIke what Virg461 said. I'm grabbing my mossberg (yeah he said rem, but it's the 12 gauge part that I'm talking about.) I doubt there are too many people on this earth that will survive a center of mass followed by a head shot from a 12 gauge. Drugs or not.

Putting that aside. If I have only one gun and it's an AR/variant I'd be happy. With a 20 round clip, I know after a few center of mass followed up by head shots the would be criminal is going down. Drugs or not.

I will never take a chance with only one shot. No matter what firearm it is.

 

[DMK]

By the way, our fancy, over-computerized burglar alarm (3 years old) goes off about once per week, sometimes at 1 o'clock AM.
The person walking around when it goes off, in order to disarm it, is always a family member, at times in the dark....this could happen when the lights will Not come on....
Maybe the ultra-paranoid in our country should be aware of the father years ago who shot his daughter in the neck (home a day early, after midnight-very dark hallway: dead), or the guy who recently assumed that his fiance was in bed, instead of having the common sense to switch on a light when somebody came in from the garage (very dark hallway: dead).

This is one reason why it is important to have a light on your HD weapon. Or at least know a workable technique to use a flashlight with your weapon.

Shooting at someone/something that you can't identify is criminally negligent.

That was a sad story about that dad, but quite frankly he was an idiot.

 

[benEzra]

This sounds like it's from a sales brochure. "Greater range, yet less hazard to bystanders." What?

The author is one of the most respected law enforcement ballisticians in the field. He is not a gun salesman.

.223 JHP is far less prone to ricochet in an urban environment than typical police buckshot loads, is less penetrative in building materials than 00 or 000 buckshot, is less lethal after penetrating even a single wall than 00 buckshot, and offers more precision.

"Far greater potential to incapacitate ...bla..bla..then any handgun or SMG. (can we stop with the 3 letter code please.) "Oh, No, not an SMG!!!

I believe the intended audience of LEO's know full well what an SMG is. This article was written when a lot of departments were still using MP5's for SWAT (most of them have since switched to .223 carbines).

So a shot from a .223 will take out a violent criminal faster than a blast from a .454 Casull, or .50 DE. HUH? He said ANY handgun.

In the context of the article, he was talking about any law enforcement issue handgun. LEO's only use Desert Eagle .50 AE's in Matrix movies. And until somebody loads fragile JHP's into .454, then yes, .454 would be about as effective in LEO use as .44 Special/.44 magnum solids/.45 ACP FMJ, because typical .454 loads are too robust to expand in 12" of gelatin (they are made for very deep penetration in very big, very thick-boned animals).

 

[NG VI]

This sounds like it's from a sales brochure. "Greater range, yet less hazard to bystanders." What?
So a shot from a .223 will take out a violent criminal faster than a blast from a .454 Casull, or .50 DE. HUH? He said ANY handgun.

How quickly can you put a second or third shot into a target with a .454 Casull? How quickly can you put you first shot into the important parts of a target with a .454 Casull? Can you in a probably less than brightly lit area with less than ideal circumstances make sure you will hit bone with it? If not, that slug would punch through and keep on going.

Compared to how quickly I or just about any other normally constructed human can do that with a .223 carbine, yeah, they are significantly better for defense than any handgun. Even when they are loaded with FMJ and the handgun is not. People aren't very thick, the same lack of penetration people dislike the .223 for makes it ideal for defensive use against other people.


And to the guy who plans on shooting a home invader in the head repeatedly, that really isn't a good idea. every bullet has two lawyers (at least), a judge, and a jury attached to it. You never want to wait around and see how he liked your first shot, but you also don't want to go out of your way to ensure he dies if things go your way and he stops being a threat.

 

[Tirod]

It's seems we're moving from the subject - 5.56. The Army is attempting to finalize the design on a homogeneous copper hollow point for issue, and the industry - with Hornady and Barnes in the lead - is delivering just that for intermediate hunting use already. I have no doubt that if it will knock down a 300 pound hog or 150 pound deer inside 400m, it will have similar effects on human targets.

Arguing the use of a significantly larger caliber for home defense does bring up the problem of cost of ammo, practice, and expected results. Recoil perceived by the user has a huge effect on the willingness to use a weapon. Noise is another. Larger calibers will have significantly more impact on the user in a confined space. All the large caliber proponents don't consider that, apparently because they never tried it.

Shoot a shotgun, or big pistol at a target with no hearing protection in a confined 10x12 space and learn different. I don't read where it's recommended to sleep with hearing protection, or even part of the grab gear when awakened suddenly.

Point being, HD is an internet fantasy used to justify firearms sales. More people are killed in traffic accidents than have lethal home intrusions. Way more. Perspective on the reality of how any of us is more likely going to die indicates we should spend more time promoting alcohol and drug abstinence first.

That will leave more money for ammo.

 

[Art Eatman]

The thread started out asking about .223 ammo. It's not about handguns or shotguns or, as near as I could tell, military missions.

As usual, anything much past two or more pages goes to wandering.