I kinda like the S & W Sigma pistol

[Hawgleg44]

Marshall-

Have you ever worked as a machinist? Yes, it does take a LOT more cost in material, wear on tooling, finishing and time (labor costs, too) in order to produce an aluminum or steel frame than it does to mould a platic frame. And, there are more parts made of plastic (read less expensive to produce) in the Sigma than in the CS Series. Yes, I do own both.

Since we have now made it clear why the Sigma is so much less expensive to produce than your example of a CS Series, I'd like to go back to my original statement/question. Why does the Sigma (which is sooooo much of a Glock "knockoff" cost around $200 less than a Glock, even though they both are mostly plastic? I would have to say it has something to do with Glock's huge profit margin.

ABBOBERG-
If you sent your Sigma back, and got a barrel as a replacement with a loaded chamber indicator (peephole) in the barrel that you did not have before, you probably had an SW40V and not an SW40VE. The earlier model 40V had the Glock type loose tolerance striker system (which was improved with the VE model) and did not have a loaded chamber indicator. Do you still have this Sigma? If so, I'd like to see an Enhanced Series Sigma without the peephole. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Marshall]

Yes, it does take a LOT more cost in material, wear on tooling, finishing and time (labor costs, too) in order to produce an aluminum or steel frame than it does to mould a platic frame. And, there are more parts made of plastic (read less expensive to produce) in the Sigma than in the CS Series. Yes, I do own both.

So, the Sigma is a cheaper made gun.

Of course it costs more to make the CS-45 but more than 125%? Come on Hawgleg, we both know better. Besides, they've had the tooling set up for ever now.

So, you think we'll be able to buy a M&P for $285.00? How about $385.00? No? How about $485.00? Why will this plastic gun sell for so much more than a Sigma for $285.00? Is it going to be that much better? If so does that make the Sigma cheaply made? If not, does that mean S&W is selling at more than a modest profit?

 

[Hawgleg44]

Marshall-

It's obvious that you are just looking for something to whine about with S&W. If you don't like them, fine. You are twisting words around from "less expsensive to produce", as in PRODUCTION COST, to cheaply made, read lower quality.

Yes, the M&P will obviously cost more to produce. A more complicated mechanism with more metal parts, plus the interchangable backstraps all add production cost. If you have ever worked in any kind of manufacturing or fabrication work, you would understand that.

Even S&W does not know what the final cost of the M&P will be now, or the LE incentives they are going to offer. I have some inside info on this matter, but nothing set in stone yet. And, I definately wouldn't want to get any of my friends that work there (fairly high up on the food chain I might add) in any kind of trouble.

 

[old_ironsights]

Talk is just...talk!

Years ago I bought a police trade-in SW40F. I changed out the striker spring with a softer one from Wolff. I didn't keep track of how many thousand rounds that've been through it with 0 malfunctions.

I can eat the middle out of a target with ease out to 50 feet. It's very comfortable to shoot and comes right back on target. After 100 rounds, it's still fun to shoot and with 15+1 capacity it can go through 100 rounds quickly.

I don't put any stock in what people say about the Sigma, 'cause my experience has been nothing but good. The pistol hasn't been made that can overcome the deficiences of every shooter.

Old Ironsights

 

[Marshall]

Hawgleg,

No, I don't have a bone with S&W's, matter of fact I like a lot of them and own many of their wheelguns. Also, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I am just pointing out an opposite point of view on two things.

My only contention is that you said the Sigma is a better pistol than a Glock and and that's because S&W made a quality product in the Sigma and sells it for a modest profit. I would be hard pressed to agree that it's a better pistol than a Glock and hell, I don't even like Glocks. I am also hard pressed to agree that S&W's objective was to make a Glock quality gun for a $285.00 street price and thus are making lower margins on it. If so, they failed miserably IMO.

It's my belief S&W wanted a cheaper made, inexpensive, plastic semi-auto to grab low end buyers. They succeeded in that which I believe was exactly what they aimed for. Now they're trying to build a better made plastic gun, the M&P and market it as direct competition to the Glock, XD and Sig Pro.

Below is all I have a disagreement with.

This resulted in a "Glock-type" pistol which is a vast improvement over the Glock.

Sure, you can call it a "cheap" knockoff. The only reason the price is so much lower than a Gluck is because S&W makes a quality product, with a lifetime warranty, and sells it for a modest profit.

 

[duncan]

I owned a Sigma 40cal V model and it had FTF, FTE, stovepipes, etc.

My gunsmith could not figure out why so many problems.

They took it back and I bought a Glock 30.

But the Sigma does have one of the best grips in the world ergonomically.

A local police agncies a couple years ago, returned all 200 Sigma's to SW.

So it's based on reality not just hate.

 

[Hawgleg44]

quoted:
I owned a Sigma 40cal V model and it had FTF, FTE, stovepipes, etc.

My gunsmith could not figure out why so many problems.

They took it back and I bought a Glock 30.

But the Sigma does have one of the best grips in the world ergonomically.

A local police agncies a couple years ago, returned all 200 Sigma's to SW.

So it's based on reality not just hate.

OK, you are talking about older, non-enhanced Sigmas, not the currently produced Sigmas with all the improvements. OK, we can move on now since these are no longer made.

quoted:
My only contention is that you said the Sigma is a better pistol than a Glock and and that's because S&W made a quality product in the Sigma and sells it for a modest profit.

I never said that the Sigma is better than the Glock BECAUSE it sells for a lower price. I said it's a better pistol due to these reasons, which I will list again:
1-Much more chamber support. No Sigma has ever gone "Kaboom" that I know of, or that the factory knows of. As I said earlier, but is being completely ignored due to the fact that you can't disagree with it- Glock had to throat the hell out of the chamber to make their pistols feed reliably. Any gunsmith that has ever done this to a 1911, even in a low pressure cartridge like the .45acp, has been called a hack and that the pistol was not unsafe. Why, then, is it now "safe" to do it with a high pressure round like the .40? If you would like to see some nice, close up pics comparing the Glock .40's support to the Sigmas, I'd be more than happy to provide them. Seeing this, it's no wonder you hear so much about "kabooms".
2-Round, close tolerance strikers instead of the Glock loose tolerance chisel tip. This has completely eliminated any reports or returns back to the factory for broken strikers on the Sigma. Funny NYPD is still having Glock 19's that go "click" instead of "bank" due to broken strikers. Glock's been working on it for years and still can't explain it.
3-Much improved ergonomics. The grip angle of the Sigma is natural, to most people anyway. I guess Glock's "perfect" grip angle is the reason there are so many companies out there who perform grip angle modifications.

I've fired tens of thousands of rounds through my Sigmas, all 9 of them I own, have owned, or been issued. Five of them have been the 1st and 2nd Generation "problem" guns. In all of those rounds, I have had only ONE FTE in a 1st Generation SW40F that I was issued. No other malfunctions of any kind, and just about all the ammo put through them has been cast bullet reloads using Unique powder. I can honestly say that my G17, both my 22's and my 23 were all 100% reliable, but I did have some malfunctions with my G19 with fewer rounds fired, too.

Sure, I can see that the Sigma is not a Glock improvement, no breakages, malfunctions, more ergonomic, and all my enhanced Sigmas are 100% reliable.

Marshall- Just out of curiousity, what problems did you have with your Sigma that turned you against them? Was it a currently produced "Enhanced" Sigma you had a problem with, or was it a 1st or 2nd Generation gun? Whatever problems you had, did you try working with the factory to correct them?

 

[duncan]

If it's better why are few PD's issuing them?

 

[Hawgleg44]

Glocks go Kaboom, why are PD issuing them?

1911's are excellent guns, why aren't they issued more? Rugers are some of the best built guns out there. Not nearly as many of them riding in duty holsters as other brands.

The Sigmas role in LE was ruined by their early problems. The new Sigma line (which S&W actually no longer uses the Sigma name with the new line) is really nothing like the older guns. More reliable, completely redesigned trigger and striker mechanisms, lower ejection port, etc. But, the name sticks to the problems they had with the early models.

It's kind of like the Ford Pinto. How good of a marketing tool would it be for that name to be brought out again?

At least the top Glock USA marketing reps saw the light and jumped ship. They now work for S&W. The one thing Glock was always superior on was marketing. It looks like that's going to change now, too.

 

[duncan]

Glad you like them.

think SW has always made the best shooting revolvers in the world.

Love my SW 610 and 645.

And their first entry in the 1911 market looks great too

Would love a 3913 and a 1076 in 10mm.

But I'll wait to see how these new SW SAs do.

Let us know.

 

[Marshall]

Hawgleg,

No, a hunting buddy of mine has one, he complained about it all the time. I told him to take it with us on our next shooting trip and he did. I got a chance to shoot it and didn't care for it either. To me it felt like cheaply made gun. Some guns just feel that way, some don't. I had two failures to eject, stove piping, which is a pet peeve of mine. The gun was plenty accurate, I had no gripes there and the grip didn't feel bad.

I will admit, I had preconceived ill feelings about them before I shot it. My dealer steered me away from them, said he gets too many complaints. I believe about half of what he tells me on anything under $500 though, he likes me to spend larger sums. Actually, I prefer the $400-$650 range handguns. I can find products of pretty good quality in that range, at least for what I need. Anything more than that, I have a tough time justifying. I'm leery of the cheaper $150-$300 range guns. I know, you can get a few of anything that are a surprise.

 

[Tropical Z]

I own a SW9VE and a 2nd generation Glock 21.The Sigmas ergonomics are vastly superior.It isn't even close.

 

[Hawgleg44]

Marshall-
Was the Sigma you were shooting an Enhanced Series or an older 1st or 2nd Generation gun? If it was an older gun, yes, they did have problems. But, the new Sigmas are just that, new. In fact, S&W no longer uses the "Sigma" name anymore. They just go by the model numbers.

The new "Sigmas" have different frames, slides, extractors, strikers and entire trigger assys. So, you can't even compare them to the older "problem" guns that people complain about.

I don't let price steer me away from anything. I look at the product itself. If you want, I can sell you a new Sigma for $600. I'll bet it will be a better Sigma than anyone elses!

 

[Marshall]

I don't let price steer me away from anything. I look at the product itself.

Age of the Sigma? I wasn't too impressed so I didn't ask, they all look the same to me.

 

[Hawgleg44]

quoted
Age of the Sigma? I wasn't too impressed so I didn't ask, they all look the same to me.

Well, all you had to do was open your eyes, and you would be able to tell. They don't even look that much alike, other than the basic shape.

Were the edges of the slide square or rounded? Did it have a loaded chamber indicator? Did it have checkering on the side of the grip? Did it have an equipment rail?

If you decide to chime in on this thread and whine about the new Sigmas unreliability, at least make sure you have at least shot one! I'd never slam anything that I have absolutely no experience with! But, that's just me. I want people to find what I say credible. I guess a lot of others don't care about that.

 

[Marshall]

Hey Hog, a little emotional are you? It's your gun, not anything attached to you we're speaking of.

Go read again, I told you I have shot the gun.

I shot the gun, It had problems, felt cheap and I didn't like it. I chuncked it down on the bench and proceeded to shoot my own guns. My friend proceeded to shoot it, had the same problems, picked up his 1911 and neither of us shot it again. So anyway, to make you happy I called my buddy, he says it was a SW9GVE whichever that one is.

Bottom line, it was a Sigma and was a POS. He told me he has since sold the gun and bought an FN Hi-Power since he liked mine so much. Oh yea, the trigger sucked too.

So as I said, you said........

Quote:
This resulted in a "Glock-type" pistol which is a vast improvement over the Glock.


Quote:
Sure, you can call it a "cheap" knockoff. The only reason the price is so much lower than a Gluck is because S&W makes a quality product, with a lifetime warranty, and sells it for a modest profit.

IMO, it's nowhere near as good as a Glock, XD or Sig Pro. S&W made a cheap low-end pistol, not a medium or high end plastic gun. They're selling it for a good percentage of profit or it wouldn't be on the market. They got exactly what they designed and have the market they targeted. Their M&P is the gun designed to compete with the guns mentioned, not the Sigma.

 

[denfoote]

Gee.
From what I have been able to gather, Hawg, and now I, seem to be the only ones here to have actually handled the old Sigma, much less fired one!!

For those who are new here, I retell the tail.
I traded my G29 for a preban SW40F!!!
Yes Virginia, the original dreaded Sigma!! Shipped with 15, not 14 round mags!!!
The gun that got Gaston's pee pee all in a knot!!
The one that was SUPPOSED to blow up or disintegrate after the first shot!!
The so-called "cheap knock off" of the Austrian perfection!!

I figured since I had such an extremely dangerous piece on my hands, I had better take extra precautions when I fired the beast for the first time. So, I donned the level III body armor, crash helmet, extra thick safety glasses, fireproof gloves, and steel toed boots and headed to the range. You could cut the tension with a knife as I prepared to touch off that first fateful round!! Would I be left with all my fingers?? Would I be left with a worthless pile of junk?? Would it just sit there and do absolutely nothing??
I had to find out!!
.
.
.
.
The gun went BANG just like it was supposed to!!!!

In fact, it went bang 100 times that day!!

It's gone bang ever since!!!

No fuss. No muss. No bother No problems!!!

I just read the "Sigma's are crap" threads and quietly chuckle!!!

 

[duncan]

I owned a 40 cal Sigma and shot it and it did not go bang!

Maybe SW got this newer gen of Sigma right.

 

[Hawgleg44]

The first Sigma I ever shot was the SW40F (yes, 1st generation "piece of crap") and I put over 8000 rounds through it. I had one FTE during qualification with our duty ammo, Winchester Ranger 165gr SXT's. One malfunction in over 8000 rounds is a pretty good record if you ask me.

And, I've had two 9F's, a 357V and a 40V, all 1st or 2nd Generation problem guns. Funny, never a malfunction of any kind in them.

Marshall- No, I'm not being "emotional", I'm just stating fact. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through mine without problems at all. The only people who I have seen that had misfeeds (saw very few during PD qualifications) were those who were limpwristing the guns. Once I corrected that problem with them, there were absolutely no malfunctions at all. In fact, the 11+ year old Sigmas are still working 100% of the time for the PD. No malfunctions since the limpwristing incident, and no breakages of any kind.

It sure looks like to respect other people's property by "chucking" their pistol down on the bench.

Hey, if you don't like them, fine. But, I still don't see how they are a "low end" pistol. If that's the case, the Glock must be a total POS with their unsafe chamber designs. It's made the same as the Sigma, same metal parts, same plastic parts. So, the Glock is an overpriced "low end" pistol, huh?

Is the Sigma my favorite pistol? No, not at all. Would it be the last pistol I had if it came down to one? No.

No, my Sigma is not "attached to me". Grow up a little bit. I'm not getting into this personal insult thing, even though you want to drag me into it.

I really thought TheHighRoad had members above this, that's why I joined here. I guess I'll just stick to TheFiringLine, Sig Forum, S&W Forum, AR15.com, and all the others I belong to. Funny, this is the only forum someone has ever tried to insult me on. I had to look for a second, I thought this was a thread on GlockTalk!

I'm too old for this (and I'm really not that old, but at least I'm out of high school). If I wanted to deal with a debate on guns where someone resorts to calling me "emotional" or telling me my guns not "attached to me", I'd talk to my 13 year old niece. All I did was ask you about the problems you had with your Sigma, only to find out that the most vocal detractor of the Sigma has never even owned one. Seems to be a pattern if you read the anti-Sigma threads.

 

[Marshall]

Gee Hawg,

You call asking someone if they're getting a little emotional anti High Road? You really are too emotional then. It's too bad someone can't disagree with you without you crying fowl. After all, you started by called me a liar by saying I never shot the pistol, glad to see you were following High Road form you are now attempting to hide behind.

Lighten up, just because not everyone agrees with you and, the Sigma they have shot was a POS, is no reason to get so defensive. I don't have to like it, I don't have to own one to have a personal view of the pistol and I don't have to agree with you, I have every right to share my experience with the gun. Shooting it proved to be a crummy experience for my buddy and I and sharing that here shouldn't bother you. Limpwristing huh? Interesting, none of our quality pistols had any problems that day and I have never had a problem with any of my guns in that fashion.

But I don't think that's why your emotional anyway. I think it's more the fact that I took you to task on you saying it's better than a Glock and you saying that S&W is really making a much more expensive pistol in the Sigma but just lowering their margins on the product which is how you defend the low pricing and portray it as a better gun than the more expensive Glock.

Anyhow, enjoy your Sigma's, I'm glad they work well for you and hope they continue to in the future.

 

[marshall3]

Another "Marshall" chimes in...

I'm a different "Marshall," but I happen to own a Sigma which I like very much. The trigger really isn't so bad! Here's my Sigma page:
http://www.mouseguns.com/my40/my40.htm

 

[sigma 40ve]

I have a 40VE and can't complain about it. Yes I do own several other brands and calibers. I have no problem trusting my life with it. It has been my nightstand pistol before it was replaced by a 4506. It also just returned from a 5000 mile vacation out west with my wife and I. Others can bitch, whine and belittle the Sigma all they want, I personally am VERY happy with mine. I bought it new for $275 OTD and have purchased 10 used high cap mags for it, and a factory 357 sig barrel additionally. Still have less money in it than a new Glock 22 with just 2 high caps would cost at my local dealer.

 

[Hawgleg44]

Gee Hawg,
You call asking someone if they're getting a little emotional anti High Road? You really are too emotional then. It's too bad someone can't disagree with you without you crying fowl. After all, you started by called me a liar by saying I never shot the pistol, glad to see you were following High Road form you are now attempting to hide behind.

Marshall, you sure do like picking and choosing my words, then twisting them around. I never once said that you never shot the Sigma. I told you to make sure you had shot one since before I posted that, you couldn't even tell me whether it was a currently produced Sigma! I never called you "anit High Road". I did say that I didn't expect someone to act like this here, but I guess no site is immune to personal attacks.

You call me "emotional"? Sounds like you are the one taking offense at what I said to you, only if you twist my words to make them what you want to hear. So, take your time and change these words around and let me know what you come up with.

Lighten up, just because not everyone agrees with you and, the Sigma they have shot was a POS, is no reason to get so defensive. I don't have to like it, I don't have to own one to have a personal view of the pistol and I don't have to agree with you, I have every right to share my experience with the gun. Shooting it proved to be a crummy experience for my buddy and I and sharing that here shouldn't bother you. Limpwristing huh? Interesting, none of our quality pistols had any problems that day and I have never had a problem with any of my guns in that fashion.

Maybe you should "lighten up". If you go back and read what I wrote about limpwristing, all I posted was my experience, just like you were posting your experience. Solving the limpwristing problem with some of the officers on the PD solved all the malfunctioning problems. No more "crummy experience" with us.

But I don't think that's why your emotional anyway. I think it's more the fact that I took you to task on you saying it's better than a Glock and you saying that S&W is really making a much more expensive pistol in the Sigma but just lowering their margins on the product which is how you defend the low pricing and portray it as a better gun than the more expensive Glock.

From my experiences, the Sigma is a much better pistol than a Glock. I've already outlined my reasons before, but since you only read and respond to what you want to, it would be a waste to post them again. Yes, they lowered their profit margins on the Sigma, and yes, they produced a better gun than a Glock. You had one Sigma that malfunctioned. Fine. Nothing's "perfect", except for a Glock of course .

If you would like to hear about "perfect" Glocks, check this out:
http://northeastshooters.com/viewtopic.php?t=522

Do I hate Glocks? No. In fact, I just traded one of my .40 S&W Sigmas for a Glock 22 with 5 15-round mags and a .357 Sig barrel. Am I going to keep it? Probably not. The first person who wants to buy it is the new owner. If nobody wants to buy it, then I'll probably do the grip modification and get an aftermarket .40 barrel for it so it's safe to shoot.

 

[Hawgleg44]

That's why I usually stick to the S&W and Sig Forums. You barely run into any of this there. But, I have seen a few good threads here, and a few other boards where this behavior runs rampant.

No big deal. I know what I'm posting is true from my experiences. From the way some people act, It's hard to believe they have been on the Earth long enough to even have any experience.

 

[Marshall]

Hawgleg,

Tell me where I have upset you so, I am curious as to what has riled you. And, what is wrong with me posting my negative experience with the Sigma? It appears quite a few people have negative experiences with this gun. Are we only suppose to post something positive for fear someones feelings might get hurt? We can't be honest and possibly save someone from buying a weak gun or at least have them hear the other side? After all, you asked me to share my experience with the gun. I guess we all had to own a Ford Pinto to know it what kind of car it was? We can't tell from test drives and talking with friends and neighbors you know and trust? What is wrong with me disagreeing with you? Are we all suppose to agree? I'll be sure and not disagree with you on anything else, I don't want to get you all upset again.

I guess some people think any kind of confrontation is not "high road", if I have done anything worthy of being anti high road the mods can boot me right now.


BTW, since you asked, this is where you stepped in and got emotional and brought any form of personal jabs into this thread. You did indeed say I had not shot the gun which is calling me a liar and then went on to question the credibility of my experience. I even let that go and didn't say anything about it until you continued to be emotional later in the thread. I was merely posting my experiences and opinions. So yes, you started being anti high road in this thread.

Well, all you had to do was open your eyes, and you would be able to tell. They don't even look that much alike, other than the basic shape.

Were the edges of the slide square or rounded? Did it have a loaded chamber indicator? Did it have checkering on the side of the grip? Did it have an equipment rail?

If you decide to chime in on this thread and whine about the new Sigmas unreliability, at least make sure you have at least shot one! I'd never slam anything that I have absolutely no experience with! But, that's just me. I want people to find what I say credible. I guess a lot of others don't care about that.

When you are going to say you didn't say something, make sure you really didn't say it.