I know which gun is the absolute best.

[White Horseradish]

It is the one you have with you. Last night, I needed one and I did not have it.

The short of it is, I was robbed at knifepoint in my own garage.

I was coming home from work and stopping off at Wal-Mart. It was 11-ish. I opened the door with the remote and pulled in. The door stayed open because I was going to throw some trash from the car into the garbage can which is just outside the door.

I was at the passenger side of the car when two guys walked in. One black, one Hispanic. Both wearing hooded sweatshirts. The Hispanic guy pulled a $1.99 knife and the black guy said they didn't want to hurt me, it's holiday season and they got families. Then he walked up, stuck his hand in my pocket and grabbed the cash. I have a very small garage and the side door sticks. The only way out was through the main door and the passage was just slightly wider than an average person and the guy with the knife was standing in it.

I am in the process of moving into this house. I haven't moved anything into the garage yet. I did not have so much as a pointy stick. The special aluminum baseball bat I usually keep in the garage was not there.

This happened in the fairly quiet NE Minneapolis. The cop said this doesn't happen very often here. I sure feel a lot better after hearing this.

I will be writing thank you letters to Unity Church of St. Paul, White Bear Unitarian Universalist Church, Adath Jeshurun Congregation, The City of Minneapolis, and People Serving People, Inc. They were very kind to file the lawsuit that put the CCW licensing on hold. I'll be thanking them on behalf of the robbers. I am also rather angry at myself for putting myself into such a bad position. I had become too relaxed and complacent. I was not paying attention. I paid $65 to be reminded of that.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I'd rather lose $65 to two thugs and not get hurt than I would have to shoot two thugs and get arrested and my guns confiscated and go to court etc., et yada.

 

[White Horseradish]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I have no Death Wish (I'm no Paul Kersey). I do, however, think that the sight of a Makarov coming out of my pocket instead of cash would have made them run. We're not talking high-grade determined criminals here.

 

[Arc-Lite]

an idea, would be to go back to wal-mart...run ths story by security, play the security tape, and see if you can spot these guys, they even knew the pocket you had your cash in, that is the place they choose you, for the bank for the night, did you check your 6 on the way home? Arc-Lite

 

[White Horseradish]

Coming home I took a long and fairly dark stretch of road. There are no parallel streets and I would have noticed anyone even being there, let alone being tailed. They would have had to follow me through some interesting backroads, too. I don't think these guys are that good.

I think they went for the pocket I had my hand in.

 

[P5 Guy]

Arc-Lite you beat me. There have been some follow them home robberies in the Tampa area too.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I was robbed at knifepoint in Times Square NYC years ago. After the thugs ran away, I ran around the corner and found a cop in a patrol car eating a sandwich. I reported the crime, gave him a description, and pointed to the direction they went. The cop continued eating, and told me unless I knew their names, there was nothing he could do. In hindsight, it could have been Bernard Kerik in that patrol car. It was around 1970.

 

[White Horseradish]

Heh. Well, I have not ever had any actual help from police. All they ever do is take reports and give me speeding tickets. I'm sure they won't find these guys, like they never found who stole my van. Mostly because they won't look. This is too small to bother with.

 

[Arc-Lite]

just consider these things are rarely random, they picked up on you either at wal-mart, or on another stop, they wern't out...for a night walk, THEY KNEW the pocket to go after...chance, maybe.. Did you hear anything following this, besides your heart beating? Time to change your routines, and get something between the drivers door, and the entry to your garage...to knock over...might buy you, a few seconds, if they decide to return, forget logic, when dealing with illogical things. Bad idea, not caling the law, start a report, like in paper trail, might get them driving by your home, serve donuts, do what ever. Just because they did not save your van, or gave you a ticket man mean ZERO. IF YOU DO NOTHING...EXPECT NOTHING. Arc-Lite

 

[Riverrat66]

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I'd rather lose $65 to two thugs and not get hurt than I would have to shoot two thugs and get arrested and my guns confiscated and go to court etc., et yada.

I agree with RileyMc. It was only $65 and I know you were pissed and felt like you were violated but had you shot both of those scumbags, there's a good chance you would have been sued for injuring or killing them! Regardless of the fact that they were robbing you at the time. If you kill them, their family will sue you and if you only wound them, they will sue you. It sounds nuts but that's the way this crazy world is today.

That's why people are so reluctant to get involved when they see a crime in progress. If you see someone getting mugged or rapped and you shoot the SOB you can get sued by the perpetrator. If you are threatened with physical deadly harm and are justified in using physical deadly force to protect yourself, IE: killing or maiming someone you can be sued by them or their family for doing so, even during the commission of a crime.

I know it's hard to do and probably easier said than done. But thank God you were not hurt. Consider the $65 a donation and say a prayer for those two scumbags. Their time will come. It would have cost you a lot more then $65 had you shot the both of them.

Try to enjoy the holidays regardless. Happy Holidays.

 

[41mag]

One more thing?If I were just moving into a new house & had something like this happen I'd add the realtors name to the list of folks who get a note from me.The language you use is up to you of course.

Mebee the next time they list a house in the area they'll say something like "beautiful older ranch in a quiet neighborhood w/only a small chance of being robbed @ knifepoint in your own garage."Or maybe not.

Sorry it happened.Especially @ this time of year.

 

[Arc-Lite]

ya, hind sight is good, ya they only robbed you, you know that now, do you think about that at the time? move beyond this, and insure it does not happen again, $65 is cheap, IF something was learned, to prevent this again. If someone pulls a knife in a robbery, the next step, is using it !!! DO NOTHING, EXPECT NOTHING Arc-Lite

 

[White Horseradish]

just consider these things are rarely random, they picked up on you either at wal-mart, or on another stop, they wern't out...for a night walk, THEY KNEW the pocket to go after...chance, maybe.. Did you hear anything following this, besides your heart beating? Time to change your routines, and get something between the drivers door, and the entry to your garage...to knock over...might buy you, a few seconds, if they decide to return, forget logic, when dealing with illogical things. Bad idea, not caling the law, start a report, like in paper trail, might get them driving by your home, serve donuts, do what ever. Just because they did not save your van, or gave you a ticket man mean ZERO. IF YOU DO NOTHING...EXPECT NOTHING. Arc-Lite

Nothing routine about last night. I took a road I hardly ever take, it was the first time I parked in the garage at this house, I go to that Walmart maybe once every two months, if that.

Who says I didn't call the law? I was on the phone before the door was all the way down. It's just that I have low expectations. No way in hell does MPD have the resources to investigate a $65 robbery.

 

[38SnubFan]

Let The Flaming Begin!!!!

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I'd rather lose $65 to two thugs and not get hurt than I would have to shoot two thugs and get arrested and my guns confiscated and go to court etc., et yada.

Yep, you're absolutely right. I AM going to flame. I AM going to rant. I probably WILL hurt some feelings. I WILL piss people off with my statements. I WILL get told about it. However, I WILL NOT CARE!

I've been a member of this forum for a little while now, and more and more I'm getting real sick of those who own and/or carry a gun, but consistently whine, "I dare not shoot someone with it. They might find me criminally liable (even though I'm clearly justified) or worse, sue me!"

First off, the guy was robbed at knife-point. Last time I checked, A KNIFE IS CONSIDERED A LETHAL WEAPON! Secondly, the perpetrators TRESPASSED on to private property owned by White Horseradish with intent to unlawfully remove property belonging to White and threatening harm to him. I don't know about Minneapolis, but here in Pennsylvania that's enough to justify the display and/or use of lethal force.

I don't care if it was $65.00 or $0.65. If somebody has the balls to attempt to take it from me unlawfully by means of force, THEN I WILL RESPOND WITH FORCE!

I agree that the world these days is really screwed up and everyone sues for everything under the sun. However, I'm the last thing I'm going to worry about in a particularly lethal encounter is whether the sh*tbag I'm about to defend myself against will sue me. I'M WORRIED ABOUT SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDING MYSELF AND NOT BEING KILLED! If you're going to worry so much about your gun being confiscated (and it will happen due to the fact that ANY shooting, justified or not, requires that gun to be taken into evidence by authorities pending investigation), dealing with the courts (that's a DUH too!) and possibly being sued (may or may not happen) then why do you bother to have the damn firearm?

I'd like to say I'm sorry for ranting so angrily, but no, I'm not sorry. I've heard just about enough from the "sheepish whiners".

 

[reagansquad]

For me, $65 is worth fighting someone over, even two people, even if one of them is armed with a knife. That is 1 month of groceries. I usually get to buy groceries ever 2 months. I'll take my odds in a knife fight over my odds of going 4 months without food. I guess that's the difference between being employed and being under-employed, though. Merry x-mas.

 

[brownie0486]

I'll be moving into my new home shortly over the holidays myself.

I'll be packing a 38 snub on a hip grip and two knives while loading/unloading the vehicles and store runs for supplies [ these are always on me ].

White Horseradish: I think in hindsight you did the right thing by not resisting.

As to a poster who stated good thing you didn't shoot them for fear of being sued, well, all I can really say tothat thought process is "deadly force is met with deadly force".

No one takes my belongings while I watch them when I have the means to stop their felonious actions against me and mine [ which is pretty much all the time ].

Have a safe holiday, as you state, you have learned a valuable lesson and it wasn't that expensive.

Robin Brown

 

[Double Naught Spy]

For me, $65 is worth fighting someone over, even two people, even if one of them is armed with a knife.

I am constantly amazed at how niave people are. Sure, White Horseradish got robbed of $65.00, but the issue of the money became irrelevant once his life was threatened. At that point, the hoped for money was what brought the robbers to him.

For some darned reason, people believe in these situations that if they give up the money, the bad guys will will simply go away without causing further trouble. It is a sort of implied deal, even if not overtly stated. Even so, it is not a valid negotiation when only one side sets the rules. On top of that, why would you even trust that the law-breaking robbers are dealing squarely with you and will actually not harm you if you give up the money? The FBI has the number at 13% where folks comply or bystanders are harmed after compliance. The classic sorts of examples are in shooting the clerk after a robbery or shooting the store customers who were witnesses as the robbers leave a store.

When you life is threatened in something like a robbery or home invasion, do you really think the issue is about the money? Do you really trust the word (implied or stated) of bad guys that they won't hurt you if you give up the money?

 

[Riverrat66]

Mr.38SnubFan,

Yes you are entitled to rant, carry on and be pissed off all you want. The fact of the matter is. After you get finished killing someone for $65 or $0.65, the Grand Jury will ask you the magic question, could you have escaped? Could you have run away without shooting this person? There are a million scenarios that could have taken place. Who held the knife? Was it the guy who went thru his pockets? Was the knife at his throat? It's a proven fact, a man with a knife is much faster then a man with a firearm. So, you pull a gun, you're still going to get stabbed! Best thing to do, give him your money and defuse the situation. If you shoot him as he is running away, you are in trouble because the threat is no longer there. It's a split second decision that can only be made by the person in that situation at that precise moment.

I'm getting real sick of those who own and/or carry a gun, but consistently whine, "I dare not shoot someone with it.

You sound awful anxious to shoot someone. Have you ever? I have and it's not a pleasant thing to do. You want to kill someone over $65, be my guest! Me, I would have tried to reason with them, then gave them the friggin' money myself. Then beat myself up for not shooting the scumbags! But after I cooled down, I would have realized that shooting them for a lousy $65 would not have been worth all the trouble.

The Hispanic guy pulled a $1.99 knife and the black guy said they didn't want to hurt me. Then he walked up, stuck his hand in my pocket and grabbed the cash. The only way out was through the main door and the guy with the knife was standing in it.

So, the knife was not at his throat but held by the guy in the door a few feet away. This may have been a time when a firearm was indeed truly needed! Or the guy could have just gotten back into his car and locked all the doors, started the car and driven out of the garage.

I've heard just about enough from the "sheepish whiners".

I'm not a sheepish whiner as you put it, just a responsible gun owner who does not think he's Rambo just because he carries a concealed firearm. But I am prepared to use my firearm at the appropriate time.

BTW, I have CCW permits in 5 states. You should read some of their laws pertaining to the use of deadly force.

 

[charby]

$65 or getting stabbed?

You did the right thing by just letting the BG grab your cash.

The knife wielding felon can have my $65 or whatever else is in my wallet, pocket or whatnot. Unless he threatens my life or folks around me I am not going to respond with deadly force. I know people believe that it is better to be judges by 12 than carried by 6 but I'd rather cough up the insides of my pockets than spend time in prison for murder, manslaughter or whatever charges I will be be found guilty of.

$65 is a cheap price to pay from not getting stabbed and going through the whole medical ordeal and whatnot. Poop happens to good people all the time, you just got off easy this time. If you did branish a gun and the knife wielding felon stabbed you, more than likely you would have an serious injury or be dead and the BG would have ran out of the place to rob again.

$65 is 3-4 weeks grocery bill for me too, but I rather go hungry for a few weeks then be sitting in hospital bed or in jail.

Charby

 

[CAS700850]

I think what is key here is that he did what was necessary to get to the point where he made it through to be able to tell us the story. As White Horseradish said himself, he wished that he'd had his Mak, but he did not. Let's not spend time with the "what if's", but rather focus on the reality of the situation. I'm not Steven Segal in one of his movies, I'm a slightly out-of-shape male approaching middle age (or maybe there at 36) with my unarmed combat training getting rustier by the day, and I can just about guarantee that if I try to fight unarmed against two guys, one of whom is armed, I am going to be hurt, possibly badly, possibly killed. So, if I give up some cash and come out unscathed, I did the right thing.

AS an aside, I have a friend who carries about $10 in singles in his off-side pocket, with his plan being to remove these and throw them on the ground in one direction if robbed, hoping to distract his attacker so he can either run the other way or draw, depending on the situation.

 

[fb]

No NO Im sorry, but they have no right to the money, or to threaten my person.
I am an old man, but I still have principles, and a few are, dont touch me ( ladys exampt). Dont threaten me, or in any way abuse me.
As far as that knife is concerned, be careful, you may eat it!
Ive lived by these principles all my life, I dont have much longer to go, the day I die they will still be in place.

 

[TallPine]

Unless he threatens my life

Excuse me ... holding out a knife and demanding money is not a threat to your life ........?

Well then, just tell them you gave at the office and you can't help them today

 

[R.H. Lee]

I should have said in hindsight "I'd rather lose $65 to two thugs and not get hurt than I would have to shoot two thugs and get arrested and my guns confiscated and go to court etc., et yada."

If WH had been armed he no doubt would have drawn, and maybe fired, at the two thugs. I know I would. I would not stand there, armed, and allow someone to go through my pockets. No way would allow them to take my money, my pistol (if they found it), and possibly my life. However, he was unarmed, as was I during the encounter in NYC.

 

[Arc-Lite]

I did not say, your action were at random, I am saying this act of these scum bags, was not a random thing, you were marked, followed, threatened with a cheap knife, held up, all successfully. Pulling a gun, does not mean you shoot them 20 times threw the head, and throwing yourself on the courts mercy. Being in a closed garage, a knife between you and the exit, leaves little to the question, could you escape. The point of the money, is not a point, the point of black or brown is not a point, the question of you in court, is not a point, should have, could have, would have, is fluff. My apologies for my assumption , that you failed to call the police, your words about tickets, your van, and the dead give away, when you spoke of them finding it strange, to be robbed in your new neighborhood, again my apologies. Hind sight, you lived, this time, to tell the story. They did not stick you, a choice of theirs, seams like you learned something, as we all have. Do not relive it, or defend it, now (hopefully) is over. If you knew it was coming, you could have done things different, as we all would. do not add to it, look at your action prior to this event, where you were, and what you did, is the only thing you know for sure. You lived, to tell the tail...and that is a great point in itself. Arc-Lite

 

[scbair]

I need to know where to get a good crystal ball. Mine doesn't work.

No, I wouldn't shoot someone for merely stealing $65, cash or merchandise. If someone finds my wallet lying in my driveway, or grabs my hedge trimmer and runs like a rabbit, I'm not gonna open fire.

On the other hand, if someone threatens me with serious or fatal injury (as, oh, I dunno, pulling a knife on me, while I'm cornered in my garage and demanding my money), different ball game. My rule is to get there firstest with the mostest. Draw weapon & fight as hard as I can, till I've either won or lost! It ain't my property I'm concerned about; it's my life!

Oh, but he said he didn't want to hurt me? Well, then, that's different! Obviously anyone who threatens and robs would never lie! If my wife or daughter were present, I'm sure no team of robbers would ever think of rape or torture, either.

I'm not flaming anyone for getting caught unprepared; that can happen. To say it's better to not resist if resistance is a viable option is another matter. Until I can predict 100% what my fellow man is capable of, I'd just prefer to leave my well-being up to me, not him!

I have a CWP, and carry whenever I'm out & about. I also carry a small pocket revolver and a strong, fast-opening folding knife in and around my home (no CWP needed in my state). I buckle my seat belt and have a spare tire & operable jack, whether I'm driving out of state or around the corner to the barber shop. I see no difference . . .