I know which gun is the absolute best.

[Riverrat66]

SteelyDan,

Very well said! Especially the the part about, "I think some of you folks are nuts."

Texian Pistolero,

I can't BELIEVE this GUTLESS snivelling and whining!
because of some imagined preconceived idea of the outcome of some imaginary legal process,
you are a coward and a Judas turd of everything that real men stand for.

Did you forget to take your medication again?

I will take note of the site names of the cowards who have posted.
I will not anwser any future post you may make. Quite simply, I'm a man, and you are not.

Hey SteelyDan, you should feel honored. I think you just made the pistols list. Right along with the rest of us. Whoopee!!!

 

[The Rabbi]

I think some of you folks are nuts. I don't know the statistics, but I'm pretty sure that 95+% of the time it's simple robbery, you turn over the money, the bad guys go away, and you live to go home to your family. Overall, it's not a good day, but keep it in perspective.

And the other 5% it's...what? Too bad? One of them breaks? How do you know beforehand which one this is?
And how much money is enough to kill someone over? This wasnt covered in my CCW class.
What do you have a concealed weapon for if not for stuff like this? Why should citizens have to pay a "fear" tax or "proteksia" to the local scuzzballs every now and then? Are you really more afraid of the US legal system than an armed guy threatening your life? Do you honestly not have a duty to your fellow citizen to give some guy a bad day that might discourage him from doing the same thing (or worse) to someone's mother or sister or wife?
Riverrat and Steely Dan: Hand over your wallets now and I wont hurt you. And while you're at it hand over you guns, esp if they're nice ones.

 

[Island Beretta]

I have to agree with what The Rabbi has been saying.. as rare as it is.. we must ensure our focus is not misplaced in potentially lethal situations..it will cost you your life..

Develop a routine, a line in the sand which triggers the defend/no defend action- discuss with attorneys, police, prosecutors - seek guidance and document these discussions. Show the court (should it ever get to that) the training/advice you have gotten and how you followed it to the 'T'. Deal with all this before not when the BG is pulling a gun on you!!

 

[Zundfolge]

Is this fact or fiction? Is this an actual law or your interruption of something you read?

Riverrat66,this is how Colorado law has been explained to me by a lawyer (during my CCW class) ... as per usual, your state may vary, but the lawyer said he believed that this is a general legal principal that most states use ... again, check your local laws first.

think some of you folks are nuts. I don't know the statistics, but I'm pretty sure that 95+% of the time it's simple robbery, you turn over the money, the bad guys go away, and you live to go home to your family.

The problem is that you don't know if you're in the 95% or the 5% until AFTER the thug has left.

Also, 95%+ of the time when the would-be victim draws a piece, the bad guys just go away and both you and them live to go home to your respective families.

While Texian Pistolero may seem somewhat extreme, I can say that having endured a robbery at gunpoint once myself, I don't intend to let the next SOB who tries me get off free and easy. Its more then money, its the next 6 months of sleepless nights and cringing every time you read about one of those "5%" robberies wondering if it was the guy you let walk away with your stuff just to harm someone else.


If you're primary fear is legal trouble then don't carry (but do make sure you educate yourself on the laws wherever you live).

 

[Riverrat66]

The Rabbi,

Riverrat and Steely Dan: Hand over your wallets now and I wont hurt you. And while you're at it hand over you guns, esp if they're nice ones.

What is it you don't understand about what I said? Maybe you should re-read my posts. Am I typing too fast for you? Where did I say I wouldn't shoot you if you came into my house? Are you a troll? You keep fanning the flames here just to get everyones reaction!

You said "DIfferent states have different rules on retreating. In TN there is no duty to retreat." This is true. So then why are you so quick the condemn those who try to obey the laws of their state?
Once again, I'll borrow this quote,
The responsibility of being armed, should have the wisdom accompanying it, to know when, and when not, to shoot.

Zundfolge,
Don't you know how to read either?

think some of you folks are nuts. I don't know the statistics, but I'm pretty sure that 95+% of the time it's simple robbery, you turn over the money, the bad guys go away, and you live to go home to your family.

I didn't say that!

If you're primary fear is legal trouble then don't carry (but do make sure you educate yourself on the laws wherever you live).

And I never said that either! All I said was that if you shoot someone you're likely to get sued. That's a fact, plain and simple. What's the big deal? It does not make me any less likely to shoot an intruder.

Hey boys, get your facts straight and your quotes right before you attach my name to them.

On edit: A good day is when you don't have to kill anyone (flame away boys!)

 

[R.H. Lee]

I don't get this 'duty to retreat' stuff. If you try to run what's to keep you from getting jumped, stabbed or shot from behind?

If you are threatened with lethal force you have every right, not to mention a duty, to meet that threat with lethal force, if you've got it.

 

[The Rabbi]

Hey, Riverrat,
Which side of the debate are you on? Are you with SteelyDan that we're nuts? To his post you wrote

Very well said! Especially the the part about, "I think some of you folks are nuts."

Well, excuse us for thinking that meant you agree with him. Maybe someone is signing your name to posts without you knowing about it?

 

[Zundfolge]

Zundfolge,
Don't you know how to read either?

and

And I never said that either!

Riverrat66, go re-read my post ... I answered your question, then I moved on to other people's stuff ... maybe it wasn't that clear, but I figured once I quoted someone else you'd be able to figure out I wasn't addressing you anymore.

Hey boys, get your facts straight and your quotes right before you attach my name to them.

Thats good advice ... good advice that goes many ways.

A good day is when you don't have to kill anyone

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that ... don't confuse "being prepared to" and "willing to" with "wanting to".

I'm prepared to use lethal force in self defense, but I pray every day I never have to.

 

[Riverrat66]

Truce

Truce Gentlemen,

Lets back up. I think our emotions are getting the better of us and rightfully so. I am on your side. And yes indeed there are some people here who are nuts, not necessarily you.

Just bear with me. I would not hesitate for a heartbeat to shoot anyone who threatens me or my family. But having experienced that, the taking of someones life. I always think it's a good day when you don't have to kill someone. Legal action? I could not care less! Go ahead sue me. I've got millions of dollars of protection. You walk into my house armed or not, by the time the police find you, you will be armed, dead but armed, if you know what I mean. As far as running away is concerned, not me. I can't run. I was shot twice in Nam and have great difficulty walking! Running for me is impossible. The only way of protecting myself is with my firearm. I've been carrying it since 1967. It has been my constant companion, every where I go(no schools, government buildings, etc.). Actually, sometimes it's an annoyance.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that ... don't confuse "being prepared to" and "willing to" with "wanting to".

That is probably the most important statment made in this entire thread! Unfortunately, there are too many people out there who don't understand that!

Peace gentleman and keep your powder dry.

Riverrat66

 

[Arc-Lite]

Guys...I think beside the original victim of this post, we are all making victims of each other !!! ideas differ, actions differ, circumstances differ, laws differ... what the focus here should be, is insuring this does not happen again, to you or me, this can be done, with prevention, a mexican stand off, or with the smell of gun powder...different cicumstances calls for different actions... this is what the grey stuff betweeen your ears...is for...using !!! with all choices comes consequences... weigh your choice, first.... or weigh the consequesces, first......YOUR call !! it will lead to your chosen move. Arc-Lite

 

[Riverrat66]

Arc-Lite,

You're a pretty smart guy. Do I sense some military training somewhere in there? I'd be willing to bet a few dong'.

Riverrat66

 

[The Rabbi]

Riverrat,
I think we're on the same page. Truce to the good guys. Death to the scumbags.

 

[Arc-Lite]

Riverrat66..if you placed your bets well, your pocket would be laced with Dong,Rhodesian pound sterling, Grenada eastern caribbenan dollors, and US green backs... but thats a jeep or land rover or mule, of another color. Arc-Lite

 

[Riverrat66]

I know which gun is the absolute best

Well, now that we're all "on the same page", I'd like to wish all you gentlemen Happy holidays. As for me, tomorrow at 8am, I shall be visiting a road well traveled. I will be undergoing operation number 15! Still paying the price of war. The timing sucks but I have no control over that. Hopefully I'll home in time to enjoy Christmas with my family. And unfortunately, I must leave my "protection" at home!

Riverrat66

 

[The Rabbi]

Good luck Riverrat.

And if you hear the doctor says "oops" take names of witnesses

 

[Arc-Lite]

Riverrat66....keep your focus strong...and keep the eyes on wednesday...tomorrow reflects the honorable deeds of days past, that you stood to protect your brothers and country...you were a warrior 38 years ago....and still a warrior today. Arc-Lite

 

[LiquidTension]

WH - I'm glad you're unharmed.


Many of you seem to be missing the point here. Had WH possessed a firearm, he would not have been forced to shoot the turds unless they were stupid enough to continue their robbery after it was presented. The point is not the $65, because in all probability he'd still have the $65 if he'd had the weapon. The most probable outcome of this situation if he were armed is that they'd run the hell away at the sight of a gun. No shots fired, no dead lowlifes. Many of you are making it seem like the only possible outcome of presenting a firearm is dead people, and that's just plain ridiculous.

WH - Be sure to write to your elected officials and inform them that their lack of CCW laws very nearly got you killed while it ensured the safety of some thugs.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Can't agree, LT. If you depend on the 'presentation' of a weapon when threatened with lethal force, you're taking an unecessary risk IMO. If you draw, you fire. Otherwise leave the weapon holstered. YMMV.

 

[wdlsguy]

I don't know the statistics, but I'm pretty sure that 95+% of the time it's simple robbery, you turn over the money, the bad guys go away, and you live to go home to your family.

Bureau of Justice Statistics
Criminal Victimization, 2003
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cv03.pdf

According to Table 2, in 2002-2003, about 43% of robberies resulted in injury to the victim, and about 28% of attempted robberies resulted in injury to the victim. These numbers don't include robberies where the victim was killed.

According to Table 10, no weapon was used in 41% of robberies, a firearm in 25%, a knife in 10%, other / unknown in 25%.

 

[wdlsguy]

Federal Bureau of Investigation
Crime in the United States, 2003
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/pdf/03sec2.pdf

According to Table 2.12, 1,056 robbery victims were murdered in 2003.

 

[lbmii]

Ok so if we use the data given by wdlsguy we have 43 percent injured not including those who get killed.

So to put it simply; it's a flip of a coin.

My Grand Aunt was mugged. She was very frail and in her upper 90s at the time. She lived, the guy caved in her cheek bone and temple about an inch.

Remember: Flip of a coin.

What you goin' do?

 

[38SnubFan]

If you draw, you fire.

I disagree, unless death is imminent (meaning if you don't draw and IMMEDIATELY fire you're definitely going to die). In the scenario presented, I feel that after I drew and presented my weapon, I have the responsibility to allow them to flee or "give up" to the authorities. However, if they futher advance or otherwise further pursue the armed robbery, then I fire.

Riverrat...truce accepted. I was going to post in reply to how you replied to me (hmm...that was a keyboard-full), but a lot of posters already made my point for me. So no, I'm not trigger-happy or otherwise anxious to shoot someone - I'm happy to only shoot B-27s at the range. What I was saying, is that if I'm threatened with lethal force, I will respond by PRESENTING lethal force. Again, as I just said above, I will ONLY shoot if the BGs fail to flee or give up.

RileyMC, I should say I can only agree partially with your statement. The mindset of being prepared to shoot if you draw your weapon is a crucial survival technique of a lethal encounter. However, reality and statistics prove that presentation is enough to stop such an encounter. Again, that doesn't mean that should such an event happen to me, that the gun won't be loaded, the front sight "on target", and my finger on the trigger.

-38SnubFan

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Can't agree, LT. If you depend on the 'presentation' of a weapon when threatened with lethal force, you're taking an unecessary risk IMO. If you draw, you fire. Otherwise leave the weapon holstered. YMMV.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Wrong.

Not right.

Really.

If the threat of force resolves the incident, so much the better.

Why do you think better than 90% of DGUs involve no shots fired?

You are preaching a dangerous doctrine. Please reconsider.

 

[R.H. Lee]

If the threat of force resolves the incident, so much the better.

Why do you think better than 90% of DGUs involve no shots fired?

You are preaching a dangerous doctrine. Please reconsider.

Well, maybe your reflexes are better than mine. Maybe you're willing to draw and wait to see if the attacker with the knife a within a few feet of you retreats or strikes. If I am fearful enough to draw in the first place, that means danger is imminent. I'm not willing to give the attacker a second chance. Dangerous? For who? Hesitation to employ lethal force against lethal force is the dangerous doctrine IMO.

 

[The Rabbi]

Boys, boys.
I think these things are situation-specific. If he is in arms length and getting closer then by all means draw and fire. Me personally, I would prefer to draw a little sooner than that and hope that ended the confrontation. If not I still have the option of pulling the trigger. Honestly I would rather have the assailant go running off into the night than my laying him out on the garage floor. But if it comes to that, then it comes to that.