I need a thorough education on rifles

[SShooterZ]

Hello everyone:

I'm mainly a shotgun guy. In fact, if you look in my safe, you'll probably find over 20 scatterguns.

My problem is, I've been tasked by some of the local farmers to rid their land of coyotes. So, I started looking for rifles. I've read and read, forums, articles, opinions, catalogs... You name it!

Well, all I've done is really confuse myself as to what would fit the bill for me.

I think I've narrowed it down to either a Savage or CZ. I do not like synthetic stocks and would much prefer a wood laminate stock. I also have zero knowledge on scopes. I've got a Weaver on my Marlin .22 that appears to be a pretty decent scope but I don't know chit-from-shinola when it comes to optics.

So, my plea to you fellow THRers is to steer me in the right direction. Other than my Dad's Marlin 336 .30-.30, I have NO experience with centerfire rifles.

I would appreciate any opinions, warnings, thoughts, experiences, etc. I would truly be grateful. I'm not too concerned about cost but I don't want to go crazy.

I was thinking of going to a .243 should I ever decide to deer hunt but I've heard good things about .22-250 also. But who knows, I surely don't!

I also have no idea where would be a good place to purchase said rifle and/or optics either. I know places like MidwayUSA have accessories but I don't know who offers great rifle pricing out there.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

A Remington 700 in .22-250 or .308 would not only get the job done easily, but would be alot of fun in the process.

If you want some good optics advice try opticstalk.com

Whats your price range by the way?

 

[Monkeybear]

My inexpert opinion - Remington 700 in .308

 

[12GA00buck]

I'd prefer CZ or Savage to Remington, with savage coming up first. I'd get one chambered in 30-06, add a 3-9 variable scope, and a good shooting sling. I suggest 30-06 because I'm a one rifle for everything man; for just coyotes though, a "varmint cartrige",.223, .22-250, etc, would serve better. Depending on the terrain, a bipod and spotting scope could be useful. Sounds like a great way to get some target practice in, don’t have too much fun. I hope you process the pelts, coyote fur is really nice. THR library has a link to a predator hunting website. For general rifle education I'd recommend reading "The Art of the Rifle" by Jeff Cooper. Its primarily about general technique, for specific caliber recomendation's, I've always liked Jack O' Connor's books.

 

[Limeyfellow]

If you are not going to use it often however the Remington might be a tad over price, though yes they are great guns and I have one in 22-250 myself. 22-250 is a great round for what you want. So would be the .223 or the .243 in eliminating coyotes.

CZs are fine rifles but tend to be on the bit of the expensive side. They make great .22s in particular. I not used a centerfire one however.

The savage 11 or 12 series (as a left hander I loved the 12FLV) are fine rifles. May not be as refined on the finish but alot cheaper and you can stick on a accutrigger and be just as if not more accurate than a more expensive off the shelf brand.

Theres plenty of other great choices such as a Ruger No.1 or M-77, Browning A-bolt (costly but awesome) that will also do the job. Depends on your price range.

For optics I would recommend a decent Leupold or Burris. One of the better Bushnells might work too for a cheaper option, though weaver, barska and a bunch of others will all work well. You want something variable powered and I normally pick something in the range of 8-32x40. I wouldn't go really under 4 or 6x power for the little buggers.

.308 would certainly work like has been suggested and more than overkill for a coyote. Of course I taken my share of them with large rounds. One I hit with a 180 grain .303 British round blew the whole back end away, though it was going after the love of my life, the dog. I just hope the wife doesn't see that.

My recommendation though as above if you don't want to overkill in the budget would be a Savage 12 with an accutrigger, probrobly in stainless, in either .223 or 22-250 (the first is a cheaper round to practice with, the second shoots flatter and faster). Scope is pretty much up to you but make sure you invest in a good mount too.

Of course you could just invest in an old military surplus and it more than take care of them for a fraction of the cost usually, but the Savage is so nice.

 

[SShooterZ]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated.

My total budget would probably in the $800 range for rifle and scope.

I've gone to a local Gander Mountain and shouldered a few different models to see which I liked best and which fit me best. I really liked the feel of the CZ 550 American and the Savage American too.

You all have me thinking though about the .308 if the ammo is that plentiful and inexpensive. I was thinking .223 at one point but for some reason, the .243 has me pondering. I have a friend that's looking at a .22-250 so I might wait and see how his shoots to see if I like it.

When you say get a good set of mounts for the scope, what do you prefer or suggest? My uneducated self always thought mounts were mounts. As usual, always something to learn.

I'll probably end up reloading my own rounds down the line too. I'm pretty comfortable with shotshell reloading so I think I could pick up the cartridge habit. (or should I say addiction)

I'm going to check out the websites too. Thanks!

 

[Mr White]

Are you allowed to hunt coyotes in IL with a rifle? I know yo can only hunt deer there with a slug gun. Does the same apply to yotes? You might want to check on that if you already haven't before you go out and buy a rifle.

 

[SShooterZ]

I thought of that too.. So I did some homework before I went on my quest.

From the IDNR web page:

Q. Can I use a centerfire rifle for hunting in Illinois? Or handguns?

A. Under Illinois law, the following species may be taken with a rifle or handgun: coyote, striped skunk, woodchuck, squirrel, rabbit, raccoon, opossum and red and gray fox. We do not regulate the caliber of handgun or rifle that may be used; except on stateowned or managed areas, which normally allow only the use of shotguns or .22 caliber rimfire rifles. Squirrel, furbearers and woodchuck hunters may use a .17 caliber rimfire rifle on some state-owned or managed areas. No rifles may be possessed in the field, however, during firearm deer season except that trappers may carry a .22 rimfire rifle to dispatch animals during firearm deer season. Certain handguns are lawful for deer hunting (see pages 11 & 14 for regulations). In addition to the Department's site specific regulations, many cities or counties may have local ordinances prohibiting the use of certain firearms. It is important, therefore, that you also check with your local police agencies before you hunt. At all times when in possession of firearms, hunters must also comply with the other firearms regulations as outlined in the Illinois Criminal Code.

This will be private property so I assume I'm OK.

 

[TimboKhan]

I recommend that you order, and read, Jeff Coopers book "The Art of the Rifle". That one book will give you an excellent base of knowledge from which to work.

 

[Blackfork]

Shotgun only hunting Laws.

Hmmmm. So it's OK to shoot SOME game with a highpower rifle in Illinois....but not deer? I always thought the "shotgun only" laws for deer season were aimed at repressing shooters, not safety.

I bet if you ran the safety stats, shotguns wouldn't be any safer than 308s. Just guessing.

 

[Blackfork]

Coyote guns

I'd shoot coyotes with a scoped AR flattop or a .223 bolt gun. 243 at the max. I'd borrow the rifle as well. I'd shoot Black Hills 69 gr or 77 gr reloads.

 

[ScottsGT]

No rifles may be possessed in the field, however, during firearm deer season except that trappers may carry a .22 rimfire rifle to dispatch animals during firearm deer season.

Sounds like a rifle is no good on coyotes during deer season. Might think about a .22 Magnum so you're not in violation of laws. Then you need to make sure what defines a "trapper" in your state. Maybe a special license?

 

[ACP230]

If you are hunting close to houses you may want to avoid .308s, .22-250s etc, in favor of a quieter rifle.
A .22 Hornet might be all the noise some residents would tolerate. A .223 is louder than the Hornet, but quieter than larger caliber rifles.

Rifles in .22 caliber with light bullets can make the risk of ricochetts less too.
A .308 bullet might skip off of ground, or hang together enough after penetrating a coyote to be dangerous to humans, livestock, buildings, or equipment. That could end your coyote hunting quickly. (My .250 Savage with 100 grain bullets has shot through most of the deer I've killed with it).

I've shot one coyote, with a .30-06, so am no expert, but small caliber "varmint rifles" are called that for a reason. My yote was taken in a ravine where the 150 grain bullet went right into a hill side behind it. I don't know if I'd use the '06 on coyotes in more open areas.

 

[MrDig]

H&R Handi in .243 with a 24 Heavy Barrel is a good choice too. I own one and love it. Took a deer with it this fall and now am set to do some Varmint shooting over the winter mo's.
I chose .243 over .223 and 22-250 for the following reasons
.243 less expensive than 22-250 specificly if you don't reload.
.243 has generaly better ballistics with a 65gr Boat Tail Hollow Point than .223
58 and 65 gr .243 bullets slightly better Varment Bullets than 55 gr .223
.243 legal for deer in MN .223 is not.

If you haven't spent your money yet I would seriously look at the H&R SB2's
with heavy barrels. $225.00-$275.00 depending on where you buy.
add a Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 for about $125.00, and still have lots of jing for a Bi-Pod and tons of ammo
I have not been disappointed with my Handi and would recommend them to anyone.
If I chose the Savage I would get the 12 series in .243 with a Bi-Pod and a good Scope.
If I chose .308 I would get the Savage 10FP

 

[SShooterZ]

I recommend that you order, and read, Jeff Coopers book "The Art of the Rifle". That one book will give you an excellent base of knowledge from which to work.

You're the third or fourth person that suggested that to me so I went ahead and ordered it from Amazon. Looking forward to doing some reading.

The area I'm hunting is 90% farmland with an occasional farmhouse dotted here and there. In terms of the gunfire, you can hear people pounding waterfowl all through the hunting season and then there's the trap range not too far away. We've also used this farm for target practice with shotguns and pistols several times. Just not rifles...Yet. I do know they hunt deer out there in season too so Im not too worried about the neighbors in regards to the noise.

I'm also not too worried about deer season because I'm usually hunting waterfowl or pheasants during that time anyway. What's nice in IL at least is that you can hunt coyotes year round.

Very valid points though on the calibers and I appreciate them being brought to the table. I think the .243 is probably what I will go with. One of my buddies is looking at the .22-250 though so I thought I would throw it out there. I've entertained the thought of hunting deer, just haven't put too much thought into it. If I know me, and I'm sure many of us suffer from the same disease, I'll buy my coyote rifle for "just a few hunts" and then next thing I know I'll have a safe full of rifles. That's what happened to my shotguns. Bought a gun for trap shooting "just so I could practice for hunting" and the next thing I know, 20+ shotguns later and 4 reloading machines I'm shooting trap every other weekend.

I'm also knowledgeable enough to be not too dangerous and risk a shot that could have dangerous repercussions. No animal is worth it. From what we're planning to do, we would be sitting on the top of a small inclined piece of land and shooting down at the coyotes. All behind that is a small ravine and farm land so even a ricochet wouldn't go near any dwellings unless it carried 2 plus miles. (Is that possible? I really don't know).

I know the H&R guns are nearly indestructible (I know people who've tried and still can't blow them up) but the Savage is starting to get my attention more and more.

One other newbie question I have is this. I've heard of people swapping out barrels on the Savages to use different calibers. My question is, wouldn't you have to swap out the receiver, bolt and everything? Or does a short action and long action handle all the calibers in their prospective categories? How about magaizines? Wouldn't those need to be changed also? If so, is it worth it?

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[MrDig]

Swapping barrels would work with certain calibers and not others: .243 / .308 as both are short action Calibers. 7mm and 30.06 are another example in long action Calibers. Not sure about headspacing and all that other stuff. Rimmed vs Non-Rimmed brass may also be a consideration since the nonrimmed requires a longer extreactor. What is the skinny on this? I know its possible but what are the pitfalls.

 

[Legionnaire]

If you want to swap calibers, look at the Thompson/Center Encore. That rifle in .243 would be a great option for intermediate game ranging from varmints to whitetail.

Any deer gun will be overkill for coyotes, though. If coyotes are the game, I'd prefer a .223. Probably a CZ 527 American, since you like the CZ. It's a great walkaround rifle.

Another great book, unfortunately now out of print, is The Rifles, the Cartridges, and the Game by Clay Harvey. Even if a bit dated, it is an excellent reference on matching cartridges to game.

 

[Froggy]

I think the .243 is probably what I will go with.

That would be my choice. The .223 is a fine cartridge, but the heavier bullet in the .243 will come in handy on coyotes. As for rifle, a Savage model 11G series can be had new for around $400, leaving enough in your budget for a scope. If you want a heavier varmint barrel, the Savage model 12 is a good choice. Around here the preference on coyotes is the sporter-weight barrels rather than varmint-weight, but from your description of where you will be shooting from, the varmint barrel might suit you better.

As for scope, its not a long range varminter scope, but I'm growing very fond of the Burris Fullfield II with Ballistic Plex reticle. Put one on my "all around" rifle about a month ago and am so happy with it I just bought a second one to go on my deer rifle. Can't say enough good things about it. Got it here at Natchez Shooters' Supply for $170.

Sounds like a rifle is no good on coyotes during deer season.

Good catch, ScottsGT.

 

[Froggy]

My question is, wouldn't you have to swap out the receiver, bolt and everything? Or does a short action and long action handle all the calibers in their prospective categories? How about magaizines? Wouldn't those need to be changed also? If so, is it worth it?

The mag for my .308 is labeled ".308 Win / .243 Win". Since it is a "single stack" type mag I reckon it is interchangable.

The receiver won't have to be changed. You might have to change the face end of the bolt, but Savage makes their bolts in a way that allows you to change just that end (with extractor) without having to swap out the whole bolt.

 

[Mr White]

Good choice on the .243. My impression was always that it was kind of the 'standard' coyote caliber, if there could be such a thing. It just seems that more yote hunters I talk to use a .243 than anything else. Its also a good varmit caliber with 70 grain bullets or lighter.

Its a good caliber for deer as well.... I think. I just carried one around the woods the past 2 days w/o getting a chance to test it. Stupid Game Commission! Their Deer Eradication Progran is a smashing success. :banghead:

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Not to muddy the water . . .

I know a guy locally (Nevada) that hunts coyotes with a 336C (in 30-30) using Remington Express Accelerator ammo (55 grain .224 slug using a sabot, fired from a standard case).

Good performance out past 150 yards.

The downside of this is a) Accelerator is a tad expensive, b) you would miss out on getting a new rifle.

I'm finding the Kel-tec SU-16A quite useable out to 150 yards (using cheap Nikon glass). Impressive exit wounds on milk jugs.

However, another guy I know really likes his .204 Ruger for this kind of work.

See http://www.204ruger.com/ for lots of information.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Overpower....

I would use a .22 mag or a mach17. A well placed shot right behind the scull will do the trick.

 

[SShooterZ]

I would use a .22 mag or a mach17. A well placed shot right behind the scull will do the trick.

You're assuming I know how to shoot.

I actually saw a Savage MK II Stainless Steel 17 Mach 2 locally for $200. I was seriously tempted but didn't think it would be remotely close enough to knocking down a coyote on a consistent basis.

 

[ScottsGT]

I actually saw a Savage MK II Stainless Steel 17 Mach 2 locally for $200. I was seriously tempted but didn't think it would be remotely close enough to knocking down a coyote on a consistent basis.

Don't write the .17 off as too weak of a round. It has a LOT of velocity and can do some damage. And you would be back in a rimfire where you could carry it during deer season and take out the coyotes then too.

 

[robctwo]

I recently bought the Savage 10FP in .223 and .308, and the CZ 527 in .204 Ruger. Synthetic stocks on the Savages which I upgraded. Have been shooting them at the range. The heavy barrels would be good for shooting from a stand, not good for walking around the hills all day. With reasonable Nikon scopes I have around $800-900 in each of them.

I have had a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .243 for close to 30 years. Have killed a bunch of deer with it. Have never shot at a coyote with anything. Might start this year.