I need advice: Changing my SHTF rifle.

[Neo-Luddite]

Amprecon--now THAT was funny! At least their rifles don't have the 'WARNING-this is a gun' thing stamped on them yet.

To the point--an AK varriant is a fine emergency/SHTF rifle. Get 1 (or better) get 2 identical. Don't sell the AR unless you must----if it works well, and you have some supplies and ammo for it, it will be a wonderful thing to have in an emergency to arm a family member or friend with in pinch. Or, a magnificant barter type item for extended emergency.


BTW--that sounds like a nice Colt you have----if you shoot an AK 'better', I would get a shooting coach---that AR should be a far-sight more accurate than most AK's past the 300 yard line. Not being a smart a$$ mind you---I'll never shoot 'better' with my favorite rifle (Garand) than with an AR- type even though I want to. Training helps a lot.

 

[kesmed2001]

WarriorTalk has a ton of threads re: the AK as a CDR (Civilian Defense Rifle)/SHTF rifle.

Don't feel the need to justify why you want an AK-47 over Model ABC in Caliber XYZ. Everyone needs to go through that selection process on their own.

I prefer stamped AKs over milled for weight considerations. Arsenal SLR-107A1R or SLR-107CR would be my pick.

I like AK-47s but will readily admit a liking for AK-74s.

Good luck!

 

[benEzra]

But now that I'm a little more informed, the AR platform seems to have so many more options available. I'm lusting over a flat-top AR with flip up sights and a mounted optic of some kind but my wife would probably beat me with it if I showed up at home with another gun.

Do be aware that any AK with a siderail mount can be easily fitted with a high-quality optic for $180 or so. The rifle already has backup sights, and siderail scopes hold zero so they can be removed and replaced without having to sight it in again.

Here's my SAR-1 with a Kobra collimator sight (similar in concept to an Eotech, just not holographic). Russian milspec, waterproof, etc. and $179 plus tax from Tantal.

Details and more photos here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=249285

An optic of any sort makes the AK platform a LOT more user-friendly, IMHO. I think the main weak point of the AK design is the short sight radius.

Another thing that makes the AK more user-friendly is being a friendlier user, i.e. learn to work with the rifle's ergonomic setup instead of fighting it. For example, instead of inserting/changing the magazine with the left hand and then chambering a round with the right hand, you can insert the mag with the left hand and then chamber a round with the same hand (once you learn it, it's easy). Video demo here (thanks to AR-15.com for the link). Also, he's holding the fresh magazine sideways and flat, like a wing, and whacking the mag release with the front of the fresh mag, which works well and is easy to do. That AK also appears to be wearing an Eotech on a forward rail, FWIW.

You can get accessory rails, etc. from www.tapco.com if you want to hang a flashlight, forward-mounted red dot, etc. on an AK.

Having said that, AR's are great carbines if you can swing one. My dream rifle is a Rock River Elite CAR A4; little more accurate than an AK, and a little more finicky as well, by all accounts. But an AK with optic gives you probably 90% of the AR's functionality at 50% of the price.

 

[AStone]

Yet, some of us are just getting around to 1894C.

Maybe a hundred years late,
but better late than never.

And lighter than ...

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

The Antibubba, I disagree.
The AK is an excellent deer rifle, IF you buy a quality, accurate one. 7.62x39 is a 300 yard .30-30, at least in my opinon.
It's also easier to "master" than a lever action, and has a higher capacity.

 

[nemoaz]

Yup. Level III is rated to stop multiple .223, 7.62x39, and even 7.62x51/.308 Winchester.

Those are standard rounds, not AP rounds. You will see that the 5.56 green tip rounds and other armor piercing rounds are listed as Level IV on this chart which seems to mean that level III will NOT stop it.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

 

[mustanger98]

The AK is an excellent deer rifle, IF you buy a quality, accurate one. 7.62x39 is a 300 yard .30-30, at least in my opinon.

I don't doubt that in some cases a 7.62x39 loaded with softpoints will kill a deer. But for my money and uses, I still favor the .30-30 levergun and the 150gr and 170gr softpoints in either Winchester PowerPoint, Remington CoreLokt, or a handloaded Hornady SP. If I intend to shoot 300yds, I'll sight in accordingly. Also, there's the new Hornady LeverEvolution which is designed for this job.

It's also easier to "master" than a lever action, and has a higher capacity.

Bull. I grew up with a lever action rifle. I shoot lever action rifles regularly. The first time I picked up an AK 15 years ago, I wondered how anybody used one. I've long since learned how, but I don't like 'em. Even the M1 Garand I favor over the AK is much more simple to learn, but more advanced than the levergun. And how often are you going to use a 30rd mag, and every round in that mag to shoot one deer. In GA, any semiauto over 5rds mag capacity is illegal for deer. That last deer I shot with my Winchester .30-30... that was last Thanksgiving... was shot out at near 100yds and he was just as dead just as fast. One shot, one kill.

 

[benEzra]

Those are standard rounds, not AP rounds. You will see that the 5.56 green tip rounds and other armor piercing rounds are listed as Level IV on this chart which seems to mean that level III will NOT stop it.

They're not rated for AP, because that's the way the rating is written. However, if it will stop a round of .308 Winchester, even steel-core 7.62x39mm or black tip .223 would probably be unlikely to get through. Level III will definitely stop green-tip (62gr) .223/5.56, which at close range penetrates less than 55gr plain ball (green tip is considered ball, not AP).

FWIW, that is precisely why AP .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 was placed under the 1986 Kevlar-piercing handgun ammo ban--because of the worry that well designed AP ammo in those calibers might be able to penetrate some Level III armor.

Still, the fact remains that with civilian-legal ammo, you're not penetrating Level III armor with .223, 7.62x39mm, or .308.

And how often are you going to use a 30rd mag, and every round in that mag to shoot one deer. In GA, any semiauto over 5rds mag capacity is illegal for deer. That last deer I shot with my Winchester .30-30... that was last Thanksgiving... was shot out at near 100yds and he was just as dead just as fast. One shot, one kill.

Who's talking about hunting with 30-round magazines?

Here's an AK in hunting configuration:

4x scope and 5-round hunting magazine. Legal for hunting in any state that allows hunting with a Remington 7400. At 100 yards, a deer can't tell the difference between a .30-30 150gr softpoint and a 7.62x39mm 154gr softpoint.

 

[mustanger98]

benEzra, Re-read "Nameless Hobo"'s post #55 which says...

It's also easier to "master" than a lever action, and has a higher capacity.

Your "hunting configuration" is no different to an M-14 in hunting configuration, or the Remington 7400 you mentioned... 5rd mag and maybe whichever scope is preferred. Nameless Hobo's comment implied he was thinking to outfit better for deer with more magazine capacity.

 

[ar154life]

either one, but i love the AR15 platform!

 

[leadcounsel]

Ptr 91

Accurate, ergonomic, affordable (around $700 used), cheap mags (less than $3 - I have 110 mags for only $80), and the ideal caliber for anti personnel, range, accuracy, penetration and hunting N. American medium and large game. Really the best of all worlds. Fairly common ammo, although all ammo is becoming pricey...

 

[benEzra]

Your "hunting configuration" is no different to an M-14 in hunting configuration, or the Remington 7400 you mentioned... 5rd mag and maybe whichever scope is preferred. Nameless Hobo's comment implied he was thinking to outfit better for deer with more magazine capacity.

My bad, I didn't notice that. I agree that capacity is irrelevant in a hunting scenario, though I'd still lean toward the AK just because that's what I like and own; lever guns are also cool, though, and I'm not going to say that an AK would be better for anyone other than me; to each his/her own.

Optics (whether magnified or not) definitely help, but that's true of any rifle with a short sight radius, IMO.

 

[mustanger98]

ben Ezra, Personal preference is one thing I won't argue with, within reason. And I think we're still within reason here.

Optics (whether magnified or not) definitely help, but that's true of any rifle with a short sight radius, IMO.

While I generally lean towards aperture sights with some use for scopes, I haven't used an unmagnified optic... yet. Now, this one gun shop owner I do business with, he uses red dots and seems to really like them. He's 50+ years old and says he never was that good with a sidearm (I know we're talking rifles in this thread) and a 5MOA red dot helps him hit things he couldn't hit with just plain sights. I do agree that a short sight radius can be a problem with any weapon, rifle or sidearm. At the same time, I know I like my 94 and 94AE carbines with the 16" barrels. But my main Winchester .30-30 I hunt with has a 22" barrel and Lyman #2 tang sight, so I lengthened the sight radius some.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

benEzra, Re-read "Nameless Hobo"'s post #55 which says...


Quote:
It's also easier to "master" than a lever action, and has a higher capacity.

Your "hunting configuration" is no different to an M-14 in hunting configuration, or the Remington 7400 you mentioned... 5rd mag and maybe whichever scope is preferred. Nameless Hobo's comment implied he was thinking to outfit better for deer with more magazine capacity.

Now you're just being silly.

I was giving benefits of the AK as a SHTF rifle. NEVER did I once even imply that you needed a 30 rounder to take bambi.

However, in a SHTF, you might need 30 rounds to take out the guy who thinks he should have your supplies or your wife, or just wants to kill you for the fun of it. This is where 30 rounds shine over the capacity of a .30-30 levergun.

As a side note, You can also be damned sure in a SHTF I'm hunting with a 30 round magazine in place, loaded with soft points of course. If I run into anyone with the same idea, I want to be ready for him and whoever's with him.

 

[mustanger98]

Now you're just being silly.

I was giving benefits of the AK as a SHTF rifle. NEVER did I once even imply that you needed a 30 rounder to take bambi.

Nameless Hobo, Refer back to your post #55 in which you said:

The Antibubba, I disagree.
The AK is an excellent deer rifle, IF you buy a quality, accurate one. 7.62x39 is a 300 yard .30-30, at least in my opinon.
It's also easier to "master" than a lever action, and has a higher capacity.

I don't see anything in your post #55 that said "SHTF" or somebody's trying to kill you for your wife and/or supplies or for fun. I saw you comparing your AK to a .30-30 levergun and said "deer rifle". For you to counter my comments the way you did... now that's silly.

 

[leadcounsel]

Ptr91

Here's mine that I mentioned earlier.

110 mags which cost about $1 each. The rifle was around $850 with modifications.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

We're discussing the AK as a SHTF rifle. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but when the thread's titled "Changing my SHTF rifle." I assume it would be easy to realize that I'm speaking in terms of a SHTF situation.

For some reason, whenever we're in the same thread, we always end up arguing over something or other. Usually something totally stupid.

Oh, and for the record, my Saiga is my deer rifle.

 

[ROMAK IV]

AK better for SHTF!

Anything an AR will do short of those that hit prarie dogs at 1000 yards, an AK will do as well, better, and considerably cheaper. I also switched my SHTF rifle, and I switched it to an AK. I read a new story where the Bush administration was buying arms and ammunition for Afghanistan to stockpile a ten year supply! The fear was that the Democrats would or will take over and abandon the country! I thought, well what about me! What will I do if the Democrats take over? It was then that I saw the need for a ten year supply. But how? 308 and 223 are expensive, even when you can find them. But whay about 7.62 x 54R? So, I bought a ROMAK III for less than an AR and slowly aquired a ten year supply of ammunition. That's much less than $2000 total.

So let's address these side issues about SHTF situations. The worst thing about a SHTF is the unexpected nature of the situation. I can guarantee you there will be no Zombies, but no one can guarantee, that there won't be situations where you will really NEED a long range or a rifle with a superior penetration capability. Really if you don't have enough ammunition to where you HAVE to scrounge off of dead bodies, you're SOL anyway. You will probably need a 40 caliber rifle. Hunt deer? Is that a priority as well? How useful would that be for a dirty bomb attack? Probably have better luck hunting cows. I don't think 223 is a good "cow" gun. What if you "HAVE" to stop a vehicle? Will a 223 suffice? Maybe the other guy, who didn't even have a gun before, will use a stolen Suburban to steal yours? Sure a 50 BMG would even better, but a battle rifle caliber would be respectable. The way to survive a DHTF situation is to avoid conflict, or at least minimize it as much as possible and take advantage of your specific advantages, (like power and range) over potential adversaries. Soft points? I have heard "excuses" about the AR and 223, where soft points are seen as a way to negate the obvious disadvantages of the 223. Well we all can play that game. put soft points in your AK! In fact, I consider 7N1 ammunition superior to soft points in lethality. That particular round has a steel core with a hollow cavity and a sliding plug. The thing is, when it hits a target, the plug slides forward and destablizes the bullet. You have everything! The steel core helps penetration, the sliding plug make the bullet perform like the legendary 5.56 bullet, tumbling through the soft tissues of the target, except with twice the energy, at least twice the cross section, and three times the weight. Carry more ammunition? Which is more important? The amount of ammunition you carry or how you use it? Will you be the one with twice as much 223, shot trying to get close enough to take out the guy with the full power rifle? And even the ROMAK III is a 600 yard rifle, an AR is not. I could see the justification for perhaps an AR-10 type rifle but that will be more expensive and I would really go over the rifle and wring out any potential problems. (A good thing to do with ANY SHTF rifle) Even optics are cheaper with an AK.

A Saiga is also a good choice. I have a Saiga 308 and a Saiga 12, and both are real bargains. A Saiga 308 would be a decent second choice, IF or WHEN, higher capacity magazines and 308 become more available and cheaper. I have managed to snag a single 20 round magazine for the 308, but it was difficult. Saiga 12ga. 10 shell mags, are easier to find. I see no reason to autiomatically convert a Saiga to a pisol grip. I bought my 308 that way, but the Saiga 12 seems fine like it is.

I also would recommend Armory USA made AK's. I happen to own two, a 12.5 inch barreled AK pistol and an Underfolder with a 1.6 mm receiver. They cost a little more, but less than an Arsenal AK. I lucked out, I got a used but not fired, SA 93 with milled receiver for $400. It is quite good and accurate as well, but all lack the side mount for AK optics, which a regular Romanian AK or a Saiga wil possess. As far as "ergonomics" go, I happen to like the ergonomics of all but the most common AK. When I bought my WASR -10, it was a bit unacceptable to have the buttstock sitting on top of my shoulder when looking through the sight. I changed the butstock to an RPK type, and it is great. The Saigas and the ROMAK are good, and so is the underfolder. The SA93 came with an ATI druganov stock and it feels good as well.

 

[mustanger98]

Nameless Hobo, I don't know if you noticed or not, but it took you 23 days to come back with post #67.

Your Saiga may be your deer rifle and this surely is a SHTF thread, but it remains that your post #55, on July 14th- last month, never said anything about self/family/property defense. It does remain that you only compared an AK and a levergun as deer rifles according to your own opinion. But then, all any of us have is our own opinion based on our own experience and observation.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

So my responce is lessened because I didn't post it 5 minutes after you posted? Sorry that I don't spend every second of the day going over thread after thread on this forum.

Would it make you happy if I edited my post by putting a line of "I'M TALKING ABOUT SHTF A SHTF SITUATION! I'M TALKING ABOUT A SHTF SITUATION!," or would you continue to waste both my and your time posting poor attempts to discredit me?

 

[mustanger98]

So my responce is lessened because I didn't post it 5 minutes after you posted?

All I did was observe a time lapse. Now, if we'd both posted replies in 5mins or less every time, everybody would figure neither of us has a life.

Would it make you happy if I edited my post by putting a line of "I'M TALKING ABOUT SHTF A SHTF SITUATION! I'M TALKING ABOUT A SHTF SITUATION!," or would you continue to waste both my and your time posting poor attempts to discredit me?

It's not that your "TALKING ABOUT SHTF A SHTF SITUATION! I'M TALKING ABOUT A SHTF SITUATION!" nearly so much as how your comparison relates to such a situation in reality. How many of us must confront thieves, poachers, rapists, and murderers while hunting? Yet idiots are out there regardless of SHTF or not. And how many levergunners consider themselves unable to self-defend because we're not carrying 30rd Saigas and AK's. Poor attempts to discredit you? Whatever.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

Where did I say unable to defend themselves? Even through the history of effectiveness of .30-30 leverguns, you have to admit an AK with 30 round is better suited for defense than a .30-30.

Furthermore, your average wackjob in the woods won't compare at all to what you'll see in a SHTF situation.

You make it sound like I'm some kind of gunshop commmando. I'm not. I merely state facts as I see them.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Is this thread going to get back on topic sometime soon or should I close it and those interested in continuing the poo flinging can do it via PM?

 

[Father Knows Best]

I'll try and get it back on track....

I agree with this statement:

I prefer stamped AKs over milled for weight considerations.

I have an Arsenal SA M-7S (milled receiver, 7.62x39, side rail). It's a fine rifle, and I love it. It's more than is needed for defensive purposes, though. The milled receiver Arsenals are heavy (about a pound more than a comparable stamped receiver) and expensive (sell for $800-1200 around here). For my money, your best bet would be a cheap, ugly AK that works. You can spend the money you save on ammo, mags and optics.

That said(tm), here's a pic of my SA M-7S that I bought for $395 two years ago (yes, I know I stole it). She is a fantastic rifle -- reliable, accurate, and quite pretty for a "black" rifle. I mounted a Kobra red dot using the side rail, and I've been very happy with it:

 

[GunTech]

I don't doubt that in some cases a 7.62x39 loaded with softpoints will kill a deer. But for my money and uses, I still favor the .30-30 levergun and the 150gr and 170gr softpoints in either Winchester PowerPoint, Remington CoreLokt, or a handloaded Hornady SP.

7.62x39mm loaded with soft point spizters will generally outperform factory 30-30 in the 150gn range. The spitzer has a much better BC than the typical flat nosed 30-30, and while the 30-30 starts off with more energy at the muzzle, at 100 yards the 7.62x39mm overtakes it.

I don't use an AK for hunting, but I do have a CZ-527 in 7.62x39mm. It's just under 6 pounds, and far more accurate than any lever gun 30-30 lever gun I've tried.

Thanks for pointing out the use of softpoint ammo in the AK. I've been ignoring the AK because it's marginal stopping power with ball. But if one uses a good spitzer soft point, the AK should be a very effective rifle out to 250 yards or so.