General purpose 5.56 rifle, can't decide between....

[streetstang67]

I've been looking at buying a 5.56 rifle for a while now. It started when my brother got an AK and I loved it, but ammo became impossible to find a few months ago...then my cousin got an AR and that kicks ass too. After a little research on AK's and AR-15's, I also wanted to consider my other options and I found some info on similar rifles like the AR-180, the M17 bullpup, the mini-14, and SKS. Now I'm stuck between all of them.

My limited knowledge on those rifles is this:
AK is reliable, but the sights on it suck
AR-15 is nice, but considerably more expensive
AR-180 seems to be an AR-15 style rifle with the gas system of an AK
M17 is compact but the sights on it suck
Mini-14 is more of a civilian weapon, but not very accurate
SKS is similar to AK but much longer and slightly heavier

Now I know whatever I buy I'll have to modify somewhat in order to make it perfect for me and my needs/wants. I want a rifle that shoots 5.56 simply because I think that will remain easy to find, but if 7.62x39 is available I will consider that. I want this rifle to be accurate, and have sights that allow me to shoot it accurately. I want to be able to shoot this rifle over and over and over without it heating up too much. I don't want to have to baby this rifle, its a tool not a showpiece. Lastly, money IS an object, reasonable price is a must, but because I will be shooting this way more than my other rifle (Rem 700, .30-06), it has to last.

Please help me in this seemingly impossible decision.

All advice is welcome, wanted, and appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Technosavant]

The SKS is NOT a 5.56mm.
The AKs usually aren't, and one chambered in 5.56 is not much cheaper than an AR.
Mini 14 is also not much cheaper, and the AR would be far more accurate and have more accessories available (not to mention magazines that can hold 30 rounds).

I'd save up the cash and get an AR if you really want the 5.56mm round.

 

[Soybomb]

http://www.kel-tec.com/su16c.html ?

 

[Ndenway]

everybody needs an AR and an AK, so get both as your funds allow.

 

[rbernie]

Lastly, money IS an object, reasonable price is a must, but because I will be shooting this way more than my other rifle (Rem 700, .30-06), it has to last.

One of the greatest features of the AR platform (other than its ergonomics) is that it's quite amenable to being rebarreled and otherwise kept in fighting trim without the need for a machine shop or a specialized gunsmith.

 

[roscoe]

The AKs usually aren't, and one chambered in 5.56 is not much cheaper than an AR.

Unless it is a Saiga, in which case it is accurate and $300 or so.

 

[trickyasafox]

a real simple way to get a reasonably priced AR is to piece one together. get a stripped lower and a 'kit' the kits now often can be found with assembled uppers. depending on the transfer on the lower, you could get this put together all said and done for 550. still a fair bit of cash, but a nice rifle is your reward. and when you do it like this you can space out your cash outlay.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

My limited knowledge on those rifles is this:
AK is reliable, but the sights on it suck
AR-15 is nice, but considerably more expensive

Kind of sort of. AK's are no longer the $300 values they used to be. A decent AK is pretty much only an Arsenal or a Saiga that is professionally converted. That's $700 ball park. Chinese, VEPR's and others are pretty much extinct unless you find one used but in barely used condition.

AR-180 seems to be an AR-15 style rifle with the gas system of an AK

AR-180 isn't nearly the standard that the AK or the AR is. If you're looking for something easy to find parts for and to customize...this isn't the best choice.

M17 is compact but the sights on it suck
Mini-14 is more of a civilian weapon, but not very accurate

Stay away from this. It is expensive, and does compare to an AR in anyway, shape or form.

SKS is similar to AK but much longer and slightly heavier

I'd consider it a lot heavier. AK's aren't typically your VEPR variety with 1.6mm receivers (instead of 1mm) and with thick barrels (almost HBARs). They are suppose to be fairly light weapons.

Now I know whatever I buy I'll have to modify somewhat in order to make it perfect for me and my needs/wants.

The AR is king here - with the AK being second. The AK is only really limited in optics mounting solutions. All of the various mounting options for optics have some type of drawback. You can do pretty much everything else (lights, collapsing stocks, sling attachments, rails etc...) without too much of a fuss.

I want a rifle that shoots 5.56 simply because I think that will remain easy to find,

If that's the case - then that seals the deal for an AR.

but if 7.62x39 is available I will consider that.

If it becomes widely available (and cheaper)..then that dramatically changes your options. I'm in exactly the same boat. I'd like to really build up a few AK's, with magazines and some modifications etc...but am very hesitant on plunging into that platform due to ammo concerns. If the ammo was available and cheap..then the other problems of an AK can be addressed (like the crappy sights) using aftermarket parts or mods.

I want this rifle to be accurate, and have sights that allow me to shoot it accurately.

Another plus for the AR. Peep sights are tough to beat.

I want to be able to shoot this rifle over and over and over without it heating up too much.

I don't think ANYTHING will do that. Anything with a thick barrel will take longer to heat up, but conversely, will take longer to cool down. Thin barrels become super hot, very fast. But they cool down very fast. Everything heats up, even rimfires. Depends on how much shooting and at what pace. The nice thing about an AR is, that you can mount a forward vertical grip on it, and then heat becomes a non-issue.

Why are you worried about heat? That info can be useful in suggesting options.

I don't want to have to baby this rifle, its a tool not a showpiece.

Well, I don't think any of the rifles, including the Mini-14 in your list, are fragile. No need to baby any of them. Of course, the rifle that can take the absolute most abuse would be the AK. Look at the construction of the parts on one sometime. To break one, you'd have to misuse it (like as a hammer) or something. It is made so that the most ignorant barbarian isn't likely to break it. That type of robust contruction might be overkill for 95% of knowledgable gun owners.

Lastly, money IS an object, reasonable price is a must, but because I will be shooting this way more than my other rifle (Rem 700, .30-06), it has to last.

Well, it's like a triangle. You can only have 2 sides of it at once. You can't have reliability/durability, accuracy and low price all together. The AK, will give you reliability and low price, but not accuracy or nice sights. The AR, will give you durability and accuracy - but not a low price. Other guns are accurate and cheap, but they are not durable or reliable.


Anytime you want it all. Which, no offense, is kind of what you're asking for - it will NEVER be cheap.


Best thing to do is share your price ceiling with us. That will help a lot with suggesting realistic options.

 

[grimjaw]

A couple of choices you didn't mention:

- Someone mentioned the Saiga. An unconverted Saiga 5.56x45 will run you just under $300, plus shipping and transfer fees. Think of it like a Ruger Mini14 + more reliable high capacity magazines + maybe better accuracy over long periods of firing + easy to find scope rails and optics for it. You can find the Saiga in 16" and 20" barrel lengths. Even if it performed the same as a Mini14, it's less expensive by, what, $100-200?
- The Keltec SU16. Comes in a couple of different flavors mostly differing in front sight and folding stock type. Takes AR15 magazines and has a Picatinny rail on the top of the receiver. Some versions have a AR standard threaded barrel. Last I checked they were still cheaper than a Saiga / Tromix conversion (~$500 + shipping / etc)

I love my 5.56 AKs, but to approach the same kind of accuracy possible from the AR platform, I'd end up spending as much as I would on a stock Bushmaster. From the choices you listed, though, I'd really like the Armalite 180B. I've seen a few of them go for $500-550 recently on GoneBroker. After adding an Ace folding stock and a nice red dot, we're back up in the AR15 range again . . .

jmm

 

[Fosbery]

AK + holosight?

 

[American By Blood]

Do the 5.56 Saigas take AR mags?

And if not, are hicap 5.56 Saiga mags on the market?

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

- Someone mentioned the Saiga. An unconverted Saiga 5.56x45 will run you just under $300, plus shipping and transfer fees. Think of it like a Ruger Mini14 + more reliable high capacity magazines + maybe better accuracy over long periods of firing + easy to find scope rails and optics for it. You can find the Saiga in 16" and 20" barrel lengths. Even if it performed the same as a Mini14, it's less expensive by, what, $100-200?

This is a good option, but not according to this guys requirements. It lacks good sights. I also seriously question the accuracy claims made by those with .223 Saigas. I understand that the overwhelming consensus is that Saigas, as a whole, are one of the most accurate AK-platform rifles (along with the king - VEPR). However, this is all relative. Accurate compared to what? Other AK's? What does that mean? I'd be highly skeptical of MOA or 2MOA consistently claim from ANY AK-pattern weapon. Maybe a group here and there, but not consistently. There haven't been a lot of testimonial posts either here or at saiga12 forums, but the ones that have been have reported almost incredible accuracy for such a platform. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'll believe it when I see it.

AK's point of impact wanders as much, or perhaps worse than a lot of other platforms as they heat up.

As far as optics are concerned. There's a few options. You can get a piston/gas tube mounted rail. That places the optic very far forward, so not useful for anything other than a reddot. There are rails that replace the rear sight. This brings the optic much closer, but like the gastube, it will transmit a LOT of heat to the rail, then to the rings and to the optic. If you do crazy mag dumps and really cook your rifle to where its smoking...this might not be a good choice. Side rails are the best choice - but there are 2 kinds. The kind that mounts permanently, and the quick detach kind. The one that mounts permanantly can be a problem (depending on the type/brand as there are SO many different ones) because you cannot remove your carrier on some of them. The quick detach solves this problem, but NONE of the quick detach AK mounts are known to truly hold zero. Best would be a permanent side-mount that allows clearance for the carrier. If you find one of those - great.


The poster seems more interested in quality iron sights. That's a negative for the AK, unless you get a receiver cover mounted peep sight - which improves things, but will shift and lose zero. Or a rear peep sight that replaces the existing rear blade sight. Like the mojo. Everyone says it is a big improvement, but it is no way better than having the peep sight up close to your eye like on an AR. Also...it doesn't help the sight-radius problem of the AK. Might not matter...the way I see it, the AK isn't exactly an accuracy platform to need a rifleman's type sights. So what it has, it has for a good reason.

Do the 5.56 Saigas take AR mags?

And if not, are hicap 5.56 Saiga mags on the market?

They do not take AR mags, and I don't know of anyone who's ever converted one successfully.


Saiga can take high-cap mags BUT.....there are 2 problems.

1] The rifle would need to be fully converted to be 922 compliant - thus not making it "cheap" anymore.

2] High capacity 5.56 magazines for that platform are a] hard to find b] expensive c] sometimes not reliable. d] most require modification as they are 5.45 mags converted over to .223.


On the other hand, AR mags, if bought in a quantity of 10, can be had for $11 a piece. These are USGI, top quality - sure to work - no hassles.

AK magazines (7.62x39mm), if you search around, can be bought 4 at a time, for $40 - brand new, steel 30rd. sure to work - no hassles.

 

[ChristopherG]

I wouldn't underestimate the value of handling or (if possible) shooting the arms you're thinking about.

I decided I wanted a mag-fed .223 and found a number of opportunities to put my hands on AR15's, and got to shoot a couple of 'em, and just didn't like them at all. I ended up with a SU16, and am delighted with it. Yes, I saved a couple of hundred bucks (at least); but I would have paid that extra money without regret if I thought an AR would make me happy.

If you can put your hands on these different guns, you may find that an AR is all that, for you, and worth paying for; or, you may not.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Great advice Chris.


The SU16 might be the only thing that suits all the requirements. I wonder though, how robust and reliable it is? Can it handle being shot day in and day out without breaking or becoming a rattle trap? The military pattern rifles in his list have a huge advantage in that they have already been determined to be able to handle all kinds of abuse from rapid fire, to rough handling, to harsh environmental conditions by governments and militaries around the world.

In concept, the SU16 is pretty neat...I'd just like to see some testing of it from somewhere reputible first. Not a believer just yet (I do own a Kel Tec pistol though, and so far it's been perfect) but I do have an open-mind. The guy wants a rifle that will be his shooter. Kel-tecs just don't feel like guns that can handle volume shooting day in day out. Maybe it's all in my head...

 

[streetstang67]

Ok, so the the mini-14 is almost as expensive as an AR and not as tough or accurate, therefore it recieves the first elimination. The SKS, although cheap, is chambered in 7.62x39 and may not always be easy to buy ammo for it; its also bigger and heavier, second elimination.

I forgot to mention that I have considered the Kel-tecs, but I haven't heard much about them. Anybody further comments on them?

The reason I'm worried about heat is because most of my experience is with hunting rifles...it gets old having to wait 10 minutes to cool before shooting more. I guess thats not really going to be an issue with this gun.

Haven't heard much about the ar-180 or the m17.

If the saiga AK is going to run me $700, then I'll count that out, but if it can be had for $300, it still a possibility.

 

[MisterPX]

Don't forget the SAR3, a 5.56 AK. Usually in the $400 price range with it's counterparts in 7.62 and 5.45.

 

[13.45]

try and save up for a quality AR- you'll be glad you did

 

[Coronach]

The AR has some shortcomings, but for a general purpose rifle in a small caliber, it is pretty hard to beat. It is accurate, reliable (yes, really), ergonomic, and has a bazillion accessories for it.

I would just get the AR.

Mike

 

[Foxtrot427]

AR- nice. Can be fround for as much as a 180B but uses a more dirty system. The AR is an extremely reliable system but some consider it complicated especially for a dirty rifle which requires more than a little maint.

AK- An AK in 5.56 is usually more expensive than an AK in 7.62x39 or 5.45. If I had to choose between this and an AR Id rather go for an AR. Usually more accurate, not so much stuff to get for it, not as nice out of the box.

SKS- not in 5.56 as said above. And if it was, if you want detachable mags its gonna lose reliability. Plus its not as nice all around as an AR or AK. Just cheap

AR-180- if this is going to be used often, Id go with a much cheaper new AR-180B. Its as accurate as an AR, can have a railed forearm attached for your accessories, neat little compartment in the buttstock, very light, AR magwell and trigger group, and probably more reliable than an AR. If it were me Id go with one of these

mini-14- no reliable hi-caps, sporter stock may not be so comfortable and if you wanted it you would have to shell out more $$$ and install one. To be made accurate you would have to shell out even more money.

Other rifles to consider:
Daewoo DR-200. Very very nice rifle. Great all around just that there is a lack of spare parts.

Saiga in .223. May not like the sporter but conversions can be made. For the $ it has to be the nicest AK out there.

VEPR- if you can find it its got to be the finest AK out of the box you can have. Very accurate. A bit heavy though.

Kel-Tec SU-16C or CA. Very accurate, AR mags, folding stock (CA can fit a 30 rounder in the stock, C can fire with the folding skeleton stock folded), good reliablilty. Sporter stock as well though. I have seen one go through one hell of a torture test

 

[ChristopherG]

Regarding the SU16:

I don't think I'd put the same confidence in the SU holding up to weeks of daily shooting of hundreds of rounds as I would in an AK (highest confidence) or an AR (pretty high confidnence over the long haul--though if it were a question of shooting 500 rounds straight without cleaning, I'd be a bit more confident in the SU making it through without choking). I've done enough rapid fire to have smoked any oil off the outside of the barrel, more than once, and it's still more accurate than the Mini-14 average I hear tell of.

I would not consider it a battle rifle; but neither do I consider myself a soldier. I mean, it is a gun that's about business, but it's clearly a compromise, too, with its advantages of light weight and superior portability (nice features to have if you're not a soldier) costing a bit of ground vis-a-vis the true battle rifles in the getting-run-over-by-a-tank-and-still-operating category.

I've only had mine for a short time, and my round count is still in the hundreds. I plan to take it well into the thousands, and will be glad to share my experience along the way. It is nice to know that if it does shoot loose, Kel-tec will fix it. Their famed customer service and lifetime warranty went a considerable way in helping me decide to get a gun that's been written about a lot less than the AR or AK.

 

[Foxtrot427]

What makes it not a battle rifle? I remember seeing it go through a torture test on ktrange that really gave me some confidence. Not as bad as "ol dirty" the fal but still wild.

 

[ChristopherG]

What makes it not a battle rifle?

Well, just that it's never been widely used in battle. I mean, compared to the AR and AK and whatnot.

 

[Foxtrot427]

haha oh yeah! forgot that part. But it COULD be. I think anyway.

 

[roscoe]

You could get a V93. That thing is pretty dang accurate and stout as all hell. High-cap mags are cheapish. Plus, you will be the only kid on the block with one. However, cheap it ain't. My brother dropped around $1000.

Me, I have a Saiga .223 and I think it is pretty accurate, obviously it is robust, there are now high-capacity magazines available, and it cost me all of $250. THe only disadvantage I can see are the iron sights, which are nothing to write home about.

I guess it depends on what you want from the rifle.

 

[Black Snowman]

I have an M17S, an SKS I'm going to sell, I just picked up a mint MAK-90 (Chinese AK varient) today for $400, and I have a DPMS AR-15 on order. I think the one that best meets your requirements will be the AR platform.

The configuration I picked was an A2 style Tactical-16 with a fluted barrel and a collapsing stock (non-catalog item so there's about a month lead time). OTD will be just over $700 from my local dealer. Accessories, parts, and good quality magazines are plentiful and inexpensive, there is a huge knowlege base of support if something does go wrong too. If there's something you end up not liking about it, odds are someone has made something to change that about the gun.

The M17S I can't recommend because the prices are going up, they're heavy, and the sights don't just suck, they're useless. You HAVE to get optics on it. The good news is that the tension barrel doesn't change POI as it heats up, which is does pretty quickly.

The MAK 90 has decent sights, I'm sure will be reliable as all get-out, but won't be as accurate, particularly under sustained fire, and ammo is becoming more expensive and harder to find good deals on. Still, not a horrible choice, but even if you start reloading, the heavier bullet will always be more expensive than .223 / 5.56.

I'm selling the SKS, a Yugo 59/66, because the grenade launcher and longer bayonet make it horribly nose heavy compared to 59s or AKs and it's just not as handy or quick as I'd like with the extra length and weight. The trigger isn't as good as my MAK-90 either. On the plus side, it's very affordable, very reliable, and the sights are OK, it's even fun to shoot. I might replace it with a 59 later, but now that I have the AK, I probably won't. It is pretty accurate, but not on par with the M17S or the AR vairents I've shot over the years.