I need help ID'ing 16 ga. shotgun .....

[TOPSHELF]

This was a gift to me from my grandfather- according to him it was made in Holland??? It's beautiful and hardly used.

I know it's a 16 ga. It's engraved and the words "R.GARDIN ARMORIER , BTE LE HAVRE" are inscribed on the bottom near the trigger (see the yellow arrows) Has a serial # of 30101, Under the hand guard, on the barrel is scribed "17.0 choke 16.9"

I took pics of the other markings...

I found a lot of shotguns that look similar to this on gunbrokers.com, but they were all made in the USA. According to my grandfather, this was custom made in Holland...? I would love any info!

Thanks!

oh- and I forgot to mention- it has a 27.5" barrel.

 

[oletymer]

Sorry to contradict your grandfather but Gardin shotguns are French. They are good guns and you are lucky to have one.

 

[TOPSHELF]

No apology needed- he's 93 and I'm sure he was just repeating what someone else told him...
Any idea of the model or value of the gun?

Thanks for the info-

 

[oletymer]

I'm no expert on these guns. There is one on guns international asking $950. The pictures you show would make yours in better condition so the price would be higher.

 

[oneounceload]

Per your pics, the barrels have 65mm chambers which is basically 2-1/2", so NO modern 2-3/4" shells in it.

It appears to have an aftermarket recoil pad and ejectors as well.

 

[TOPSHELF]

Per your pics, the barrels have 65mm chambers which is basically 2-1/2", so NO modern 2-3/4" shells in it.

Glad you mentioned that- I was heading out today to buy some 16 ga shells at walmart. Can I still get 2 1/2" shells for it?

 

[RandKL]

That gun is Belgian. It has no import marks nor French proofs of any kind that I can see but a couple of your marks aren't quite visible in your pics. It's an "R.Gardin", not a plain "Gardin" so it leads me to believe it's a Belgian copy of a French gun. Great looking gun, though. It's smokeless proved so it's safe with short shells as OOL said.

rich

 

[oneounceload]

Can I still get 2 1/2" shells for it?

There are several purveyors of short ammunition for vintage guns - Polywad, RST, among others. Their web sites list them typically as "Vintager" or similar. There are low -pressure as well as short for older guns. A trip to a COMPETENT smith who knows how to evaluate guns like these is worth the investment to determine whether or not it is safe to shoot at all

 

[TOPSHELF]

I plan on getting it appraised in case of theft, I have a glass rifle display case in my house to store other firearms I own, but have been thinking about dropping $2k on a nice safe- I have young children-

This shotgun is solid and tight, I shot a couple of the shells (cardboard shells) he gave me with it today. It's a nice shot.

2 questions:

I'm still a little confused whether or not I can shoot both 2 3/4" & 2 1/2" shells or just the 2 1/2".

Also- I've never owned a double barrel shotgun, can these barrels be fired at the same time? I can dry-fire both barrels at the same time- but I wasn't sure if it's common practice or a big no-no with double barrels.

I figure this is worth at least $1000, possible more. I've been looking at them all day online. Most of them are priced between $1400 - $5000 and more (some up to $67k!)
I'm really not interested in selling it- like to keep it in the family, I'm just curious.

 

[TOPSHELF]

RandKL: but a couple of your marks aren't quite visible in your pics

let me know what area you're looking at and I'll take a hi-res pic and post it... Those are all the markings I can find on the gun though.

 

[TOPSHELF]

Here's a few close ups of all the markings I can find...

 

[Jubjub]

You can not safely shoot 2 3/4" shells in that gun. They will physically fit in the chambers, but when fired, the crimp will unfold forward from the chamber into the bore, which is smaller in diameter. This will cause dangerously high pressures.

Here's a list of 16 ga. ammo manufacturers. http://www.16ga.com/cartridges.html Several of them offer 2 1/2" shells. Midway and other internet sellers carry them.

 

[oneounceload]

The lion and PV proof mark makes it Belgian after 1924- probably, as mentioned above, a Belgian copy of a French gun.

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

 

[RandKL]

let me know what area you're looking at and I'll take a hi-res pic and post it...

Top, in your third pic here at the lower posting, the one with the barrels pointing left, there's a little mark left of the cursive "EL". On the top barrel it's directly south of the CH in Choke. On the bottom barrel, it's directly north of the CH. Can you see what that one is?

r

 

[Speedo66]

Le Havre? Would make you think it's french, but I'm no expert.

What I do know is the figuring on the stock and the engraving on the metal are beautiful. Nice gun, your grandfather had good taste.

 

[Sailorman]

ELG definitely is the Liege proof house in Belgium. I have the same marks on one of my shotguns I bought here in Germany. Excellent resource Oneounceload posted; whole books have been written on proof marks. The "CM" or the "d" (I forget which) is either the inspector's or sub-contractors (gunsmith) initials. I was just reading on a German web forum that period literature tracked which gunsmith produced during which years, and that the Deutsche Waffen Journal (German Weapon Journal) would research a particular gun for 20 Euro. One means of approximately dating is finding out which inspector or gunsmith worked when during which years.

 

[Mp7]

... anyone have a clue as to "Le Havre" on the gun
AND Liege proofmark? Parts made in France .. finish
and fine mechanics in Belgium?

Nice Piece. A very stylish squirrel gun.

 

[oneounceload]

... anyone have a clue as to "Le Havre" on the gun
AND Liege proofmark? Parts made in France .. finish
and fine mechanics in Belgium?

OR, the other way around - parts made in Belgium (hence the proof marks) and final assembly in France; OR, (as mentioned above), a Belgian company making a knock-off of a French company. The Belgians were making "counterfeit" versions of guns for a while, especially of English Best guns companies, altering the name just enough to prevent legal ramifications, but close enough to snare unsuspecting and uninformed buyers.

As to your grandfather's recollection about it being from Holland. With the proximity of Holland to both Belgium and France, it is possible that some work, or the store where it was sold was in Holland

 

[ArmedBear]

I've used these 2 1/2" shells in my old 16 (before I was sure what the chamber length was). They work well. Just plan on cleaning the gun every once in a while.

http://polywad.com/vintager.html