I need New Army 1858 that shoots .451

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hushnel

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My first hand gun was the New Army, I don’t remember who made it but I shot this gun and carried it for many years. I can’t remember when I replaced it after it was stolen in the late 70s. It’s been 40 years since that first revolver.

I find myself in the situation that I have the capacity to swag my own .451 round ball, I probably have 300 or 400 hundred rounds still from the last time I swaged up a pile, plus the tools to make more.

I couldn’t figure out why my .451 round balls were too loose in this replacement 58, I figured it was sloppy machining I never had a clue that this .44 had three diameter round ball diameters. I stopped shooting it after the first load and two balls fell out, thank God it didn’t flash over. I know I’m a dumb SOB.

None of the manufactures discuss the round ball that their .44s shoot and I’m not about to make the same mistake again. I see that the .451 is still available but no one mentions what revolver it’s for.

All I want is a high quality New Army 1858 that shoots the .451 but I have been unable to discover who is making this, if anybody still is.

I know this is an ass backwards way of shopping for a revolver but the guy who made up my swag kit has been out of business for at least 30 years and I simply want to shoot swaged round ball I can make.

Anyone know who makes a 58 that uses the .451?
 
Pietta, at least for me. I have 5 Pietta (Remington) 1858 New Model Armies. Two of them are the blued steel Target Model, two of them are the color case hardened with laser checkered grip panels, and one of them is the stainless. (regular, not target model) I also own 3 of the Remington (Uberti) .44 Cattleman's Carbines. (bought all 8 of them from Cabela's) All 8 of these pieces shot .451 swaged round lead balls very good right out of the the boxes and all 8 of them used the Remington #10 caps perfectly. So did the extra cylinders and extra nipples I bought from them. In fact that is what the owner's manuals recommended and that's all that's ever been shot out of them period. I like the Pietta's anyway because they have 'fatter' grips and are easier for me to handle. Perhaps this post will help you....PS. Don't believe a God**** word that old woman at Dixie Gun Works tell's you over the phone. I wouldn't buy a damn paperclip from those people and most of it is due to that dumb broad....
 
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Hhushnel, in case it's been TOO long and based on your story about balls rolling out I thought I'd add a bit a info to GotC's reply. It's normal to shoot .451 or .457 from the .44 revolvers. When loading the press force fits the ball and cuts off a thin ring of lead as it pushes the balls into the undersize cylinder. This ensures a tight and well sealed fit that totally avoids any possible roll out issue. It also explains all the mixing of ".44" and ".451" in GotC's reply that may have got you confused.

If you did manage to find an actual .451 bore revolver it would require balls of around .460 to .465 to ensure this same press fit and ring shaving. But no such C&B size revolver exists as far as I know.

Sorry if this is old hat for you but the wording of your post makes it seem like this fact was lost a while back along with the revolver..... :D

As for a '58 to play with I can heartily recomend the Uberti replica. As pointed out in a recent thread it has less warning and maker's writing stamped into the barrel and they come with a delightfully light trigger right out of the box. The blueing on my two is also first rate. I'm using my two for general giggles and shooting in CAS black powder matches.
 
My Pietta 1858 shaves a thin ring when loading .451 balls in 2 different cylinders.
But I'm not so sure that the other makes do.

hushnel, if you're sure that your swagged balls measure .451 than try a Pietta from Cabela's. It can always be returned without any questions asked if the balls don't fit to your satisfaction.
At $40 each the Pietta 1958 replacement cylinders also cost less.
 
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I have to agree with Articap. I shave lead and have NEVER had a problem with the .451's. That's the truth. Of course I cannot attempt to speak for someone else's experience in this situation....
 
The Uberti chambers are .448" diameter. I believe the Piettas I used to own were the same. I only use the .454 balls but a .448 chamber ought to take a .451 and hold it.
 
Thank for the input.

Sorry if I was vague, I left out most of my history with blackpowder in an attempt to keep my post from becoming to long or wordy. While I didn’t state the bore or cylinder measurements I think I was fairly clear that the round ball is .451 and I aim to match up a corresponding revolver to that diameter.

My previous 58 cut perfect rings off of the RB, they seated beautifully and never loosened. I know the round ball is .451, my frustration stems from the manufactures web sites not listing this information and my experience with this one revolver along with the knowledge that the Rugers take the .457. As far as I know you can buy .451, .454 and .457 round ball, all for the .44.

I looked at my newer 58 last night and could find nothing indicating the manufacturer other than Italy.

I have two historical firearms from Uberti, the .45 Cattleman that chambers the .45 Colt, which I stuff with Blackpowder and the Winchester 66/Improved Henry in 44/40, I also load these cases with Blackpowder. I have a flintlock pistol in .45 that takes the .44 with a patch the same with a percussion pistol I built. My Thompson Center left hand Renegade, also a kit, is .54 that takes the .530 with a patch.

I’ll check with Uberti about the .451, Hellgate you say the cylinder needs to mic out at .448, that makes sence.

Sorry if is was understating my experience a bit, I was aware that the Piettas sold by Cabela’s came with a ready to shoot kit and they do list the round ball as .451 and though they need very little work to be a good version on the 1858 I am drawn more to the Uberti based on the craftsmanship exhibited in the two firearms I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Again thanks for responding to my inquiry.
 
I have a Pietta "target" model with three cylinders, all chambers measure .4455 to .4465. .451 rb shaves a good ring and rams easy.

My Pietta "shooters" model has chambers that measure .4515 and uses .457 rb.
 
Hushnel,
What i said was, when I miked my own Ubertis it came out to .448" per chamber. Now, I could also be a poor measurer and be off a thou or two.
 
Sorry, I must have miss read, the .448 you measured shoots the .454. That is in line with what Midway states on it's web site

So if that is common to all the Uberti 58s they won't work
 
They probably would work but if one chamber is a little bigger you could get "ball creep" (NOT a venereal disease). If one chamber is a little big you could designate that as the first chamber to be fired (or as the "open" chamber not loaded). I mark one chamber with a drop of fingernail polish (doesn't wash off with BP water based solvents) on the cylinder over the chamber as chamber#6 which is the one I leave unloaded with the hammer down on that one (usually the least accurate or if it is a second loose chamber).
 
posted by hushnell;

....I looked at my newer 58 last night and could find nothing indicating the manufacturer other than Italy.....
Click to expand...

That lack of maker other than "Italy" and a few proof marks is also what my Uberti's have so it's possible your '58 is a Uberti as well.

Sorry if I jumped to a conclusion of newbie'ness but your comment about the balls rolling out (shaking loose would be more like it I'm guessing?) in your first post. But now I see where the issue lays since if the chambers in the cylinder are measuring out at around .448'ish (I'll have to check mine) and if the ball is .451 that only leaves .003 to be sliced off and that means precious little contact area with the ball to the chamber wall. Not enough to hold it in place against a recoil from what you're saying.

So what you need is a brand that pretty much consistently has chambers more in the .444 .445 range so it can cut away a little more lead and provide a seating band on the ball that is more in keeping with a .448 chamber and .454 ball. Sounds like this may well be brand specific. We need someone with Pietta, ASM and Euroarms .44 guns to measure them up.

My recent .36 cal '51 Navy came from the previous owner with a part box of balls. But they were .35 diameter and he sent along a couple of packages of pre-lubed pillow ticking patches to use with them. I'm not sure how well a patched ball would fit in the cylinder and I sure don't want to try it. But it may well explain his distaste for black powder revolvers.
 
they were .35 diameter and he sent along a couple of packages of pre-lubed pillow ticking patches to use with them. I'm not sure how well a patched ball would fit in the cylinder and I sure don't want to try it. But it may well explain his distaste for black powder revolvers.
Click to expand...
:what::what:

That would do it.
 
I just measured a chamber in my 1860 uberti. it's .4470 so anything larger than that should work in there. I use .454 but there is a small sliver of lead that comes off during loading and have been considering a smaller round ball, a .451 should fit just right in there.
 
a .451 should fit just right in there.
Click to expand...
That's the last thing you want. Without that sliver of lead how will you know the ball doesn't have a surface imperfection that will allow hot gas to enter the chamber? There's a good reason for using an oversize ball and getting that lead ring shaved off. It's your best insurance (along with proper fitting caps) against a chain fire.
 
It's not only possible to load a revolver with patched round balls but some match shooters do load using that method for national competition. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=410840&highlight=patched+ball

Post #9:

Has Been Tried

This method has been used at thr Nationals with Great success. It really does
work well. It is a lot of extra work, You really don't gain anything over just
the plain RB. It's a real booger in the 10 min. 10 shos timed fire match.
Click to expand...
 
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Read this thread where I asked a similar question to your's. After having posted in that thread I called Cabela's up and asked them what the recommended ball size was for their Pietta 1858 and they told me it uses a .451 ball. Cabela's printed material that comes with the Pietta 1858 they ship recommends .451.

BTW, the Uberti 1858 uses a .454 ball.
 
Take my word for it the .451 will not be tight enough.
Click to expand...

That's my thought too. If you look at the flat "waist" left by a perfect ball size .... hold on a sec. Let me fire up the CAD.....

OK, a .447 bore with the following balls produces the following width of contact waist with the bore following the cutting of the ring along with any swaging down to force fit it into the bore.

Ball dia_____Waist length
.451________.060
.454________.079
.457________.095

Obviously the retention friction is going to go up at least in accordance with the increase in contact area. Now the holding power needed to retain the balls in position would depend on the charges being shot but generally we're looking for a bit of a thump with a .44 and that amount could be enough to let the smaller contact area of the .451 jump forward in the cylinder. We'd be able to feel the pressure they have in the loading ram's arm. If the balls go in too lightly I suppose this should be a warning that we don't have the retention pressure and friction to avoid the balls shifting from the recoil.
 
Interesting suff. I'm starting to get a handle on what's going on with these 58s, thanks.

Todays a new gun day, I'm in a pretty good mood. I just picked up my homebuilt T/C .54 Renegade fitted with new glass, she's getting old a needed new glasses. It is kind of a shame but I do want to make kill shots rather than wacking away at the poor white tail. The new one is very modern in my arsenal, a Blaser R93 in .270 win.
 
From what I've gathered about the age of this group usually it's the shooter that needs the new glasses. You sure you ain't just "projecting" on us here? :D

I'm very much on the learning wagon as well and questions like these that make me think about things like the contact area of the ball's waist help me as much as my thoughts may be helping others.
 
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