I need New Army 1858 that shoots .451
- Thread starter hushnel
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BHP FAN
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I do not like the lack of compression of the .451,and I no longer use anything less than .454.this gives you more bearing surface in any event.
BCRider
Member
That's the thing, isn't it. If you can push the ball into place TOO easily it'll kick loose from it's seating against the powder.
Any chance you can lap, grind or otherwise abrade that swaging die out by .003?
Any chance you can lap, grind or otherwise abrade that swaging die out by .003?
bcrider is being an age... racist... yea thats the term being thrown around nowdays for everything- hateful just plain hateful.............now where are my specs???? darn can't see of shucks on my face whew that was close.
Now on the subject I just check 3 uberti Remington cylinders as I was a little worried that it might be a little hard to squeeze in a 457. on my ROA the .457 was real easy to ram home and load. The ram and lever is a little less robust on the Uberti so I thought to use a little bit smaller ball. All I could find was a Hornady .452. I hope these work and if not they do not shave I will go with the .457.
I have been trying to buy one of those cylinder loaders but have emailed him but not heard back from the fella that makes them- ugh
Now on the subject I just check 3 uberti Remington cylinders as I was a little worried that it might be a little hard to squeeze in a 457. on my ROA the .457 was real easy to ram home and load. The ram and lever is a little less robust on the Uberti so I thought to use a little bit smaller ball. All I could find was a Hornady .452. I hope these work and if not they do not shave I will go with the .457.
I have been trying to buy one of those cylinder loaders but have emailed him but not heard back from the fella that makes them- ugh
Ratdog68
Member
I'ma gonna have to put a measure device to my two Remmies and see what they're gonna take. At present, I have .454 Hornady RB on hand... and the Walker seems to like it just fine. I was figurin' on usin' the same in the Remmies too.
madcratebuilder
Member
If your talking about sixgun4fun, I think he had a computer crash and lost his hard drive. I believe he is back up so you may want to try again.
Yeah, I can have that done, it might be the way to go and give me more options. I'll talk to my gunsmith/machinist and see what he thinks. I don’t think I’ll have to change the diameter of the cast rod the chunks are cut off of, I’ll just cut slightly longer chunks.
BCRider
Member
ME?!?!?! AN AGE RACIST? ? ? ? That would mean I'm being discriminatory towards myself then at 56 and counting! Or does that make me one of the young'uns in this crowd 
Being pretty new I don't have much to go on but the .457 Hornady balls and .457 Speer balls I've been using seemed to go into my Uberti '58's just fine. There's a bit of a bite on the loading lever at first but nothing that my metal working senses would in any way suggest that the barrel, frame and loading lever parts would suffer from even in the long term.
Now if the balls were cast from a mix of leads that result in some oddball alloy with a slightly harder makeup then going with a smaller size to keep the loading lever pressure the same would be the way to go it would seem. In that case I'd like to see .451 to .454. Again it would be a case of sizing the balls based on the alloy used and the pressure it takes to seat them. Sound about right? I know I'm still the new guy but this is what my black powder experience so far and years of metal working suggest to me.
Hmmm.... along that line if you're cold forging the lead into balls it's likely the lead will work harden at least a little bit if it's made from anything but dead soft alloy. Even then it may work harden a little. Also I'm curious about how you size the lumps you're swaging/forging. If you feed it too small a lump it'll be less than the correct size. But what allows for any excess to escape? I'd think that to form a really good ball you'd need to slightly over feed the swager and cut off some squeezeout flashing. Any chance of seeing some pictures of this rig you have? Shop nut that I am I'm curious as a cat about this setup.
Being pretty new I don't have much to go on but the .457 Hornady balls and .457 Speer balls I've been using seemed to go into my Uberti '58's just fine. There's a bit of a bite on the loading lever at first but nothing that my metal working senses would in any way suggest that the barrel, frame and loading lever parts would suffer from even in the long term.
Now if the balls were cast from a mix of leads that result in some oddball alloy with a slightly harder makeup then going with a smaller size to keep the loading lever pressure the same would be the way to go it would seem. In that case I'd like to see .451 to .454. Again it would be a case of sizing the balls based on the alloy used and the pressure it takes to seat them. Sound about right? I know I'm still the new guy but this is what my black powder experience so far and years of metal working suggest to me.
Hmmm.... along that line if you're cold forging the lead into balls it's likely the lead will work harden at least a little bit if it's made from anything but dead soft alloy. Even then it may work harden a little. Also I'm curious about how you size the lumps you're swaging/forging. If you feed it too small a lump it'll be less than the correct size. But what allows for any excess to escape? I'd think that to form a really good ball you'd need to slightly over feed the swager and cut off some squeezeout flashing. Any chance of seeing some pictures of this rig you have? Shop nut that I am I'm curious as a cat about this setup.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Well, in closing here I will say that I must be one of the luckiest SOB's in the world. My Walker cylinders all carry the .457 just like the book said to use and my Remington Pietta '58 Armies all carry the .451's just like the book said to use. I'vd never bought or owned or shot a .454 ball in my life. AND, wonder of wonders!!! My Colt Uberti .31 will actually carry the .323 just like the book said to use, and I know ya'll are not going to believe this but my .45 inlines will actually load and fire .45 sabots. It say's .45 caliber right on the package! I don't have to worry about loading them up with 46 and 2/3rds or 47 and 1/2 or anything like that. I just open up a package that specifies .45 caliber and By God it will fit right in there nice and tight and perfect just like the book said....
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You get books with your guns? that must be very nice for you. Before my 58 was stolen I knew that it took a .451 and when I bought the swag kit I knew it had to be cherried to .451 and that's what I ordered. My mistake was when I purchased the next .44, which some how didn't come with a book, or a pamphlet or even .44 stamped on the barrel I assumed it too would use the .451. After I built my third Black powder rifle, that I knew to take a .530 I tried to get this gentleman to make me another swag kit for it's caliber but he had gone out of business, so I just cast the round ball for it, though I buy swaged for hunting.
The lumps are cut using the swag, it has two index pins for aligning the tools for the process, when cutting the lumps a set screw is used to adjust the shear point. You can tell if enough metal is sheared once you swag the ball, it forms a symmetrical ring with flashing that looks much like Saturn.
The aluminum mold that is used to cast the rods and is part of the kit has a cherried out hole that does not go all the way through the aluminum bar mold but cuts through to .451, you place the Saturn on it and push, the flashing is seared off, after a few days of oxidizing you can’t tell, it’s a perfect swaged round ball. It a very neat rig, I’ll take a series of pictures when I can find the time.
BCRider
Member
Like most used gun deals my own Remingtons and 1851 didn't come with any sort of manual at all. So I've had to rely on the Black Powder Mob for my guidance. So far so good....
BHP FAN
Member
I cast all my own haven't bought any,in years.
that's what the over power and over ball wads are for. each 1/8" lubed wool pads. one between the powder and ball and one over the ball. I currently use .454 myself but was considering trying the .451's.
Oldfalguy, As for loaders head over to powderinc.com and buy the one they have. They are superb.
Sagetown
Member
hushnel:
Dixie Gun Works 2009 catalog give a list of specifications for each brand they sell. From depth of riflings to number of lands, barrel diameters, etc.
Pietta for all but one of their New Model Remingtons shoot the .451"dia. ball.
Their 'Dixie Shooter' a $675 New Model Remington by Pietta shoots the .457".
Uberti and Euro Arms both list the .454" dia. ball as the required ball. They also list the size of Percussion caps to use also. All list the #11.
Sage
Dixie Gun Works 2009 catalog give a list of specifications for each brand they sell. From depth of riflings to number of lands, barrel diameters, etc.
Pietta for all but one of their New Model Remingtons shoot the .451"dia. ball.
Their 'Dixie Shooter' a $675 New Model Remington by Pietta shoots the .457".
Uberti and Euro Arms both list the .454" dia. ball as the required ball. They also list the size of Percussion caps to use also. All list the #11.
Sage
Thanks, Sagetown. I'll have to get one of DGW catalogs.
The revolver I bought the .451 swag for bit off a very nice ring of lead when loading. I lost my job in 1980 and moved from Pittsburgh to Miami. That revolver was loaded for a little better than two years. I bet a guy I worked with that all cylinders would fire, I won. I showed this guy how to shoot black powder, he had the Ruger Old Army, that was the first I learned of the .457 round ball.
I’m a great fan of standardization, a .44 should shoot a .44 be it .451, 454, of 457 round ball. But it ain’t a perfect world or I would be working on two or three types of ventilators rather than 15 or so. I had a long history with the .451 and never knew until my buddies Ruger that they used different round ball and even then I figured it was just something Ruger did, I mean it really wasn’t anything close to a Remington New Army .44 at all, other than shooting blackpowder.
The revolver I bought the .451 swag for bit off a very nice ring of lead when loading. I lost my job in 1980 and moved from Pittsburgh to Miami. That revolver was loaded for a little better than two years. I bet a guy I worked with that all cylinders would fire, I won. I showed this guy how to shoot black powder, he had the Ruger Old Army, that was the first I learned of the .457 round ball.
I’m a great fan of standardization, a .44 should shoot a .44 be it .451, 454, of 457 round ball. But it ain’t a perfect world or I would be working on two or three types of ventilators rather than 15 or so. I had a long history with the .451 and never knew until my buddies Ruger that they used different round ball and even then I figured it was just something Ruger did, I mean it really wasn’t anything close to a Remington New Army .44 at all, other than shooting blackpowder.
I have a great deal of respect for Dixie Gun Works and their very worthwhile catalog. However, I have to advise a bit of caution. Consider the following: On page 632 of the 2009 catalog they publish a chart entitled "Chart of Ball Sizes to Use in Reproduction Guns". The chart specifies .451 for all the .44 cal guns listed save the Remington New Army (no brands are mentioned). That includes, interestingly, the Colt Walker, which Pietta doesn't make. The Walker in the chart is specified as having a chamber diameter of .450 - using a .451 ball in a gun with a .450 chamber diameter is simply nonsense.
I also must take exception with the specification of unbranded No. 11 caps for ALL percussion revolvers. Not all No. 11 caps are the same. CCI No. 11 caps have an opening diameter of 0.166 inches and a height of 0.162 inches; Remington No. 11 caps have an opening diameter of 0.166 inches but a height of just 0.142 inches. They do not fit the same nipples.
Despite those problems, and a couple of others, I still value and refer to the DGW catalog
frequently. I'm simply suggesting that, like with all reference materials, a grain of salt is worthwhile until one can verify the data.
I also must take exception with the specification of unbranded No. 11 caps for ALL percussion revolvers. Not all No. 11 caps are the same. CCI No. 11 caps have an opening diameter of 0.166 inches and a height of 0.162 inches; Remington No. 11 caps have an opening diameter of 0.166 inches but a height of just 0.142 inches. They do not fit the same nipples.
Despite those problems, and a couple of others, I still value and refer to the DGW catalog
frequently. I'm simply suggesting that, like with all reference materials, a grain of salt is worthwhile until one can verify the data.
Sagetown
Member
Yep mykeal; I saw that Chart myself. And of course there's been a lot of discussion about the caps. This pic pretty much shows an eye-ball difference in the caps and the aftermarket Treso Nipples. Did I get this from you?
Small freaking world, or internet I guess. It's been 5 1/2 years since I posted here. I wound up back here searching for a PCP air rife that would take a .451 round ball and this thread was at the top of the list. I had no clue when I clicked on it that it was the "which Freaking Remington 1858 utilizes the .451 round ball' thread I started over 5 years go.
I wound up just shooting the .454 out of the no-name '58. Obviously I'm still trying to use that dang swag kit "o)
Life got pretty crazy for me around the time I dropped off this board. for 5 years I expected the doors to the shop I worked in to be locked and re-coded everyday I showed up. The Hospital cut near 2,000 jobs while spending millions on new buildings and acquisitions. When I reached 30 years I retired that day. That was June 29, 2012. That September I suffered a little impact with the ground doing 70 mph on the Road Glide. I didn't exactly walk away from that one, ain't as young as I used to be, took me about 4 months maybe 5 to get back to 95%.
Move out of the Miami area, the place is garbage, even the little rural community that held out well until about 7 years ago turned to trash. I bought a 21.2 acre Cracker farm up in north central Florida, house was built in 1886, and I have a 1,600 sq.ft. workshop. Life is good, I mowed around the property today on the Massy Ferguson, that includes the area where my pistol and rifle range is located.
I got a Issac Haynes style "early Lancaster" flintlock that still needs to be finished hanging on the workshop wall as well as about 6 guitars in various stages of completion needing my attention, I've added blacksmithing and painting to my list of skills. I spend a lot of time wilderness camping out of one of two canoes, mostly in this area, down to Ocala NF and on the many springs and rivers in the area.
To make this post relevant I'll add that I have been playing around with air guns lately. Doing some modifications and eeking out a few more FPS, doing trigger jobs on my own stuff and learning how to be accurate with the spring pistons. In my mind these ancient rifle technologies are as relevant today as they where 300 maybe even 400 years ago.
I'm sure some of you black powder guys know of the Girandoni Air Rifle carried by Meriwether Lewis on his and Clark's historic adventure in 1803. A pre-charged-pneumatic air rifle .46 caliber that could accurately shoot it's 22 round ball in less than a minute, I've read even less than half that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqFyKh-rUI
I wound up just shooting the .454 out of the no-name '58. Obviously I'm still trying to use that dang swag kit "o)
Life got pretty crazy for me around the time I dropped off this board. for 5 years I expected the doors to the shop I worked in to be locked and re-coded everyday I showed up. The Hospital cut near 2,000 jobs while spending millions on new buildings and acquisitions. When I reached 30 years I retired that day. That was June 29, 2012. That September I suffered a little impact with the ground doing 70 mph on the Road Glide. I didn't exactly walk away from that one, ain't as young as I used to be, took me about 4 months maybe 5 to get back to 95%.
Move out of the Miami area, the place is garbage, even the little rural community that held out well until about 7 years ago turned to trash. I bought a 21.2 acre Cracker farm up in north central Florida, house was built in 1886, and I have a 1,600 sq.ft. workshop. Life is good, I mowed around the property today on the Massy Ferguson, that includes the area where my pistol and rifle range is located.
I got a Issac Haynes style "early Lancaster" flintlock that still needs to be finished hanging on the workshop wall as well as about 6 guitars in various stages of completion needing my attention, I've added blacksmithing and painting to my list of skills. I spend a lot of time wilderness camping out of one of two canoes, mostly in this area, down to Ocala NF and on the many springs and rivers in the area.
To make this post relevant I'll add that I have been playing around with air guns lately. Doing some modifications and eeking out a few more FPS, doing trigger jobs on my own stuff and learning how to be accurate with the spring pistons. In my mind these ancient rifle technologies are as relevant today as they where 300 maybe even 400 years ago.
I'm sure some of you black powder guys know of the Girandoni Air Rifle carried by Meriwether Lewis on his and Clark's historic adventure in 1803. A pre-charged-pneumatic air rifle .46 caliber that could accurately shoot it's 22 round ball in less than a minute, I've read even less than half that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqFyKh-rUI
Panzerschwein
member
This story kind of sounds like what I'm going through only in reverse.
My Cimarron (Uberti) 1851 Navy only likes .380 size balls, .375 are too small for it and they don't shave a complete ring of lead and have next to 0 bearing surface on chambered balls.
That's just great because the industry standard is .375 balls, or so it seems. Nice easy to load swaged balls in .375 are available all over from the likes of Hornady et al, but so far I've only found one source of .380 balls and they're cast by Track of the Wolf. They decent but I've already had one in 50 have an air pocket in them that caused the ball to just crunch together and become impossible to get out without breaking down the gun and driving it out with a rod.
I've heard other people with Ubertis that have this same problem, but have heard Piettas usually will take .375 balls properly. I don't understand why Uberti wouldn't want to make there chambers accept the common .375 diameter??
My Cimarron (Uberti) 1851 Navy only likes .380 size balls, .375 are too small for it and they don't shave a complete ring of lead and have next to 0 bearing surface on chambered balls.
That's just great because the industry standard is .375 balls, or so it seems. Nice easy to load swaged balls in .375 are available all over from the likes of Hornady et al, but so far I've only found one source of .380 balls and they're cast by Track of the Wolf. They decent but I've already had one in 50 have an air pocket in them that caused the ball to just crunch together and become impossible to get out without breaking down the gun and driving it out with a rod.
I've heard other people with Ubertis that have this same problem, but have heard Piettas usually will take .375 balls properly. I don't understand why Uberti wouldn't want to make there chambers accept the common .375 diameter??
Hushnel, LEE Precision makes a double cavity .380 ball mold and http://buckshotmold.com/ makes a gang mold for 0000 buckshot (.380) that casts 10 balls per throw.
midland man
Member
well I have a pietta 1858 Remington 44 cap-n-ball revolver and my owners manual came with it and it states to use .454 dia balls in this gun! so that's all I use and mine works and shoots fine no problems here! i now need a leather holster and belt to carry it with a possibles bag to carry the stuff i need to shoot it! so where do you guys get your leather goods to make using these revolvers and carring them comfortable?
so where do you guys get your leather goods to make using these revolvers and carring them comfortable?Funny you should ask that "o) My first leather project was a holster for the '58. That was many years ago. Being left handed, making knives and doing a good bit of historical interpretation has required learning quite a few old skills, this list has gotten pretty long.
After I retired I was offered a cabin at Stephen Foster Folk Culture Center State Park to demonstrate, among other things, leather work. I spend three days a week out there.
I've seen inexpensive leather offered in the Cabelas catalogs, often thinking I can't compete with this stuff" Im not sure of the quality but it is leather.
This is an example, a little over the top. For the '58 and Colts I make a more traditional flap over, like used in the Civil War.
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