I need some help. case head seperations

[jonc]

Hello everyone i'm in need of some help.
I am experiencing many case head seperations out of my ruger 77 mark ii .223 varmint/target model . The brass cases are very often coming out of the chamber in 2 pieces. If theyre not coming out seperated then the brass casings are so close to breaking that you can do it with your hands. I have a feeling that my dies are adjusted incorrectly. I"m usin a hornady FL sizing die. I have the die adjusted to where it is touching the shell holder then i lock the ring as per the instructions. I bought some new brass but i'm afraid i'm going to have the same problem if i dont do something with the die.


I checked some of my fired brass from my last shooting session and it still chambers just fine with no noticable resistance. From my understanding i should not be able to chamber fired brass. I was going to unscrew the die until it started chambering easily but now I don't know where to go. Thank you for the help.

 

[TonyAngel]

How old is/was the brass that suffered the separations? How many times were they reloaded? Every time you full length size the case and then shoot it, it stretches. Hence the need to trim cases. As it stretches, it becomes thinner, usually near the base of the case, probably where you are getting the separations. I always check my brass before reloading. I run a dental pick down the inside wall of the case and feel for a crevice in the case wall. If it's bad enough, you can see a ring around the outside of the case.

Another possible cause is that you are bumping the shoulder back too much when sizing. You should dial the die out and start taking some measurements.

When you shoot a round from a rifle, the brass becomes formed to the chamber. They should rechamber easily. If they don't, you might have a rough spot in your chamber. If you've had several ruptures, you might have burned a spot in the chamber.

Many who shoot bolt guns neck size only, once the brass has been formed to their chambers.

 

[jonc]

TonyAngel,

Thank you for your response and knowledge. The brass was purchased as range pickup brass in a bag of 500 when i was just getting into reloading about 7 years ago. It is all mixed headstamp stuff, some of the brass has crimps in it that i have to remove when reloading. My best guess is that i've reloaded this 100 pcs 4-5 times is all. The new brass i bought and plan to use going forward is federal premium but i haven't loaded any of that yet.

is there a way to measure how far i'm bumping the shoulder of the brass using a caliper? or is there a different tool to accomplish that? My next question is how far should i unscrew the sizing die before trying again? I've known i had this problem for at least a year now but the rifle shoots so well that i was hesitant to change anyting, but now i'm out of ammo so i want to make sure i take care of this before loading another 100 rounds.

Thank you again for your help and expertise.

 

[troy fairweather]

Send it back ruger will replace the barrel free of charge

 

[Slamfire]

Hello everyone i'm in need of some help.
I am experiencing many case head seperations out of my ruger 77 mark ii .223 varmint/target model . The brass cases are very often coming out of the chamber in 2 pieces. If theyre not coming out seperated then the brass casings are so close to breaking that you can do it with your hands. I have a feeling that my dies are adjusted incorrectly. I"m usin a hornady FL sizing die. I have the die adjusted to where it is touching the shell holder then i lock the ring as per the instructions. I bought some new brass but i'm afraid i'm going to have the same problem if i dont do something with the die.


I checked some of my fired brass from my last shooting session and it still chambers just fine with no noticable resistance. From my understanding i should not be able to chamber fired brass. I was going to unscrew the die until it started chambering easily but now I don't know where to go. Thank you for the help.

Let me make the case for measuring equipment. If you can measure a process, you can control a process. More or less.

This absolute first thing you need is a cartridge headspace gage.

This gauge measures base to shoulder distance of a fired case, and a sized case.It is cut large between base and shoulder so you can drop fired cases in the guage.


View attachment 901665

This one is cool because it is sectioned. It is also cut with a SAAMI minimum reamer so it cannot be used on fired brass, only on sized brass.

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For your rifle, take the fired brass and drop the fired case in a Wilson type gauge and see just where the base is, it should be between the high and low steps of the gage.

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Lets say fired cases are between the Go and No Go, then everything rifle related is fine. If not, that is something to be addressed with a gunsmith, but this is something that should be done to check on chamber headspace. This does not work with gas guns as the cases are stretched during extraction.

Then, unscrew your Hornady sizing die, and size a fired case, and bump the shoulder down so the base to shoulder distance is about 0.003" less than the fired case. Or just size to cartridge headspace gauge minimum.

Without gauges, we really don't know what you are doing, but 99% of the time, adjusting the sizing die to the shell holder and adding a quarter turn, produces cases that are either over long, or over sized. If the die correctly sizes the case, go buy a lottery ticket because you are on a hot streak.

Now, for any cases that are already sized, to avoid scrapping them, lubricate them with case lube, or grease. I have been doing this on first time fireforming of cases, especially the expensive belted magnum types.

View attachment 901668

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that hair gel is mostly vasoline with a nice smelling perfume. It is also human compatible so when you get your fingers in your mouth, you won't be swallowing industrial tribological friction reducers. Greases/oils will break the friction between case and chamber and will prevent case head separations. It is messy, but you will clean up, and your cases won't be stretched in half. The case mouth and shoulder are the thinnest part of a case, and upon combustion, expand and grip the chamber walls. In a weapon with dry chambers and dry cases, as pressure builds, the sidewalls have to stretch when the base moves to the bolt face. As you have found, when the clearance between case shoulder and chamber is excessive the sidewalls will eventually fail. But, external lubrication will prevent the case from gripping the chamber walls. So the case slides to the bolt face, the case shoulders fold out, and you do not stretch the case sidewalls.

View attachment 901672

The shooting community has totally forgotten the weapons that used greased and oiled cases, even though dry lubricants are still being used on cartridges today. This agnotology is deliberate and goes back to a 100 year Army coverup of its defective low numbered 1903 receivers. And then characters like P.O Ackley built on this, claiming the principle of straightness in cases reduced bolt thrust, and therefore AI Improved cases could be safely operated at 15,000 psia above SAAMI specs. This was an interesting example of nonsense creating a career built on a lie. And it works because the shooting community is ignorant of weapon design, and of weapon history. But back in the day, there were some machine guns that had oilers on top, because machining technology was so poor that headspace could not be controlled for replacement barrels. So the designers, Italians mostly, put oilers on top, and just a tiny drop of oil was enough to prevent case breakage.

This machine gun had an oiler on top

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so did this Japanese Nambu

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I believe both of these needed oilers because they were delayed blowbacks.

 

[jonc]

 

[DocRock]

7 year old range pick up?

You got your money's worth. Buy some new brass. Check your full length sizing die to make sure it's only barely moving the shoulder back a fair's breadth.

 

[Demi-human]

Regardless of anything else, your current brass is used up.
Using a paper clip and making a small, right angle pick will tell you if the head is thin, without needing to cut a case in half.

I agree with Slamfire’s assessment of over sizing.

However, if you like the barrel and are not having it changed out, a case gauge won’t be as much help as the chamber in your barrel.
If your chamber is long, resetting your dies to a case gauge isn’t going to help. If you’ve followed the instructions contained in the dies set, you’ve already sized them to minimum.
And, as proof, you are experiencing head separations after only four loads.

Follow his fire forming advice, clean the case off and check for chamber fit. Custom die makers have you fire a case, unsized, thrice before sending it in to them.
Then using you chamber as reference, unscrew your die, insert the case and turn the die down by hand until contact. It should be away from touching the shell holder deck. That distance is how far your chamber is too long. Size them three thousandths more. Use enough lube for consistent sizing as it won’t come down to touch the shell holder any longer as witness.

I also agree with @troy fairweather.
If you have many rifles chambered for .223 it may be better to send it to Ruger for a new barrel and continue handloading as you were.

I only have two. The AR eats whatever I cook for the stick-shift. It wouldn’t work that way if the chamber was smaller in the auto-loader.

 

[edwardware]

I have the die adjusted to where it is touching the shell holder then i lock the ring as per the instructions.

You're oversizing the brass.

You need a way to measure shoulder position (I use this for shoulders and ogives). Measure the shoulder position of 20 fired cases, and set the die so that it doesn't quite move it. Measure the shoulder position after the next firing (it'll be longer) and repeat.

Iterate until the sized brass is slightly difficult to chamber, then move the shoulder back about 0.004". Now you're set.

If you follow the directions and set the die against the shell holder, you're probably moving the shoulder 0.015+ back each time. That'll ruin it quickly.

 

[Slamfire]

You're oversizing the brass.

You need a way to measure shoulder position (I use this for shoulders and ogives). Measure the shoulder position of 20 fired cases, and set the die so that it doesn't quite move it. Measure the shoulder position after the next firing (it'll be longer) and repeat.

Iterate until the sized brass is slightly difficult to chamber, then move the shoulder back about 0.004". Now you're set.

If you follow the directions and set the die against the shell holder, you're probably moving the shoulder 0.015+ back each time. That'll ruin it quickly.

There are no case gauges for some calibers, like the 7.5 Swiss so I have to use a comparator in setting up the die. But comparators have their limitations, one of which, it does not tell you or warn you if there is something goofy with the chamber. Comparators just provide a relative measurement. Which in some instances, is better than nothing, but I prefer gauges that tell me a bit more.

 

[Blue68f100]

TonyAngel,

is there a way to measure how far i'm bumping the shoulder of the brass using a caliper? or is there a different tool to accomplish that? My next question is how far should i unscrew the sizing die before trying again? I've known i had this problem for at least a year now but the rifle shoots so well that i was hesitant to change anyting, but now i'm out of ammo so i want to make sure i take care of this before loading another 100 rounds.

Thank you again for your help and expertise.

Yes there is a way to measure the shoulder position but using pistol brass. I used this method for decades before buying some fancy tools. For the 223 most any 9mm and maybe a 40 cal spent brass will work. What you do is set the 9mm brass over the neck and take a reading. You want the pistol brass to contact near the middle of the shoulder if you can. Then size the brass and measure again. this will tell you how much your pushing the shoulder back. With an simi-auto you only need to push the shoulder back 0.002-0.003" for it to reliably chamber. With a bolt gun you can get by with 0.001".

If you have quite a few firings on the brass you may be better off scrapping the brass if they all have been over stretched. I have some LC brass that has over 8 reloads on it and it's still going strong, though some of the primer pockets are starting to get loose. I do anneal every cycle though to keep from splitting the necks.

If your gun is over gassed you may be stretching it more. If you have some new brass to compare too will help. But keep in mind that most new brass is sized to a min so it will fit all chambers. Best to size one then test in your chamber. Operate the bolt by hand so you can feel if it's has pressure closing. Best to remove the ejector if you can.

 

[edwardware]

But comparators have their limitations, one of which, it does not tell you or warn you if there is something goofy with the chamber. Comparators just provide a relative measurement.

Generally, if there's something goofy with the chamber, it'll tell you.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, relative shoulder position is all you need; in the few cases where it's not enough, the difference between the actual chamber and the chamber gauge is likely to be just as confusing as the underlying problem with the chamber.

So, when sizing for a chamber, I prefer a shoulder comparator. If you're sizing for a theoretical design chamber al la SAAMI, you need a complete chamber gauge.

 

[whughett]

You already have a case gage. The rifle it’s self. Back the die out at least a full turn. Size a fire brass. Does it chamber easy. Insert a bullet in the mouth by hand. Will it renter, if yes, screw the die down a quarter turn and retry the steps. If the bullet won’t enter now by hand pressure, seat using your seating die, smoke the bullet and chamber fully. Examine The bullet for indications it’s either not engaging the rifling or just kissing it.

 

[Walkalong]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/incipient-case-head-separation.734058/

 

[Walkalong]

I have a feeling that my dies are adjusted incorrectly. I"m usin a hornady FL sizing die. I have the die adjusted to where it is touching the shell holder then i lock the ring as per the instructions

That's the first thing to check, and a case gauge or a comparator can tell you that. Chances are you are moving the shoulder too far back for your chamber.

If you get a Wilson or Sheridan case gauge you can set up the sizer with them. It will also let you know a little bit about your chamber.

Comparators are great, but not as foolproof. I use both, depending on the caliber/gun/application.

 

[Walkalong]

I use this for 6 Dasher

I use the Sinclair comparator setup on 6 Creed

case gauges

I have some home made comparators.

 

[whughett]

Case gages and what ever comparators are, are all well and good for those loading for a variety of firearms chambered for a given cartridge. They meet industry standard but can’t take into account variances in individual chambers.
For those loading for one particular rifle, perhaps the OP, that rifles chamber is the only gage relative to that cartridge. The OPs rifle could have been Friday’s chamber reamer and the last one ran off with it. Just saying.
Set the dies to what the rifle wants and functions with.

 

[jmorris]

is there a way to measure how far i'm bumping the shoulder of the brass using a caliper?

You just need something with a hole in it, that is a diameter that will contact the shoulder and deep enough the tip of the bullet can’t stop it.

Once you pick a size (~.270 is good for a .223 case) that will be your datum or reference point in order to comparison.

You could measure some factory ammunition to compare with or just measure your reloads before firing.



and again after.



For your bolt gun, the closer these numbers are together, the longer your brass will last, less you need to trim and often good for accuracy as well.

I suspect measuring one of your intact fired cases and one of the reloads like above will shine the light on the cause of the problem.

Another method I like for setting up dies for a specific firearm (even if it’s not in spec) is to gut the bolt and only lower the die just enough to size it so the handle will drop about half way closed on the case. This means the case will be under compression when the bolt is all the way down and doesn’t stretch like a case loose in the chamber will.

 

[Walkalong]

Set the dies to what the rifle wants and functions with.

That is what the comparator or the case gauge can do for you.

 

[Walkalong]

Here is my home made "bump" gauge for 300 BLK. Works like any of the other methods.
I also have the old Sinclair nut like @jmorris shows.

Either way, as he posted, the closer the numbers the better on a bolt gun.
Too far apart and you will have separation issues.

 

[whughett]

I’m coming to the realization that my old school methods are out dated. I can say however In many thousands of rounds of bottle neck rifle cartridges I’ve never reached the point the OP is experiencing. I knew what to look for and how to address them before they became a problem.
But then I can’t recall ever using the max load listed in any manual for any rifle load. Hunting accuracy was the goal along with reliability In auto feeders and lever guns mostly.

 

[FROGO207]

The OPsaid he could put the fired brass back in with ease. If he was to size just enough to resize the neck to get good neck tension and leave the shoulder alone then try, that it might work for a couple reloads before he can't close the bolt. Then just bump the sholder back and try it. Might be all he needs to do. I would try this with 10 of the new brass or 10 that you might have as spares. Load and shoot them several times and see if case life is better. If so just leave your sizing die set to bump the sholder back. Might be able to get away not having to buy fancy tools to get longer life. Just sayin.

OP I have some mixed 223/mil range brass I could send you to try. Should be once fired. PM me if you want some.

 

[Walkalong]

I’m coming to the realization that my old school methods are out dated

Just another way to do it, I wouldn't call it out dated, just maybe not as popular these days, it still works.