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I need to pick your brains...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Captaingyro, Jun 26, 2018.

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  1. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    At our local range, when the ceasefire is called all shooters are instructed to ceasefire, make the gun safe, magazines out, actions open.

    "Action Open" means bolt open, slides back, cylinders out, etc. So the term you're looking for, based on how we say things, would be "Action Closed".
     
  2. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    "Eez gon, eez not safe"

    I'm liking "clear" and "hot".
     
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  3. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

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    I'm racking my brain for military jargon that could describe an unsafe firearm. "Bad Con" (bad condition, as compared to condition 1, 2 or 3) or Bad Breech come to mind. You want a quick phrase that tells immediately that the firearm is in an unknown, unverified, negligent and dangerous condition.

    4-H teaches MAT (muzzle, action, trigger) as a quick guide to the parts of the firearm that need to be handled in a safe manner at all times. Something like "Bad MAT" could do it too
     
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  4. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    RPZ writes:

    I like "clear" and "hot" because the two words do not at all sound alike. You don't want any confusion (did he just say "safe" or "unsafe"? Did he just say "clear" or "unclear?")

    Something else that comes to mind is a three-word system using "clear", "check", and "ready" (or "hot".)
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  5. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    When is it safe to point a firearm at someone? The only time a firearm is safe is when it's safe to point it at someone and it is NEVER safe to point a firearm at someone.

    A firearm must be cleared before setting down on the bench or in the rack when not in use or before the range is cleared for shooters to go down range.

    A firearm is clear when the action/cylinder is open and the chamber and magazine/magazine well/cylinder is empty of ammunition or spent casings. If the firearm is set on the bench, it must be clear and set so the muzzle is down range and ejection port up.

    All firearms must be clear and either on the bench or in the rack before the range is clear for shooters to go down range.
     
  6. Captaingyro

    Captaingyro Member

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    This has been an excellent give-and-take on a somewhat frustrating situation: we all know exactly what we mean, but find that there isn't a single word to capture it. When I asked the question I was pretty sure I'd have a head-slapping moment...someone would casually come up with the term I'd been looking for but couldn't think of. At least now I know I wasn't having a blank "moment".

    Thank you all for your input. I may just fall back to the term we've been using but that I was trying to improve upon: "Loaded". It's accurate insofar as Col. Cooper's first rule: "Every gun is always loaded." Maybe it's good to keep that in mind.
     
  7. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Presumed loaded.
     
  8. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    Hot, as in the firing line is hot. That's what we use. It basically means there is lead going down range. We also use "cold". The firing line is either hot or cold. If the condition is "cold" that means bolts open, slides locked, cylinders open, etc. and nobody on the firing line. We have red flashing lights on the firing line. When those are on nobody should be on the firing line. When the range changes conditions an alarm goes off.

    Hot and cold, like the water from your faucet. :D
     
  9. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    CoalTrain49 writes:

    True. I wasn't thinking of that. If "hot" and "cold" are being used for range line status, they certainly shouldn't be used for gun status.

    For the original question, I suggest "check", "unchecked", or "uncleared" to describe any gun not left in an obviously-cleared presentation manner.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  10. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    It works for gun status also. We have a cold range except on the firing line where it can be hot. No loaded weapons on the range anywhere (inside the perimeter) unless you're on a firing line. Mags out, cylinders empty, chambers clear, you get the idea. We have a bunker where you can unload anything before proceeding onto the property.

    LEO's get a pass.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  11. jrmiddleton425

    jrmiddleton425 Member

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    Why not make it as simple as possible, and write the rule like this: ACTIONS OPEN AND CLEAR BEHIND THE FIRING LINE.
     
  12. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    ^^ He's probably looking for a term that can cover benched firearms that, at first glance, are not "obviously" clear. There are few firearms like this, but they're out there (happened to me once while shooting a Phoenix HP22A, a gun that cannot be cleared until the magazine is manually unloaded and re-inserted into the gun.) Single-action revolvers fall into this category; I've yet to shoot at a range that has required me to remove the cylinder from one to show clear, although that's certainly an option.
     
  13. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

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    Secure and unsecured. They may still require definition and education. But a range officer can quickly say, "the rifle on lane 5 is unsecured." or give the command, "secure the pistol on lane 3!"
     
  14. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Action opened (disabled) & emptied
    Magazine removed
    flag in chamber or ramrod in barrel (for muzzle loaders).
     
  15. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    I would spend your time clearly defining what meets the criteria of "safe" for your club. Anything else will be assumed to be loaded. See discussions of Cooper's Four Rules.

    The more complex you write it, the more unintentional loopholes there are. Stick with "safe" or "unloaded" and "loaded". Yes, we're all aware that a firearm can indeed be unloaded. But if it does not meet your criteria for safe, assume it is loaded.

    I wrote the following in a different thread:
    Rule One seems to generate the most confusion. Obviously, a gun can be unloaded. However, it is stupid to ever assume one is unloaded. Stupidity that can have serious consequences. If you pick up any firearm, it is loaded until you have visually verified at least twice that there is no ammunition in the chamber or magazine. As soon as the weapon leaves your immediate physical control, the process starts over again. Even if you place it on your coffee table and are the only one in the house. Because, as we used to say in the military, "Murphy lives in your gear bag and he's trying to bloody kill you". Except we aren't British and didn't say "bloody".

    Mental lapses happen. This is part of the purpose of the Four Rules. To mitigate human fallibility. You can blow it on one rule and adherence to the other three will *probably* save you from a tragedy. Another purpose is to ingrain habits to save us from our own fallibility. That's one of the reasons for the repetition and redundancy in Cooper's Rules. They are not just rules to meet conditions, they are rules to modify our behavior into something far less hazardous than the natural state of a naked monkey holding a tool capable of projecting force not found in the natural world.

    Are they perfect? Probably not, as all things invented by human beings are subject to improvement. But I haven't seen anything that does the job better or more concisely. That may change one day. If we stumble on something better, we should adopt it. But Cooper's "Four Rules" have been going strong for decades now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  16. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

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    I'm going to take another swing at this. Let me expand on the word "secure". It sprang to mind from the movie "Aliens". In an early scene on the ship approaching the planet, the marines are prepping the drop ship for an operation, when the Sargent barks, "Secure that $#!t, Hudson!". Secure works as a verb, as an action as well as a condition. Its a commanding word demanding a quick response, while "safe" is a softer word comprised of all soft consonant sounds. Safe is a noun that describes a condition and requires the verb "make". You can't "safe" a firearm, you have to "make safe".

    "Secure" is more comprehensive than "safe". Safe implies engaging a mechanical safety. Secure implies taking all actions to comply with a standard of unloaded, open breach, pointed in a safe direction that a gun range requires. I hope I've done a better job of supporting my suggested word choice than I did in my earlier overly concise and rather vague post.
     
  17. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

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    Still didn't get at the OP's question, "What do you call an unsafe firearm?". I want to say Gomer, Goober, Gilligan, or Barney Fife. These are all characters from 1960's sitcoms that members of a certain age are familiar with but may not resonate with the younger generation. Trying to find a word from the popular culture that encapsulates dangerous, foolish, negligent condition with the right combination of urgency and cultural meaning.
     
  18. Mercury

    Mercury Member

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    How about using the term "visibly empty"? As in all guns must be visibly empty when not on the firing line or holstered.
     
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