I ordered a new KHAKI Winchester pump for home defense.

[BringHomeTheBacon]

The Remington 870 Express police pump I bought five years ago second-hand sucks. I'm not impressed by new Mossbergs, Benelli Nova/Super Nova, Charles Daly, Savage Stevens, Iver Johnson, Remington and Iron Horse Firearms. Iron Horse Firearms pump shotguns are weird looking and a bit pricey. I don't like the name Kel-Tec and new Ithaca Gun Model 37's and Beretta pumps are way too spendy. I don't like the new Japan-made Brownings.

Once my new Win pump is tested at the range, the Remmy will go up for sale. It has some issues caused by the previous owner's monkeying around with it. The 1990-vintage Mossy 500 I bought a few months back will be my dove gun since it is gloss black and has a field barrel and wood checkered stock already. It has a thin hard rubber recoil pad but should be soft enough shooting for dove loads. Better to have a dedicated home shotgun for burglars. A new blue security barrel for my Mossy runs about $200 and I don't really want to fart around changing barrels and dealing with the magazine plug between hunting birds and home security setup anyway.

The new Win SXP Flat Dark Earth Defender is Turk-made and has this exclusive khaki brown outfit its sporting. A cool tactical pump gun for $305 at GB.com auction brand spanking new with slick hi-vis light-gathering front bead. This gun oddly takes screw-in Invector-Plus choke tubes as a shorty defender model. Hunt doves or grouse with a police pump? Shoot skeet with one? I don't think so. Gladly, this Winchester defender has a CYLINDER tube already from the factory.

Don't ask me where the word "Invector" came from. Browning guns use this brand too.



Who here owns a modern (namely SXP series) Winchester pump and how do you like it?

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

PS - At age 58, this is my FIRST Winchester gun ever.

Gun brands/models I've ever owned to date:

1. Smith & Wesson
2. Colt
3. Browning
4. Glock (never fired as of the date of this posting any Glock I've owned)
5. Winchester (never fired as of the date of this posting)
6. Remington
7. Ruger
8. Uberti (never fired as of the date of this posting)
9. Mossberg
10. Savage Model 99 (never fired as of the date of this posting)
11. Husqvarna
12. Benelli Super Nova (never fired as of the date of this posting)

 

[Milkmaster]

I have the black defender version of the SXP. I also have the Winchester 1300 which is an earlier version. Never had any issues with either model. Just like anything else, some like it and some dont.

 

[PapaG]

Winchester is part of the FN/Browning family. Invector Chokes fit Win, Browning, Mossberg….the originals, not invector plus

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Winchester is part of the FN/Browning family. Invector Chokes fit Win, Browning, Mossberg….the originals, not invector plus

The new gun I ordered is advertised for Invector-Plus at the Winchester site. The curious word "invector" itself is not in the dictionary. Again, it's odd that a "police" pump with an 18" barrel would even use choke tubes. Such defender barrels usually have a fixed cylinder muzzle. Who is going to bird hunt with an 18" barrel?

 

[PapaG]

Nice to have tubes so you can optimize patterns with different sizes of buck or put in a rifled tube for sabots

 

[PapaG]

If it is invector plus it must be backbored oriverbore. Larger than .729 standard but not much. Strange on a riot gun but cool.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

PS - Per the video above, the cross-bolt safety on the SXP is in a bit of an awkward location as compared with my Remmy 870 and other pumps. My Mossy 500 has the safety nicely under my thumb which is important if doves come in over MOJO decoys fast. But I normally keep the home defense pump on the FIRE position anyway since the chamber is always empty out of habit.

 

[gbw]

I have one, it’s ok. The slide action is a bit sticky and loading it will hurt the thumb if not careful.

It’s been reliable. Lightweight so it would be fine for hunting, I like that it takes choke tubes.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I wish more “defender” or “riot” type shotguns took choke tubes.

I would have no problem deer or Turkey hunting with a shorter barrel shotgun and ghost ring sights.

 

[bigmike45]

Good looking gun. I've had 3 shotguns in my life. The first one I bought at the age of 18 was a Winchester Ranger Pump (12ga.) and still have it today 46 years later. I have hunted with it on many types of birds. Second one is also a Winchester Defender Pump (12ga.) in all black, strictly for home defense. It has the shorter barrel with the longer magazine tube. Both have the super slick/smooth pump action that Winchester is known for. Third I have a KelTec KSG Bullpup Pump (12ga.) that is an amazing gun in the fact that it is so short, holds 13 rounds (two magazines that you can mix types of ammo) and has a pump action almost as smooth as my Winchesters. I have never felt the need to have a semi-auto shotgun of any kind, though as I am getting older the thought of simply pulling the trigger to make multiple rounds fire is tempting. Here are my guns:
Winchesters


KelTec

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

I have one, it’s ok. The slide action is a bit sticky and loading it will hurt the thumb if not careful.

It’s been reliable. Lightweight so it would be fine for hunting, I like that it takes choke tubes.

Virtually all pumps have that pesky in-the-way shell carrier that can pinch thumbs save for the Mossy pumps. Mr. 45 shows how a Winpump Turkpump is best loaded. Made in Istanbul, not Constantinople. His Winpump is shooting a tad high because his slip-over butt pad might raise his cheek a bit. His comb height is high. With a bead front sight, your rear firing eye is your rear sight. In most close defense situations precise sighting is often a moot point anyway.

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[I6turbo]

I wish more “defender” or “riot” type shotguns took choke tubes.

I would have no problem deer or Turkey hunting with a shorter barrel shotgun and ghost ring sights.

If it's worth the investment to you, you can have Michael Orlen install screw-in chokes for $65/barrel, plus shipping. You'll also need the chokes, which will run about $30 each. I have the Colonial Sporting Clay chokes in some of my ~19" shotgun barrels and like them a lot. They're quick to change by hand, and they throw very good patterns right at the POA in my guns.

 

[entropy]

You say the 870 sucks, and then get an SXP?
Like those heavy, gritty triggers, do ya?
While I agree the 870 Express, especially from the era yours is from, sucks, with a small amount of tuning can be made into a nice functioning pump.
Well, that's why there are many to choose from, and everyone has their favorites.

The new gun I ordered is advertised for Invector-Plus at the Winchester site. The curious word "invector" itself is not in the dictionary. Again, it's odd that a "police" pump with an 18" barrel would even use choke tubes. Such defender barrels usually have a fixed cylinder muzzle. Who is going to bird hunt with an 18" barrel?

Turkey hunters, grouse and woodcock hunters.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

You say the 870 sucks, and then get an SXP?
Like those heavy, gritty triggers, do ya?
While I agree the 870 Express, especially from the era yours is from, sucks, with a small amount of tuning can be made into a nice functioning pump.
Well, that's why there are many to choose from, and everyone has their favorites.



Turkey hunters, grouse and woodcock hunters.

My Remmy 870:

1. the previous owner chopped a chunk of the pump grip out on the left side to accommodate a shell saddle which I took off the gun coz it's an eye sore: my gun is custom hacked a bit to fit the damn saddle
2. sharp edges about the shell loading area
3. recoil a bit stout in contrast with a Mossy 500 12 ga. police pump I owned in the1990's
4. mine has a deep scratch inside the mag tube which a shell rim may get caught on causing feeding issues, not a design issue, but a previous knucklehead owner issue
5. mag tube not easily replaced, "silvered" to the receiver
6. finicky gun to field strip
7. hard to load and unload shells into/out of mag tube

The plus side of Remington 870 pumps:

1. 6 shots, not 5, with mag extension
2. nice checkering on pistol grip synth stock
3. steel receiver which can be traditionally hot blued unlike alloy/aluminum
4. cross-bolt safety more conveniently located in rear of trigger guard

 

[entropy]

View attachment 1075068 View attachment 1075069 View attachment 1075070

My Remmy 870:

1. the previous owner chopped a chunk of the pump grip out on the left side to accommodate a shell saddle which I took off the gun coz it's an eye sore: my gun is custom hacked a bit to fit the damn saddle
2. sharp edges about the shell loading area
3. recoil a bit stout in contrast with a Mossy 500 12 ga. police pump I owned in the1990's
4. mine has a deep scratch inside the mag tube which a shell rim may get caught on causing feeding issues, not a design issue, but a previous knucklehead owner issue
5. mag tube not easily replaced, "silvered" to the receiver
6. finicky gun to field strip
7. hard to load and unload shells into/out of mag tube

The plus side of Remington 870 pumps:

1. 6 shots, not 5, with mag extension
2. nice checkering on pistol grip synth stock
3. steel receiver which can be traditionally hot blued unlike alloy/aluminum
4. cross-bolt safety more conveniently located in rear of trigger guard

The forend is easily changed, and cleaning up the scratch in the mag tube wouldn't be that hard either.
I don't think the 870 is hard to field strip, but then I've been doing complete disassembly and reassembly of them for 40 years. At least the shell stops don't fall out when you pull the bolt, like a 500.
I will agree that because of the carrier location it is a little harder to load and unload the tube.
While I like and am most used to the 870's safety, I do have a Model 12, so the SXP's safety wouldn't bother me. Does a 1960 Model 12 count as a 'modern' Winchester pump?

 

[SwampWolf]

I don't like the new Japan-made Brownings.

Are the "new" BPS Browning shotguns any different than the ones made by Miroku since 1977?

 

[Milkmaster]

Maybe it is news to me, but isn't the BPS still made by Miroku in Japan? If not, when did it change again? Last one I have was Miroku made in 2007. It has the nicest finish of any pump I own.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I wish more “defender” or “riot” type shotguns took choke tubes.

I would have no problem deer or Turkey hunting with a shorter barrel shotgun and ghost ring sights.

Agreed. A choke belongs on ANY shotgun, not just bird guns. This allows the shotgun to be used for hunting in addition to self defense usage, because let’s face it, shotguns are used for hunting tremendously more than they’re used for actually firing at a human aggressor.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

The forend is easily changed, and cleaning up the scratch in the mag tube wouldn't be that hard either.
I don't think the 870 is hard to field strip, but then I've been doing complete disassembly and reassembly of them for 40 years. At least the shell stops don't fall out when you pull the bolt, like a 500.
I will agree that because of the carrier location it is a little harder to load and unload the tube.
While I like and am most used to the 870's safety, I do have a Model 12, so the SXP's safety wouldn't bother me. Does a 1960 Model 12 count as a 'modern' Winchester pump?

I clarified above stating that when I'd said "modern" I had the SXP series chiefly in mind. This seems like the latest and greatest thing from the age-old American maker of "the gun that won the west" and whose family name has a connection with that batty woman of the infamous San Jose, CA Winchester Mystery House. Have Winchester pump shotguns changed much over the decades? I'm not that familiar with Winchester pumps or Winchester shotguns in general. I think of Win as a rifle company. I once knew a man in the 1990's who bought one with a field barrel and a wooden stock "for birds" but never went bird hunting. Are they more or less the same, mechanically speaking, over the decades? I believe Mossy 500, Ithaca Model 37 and Remmy 870 have been the same since day one as far as "basic design" goes. Winchester pumps seemed to be mentioned a lot in 1960's/1970's police drama films.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Agreed. A choke belongs on ANY shotgun, not just bird guns. This allows the shotgun to be used for hunting in addition to self defense usage, because let’s face it, shotguns are used for hunting tremendously more than they’re used for actually firing at a human aggressor.

But hunting shotguns generally have a long FIELD barrel. Has to do with swing and balance. Would a dove, pheasant or duck be super tough to hit with a POLICE pump and a proper choke and load? If you can stalk a deer in the woods within pistol range, you might take one with a slug or with buck from a "riot" gun even with a simple bead front sight. A choke-tube riot gun might be great for procuring meat in emergencies. Maybe as a camping gun, a boat gun or a bush plane survival gun. With slugs, police pumps make good bear defenders.

 

[entropy]

Son, you have a lot to learn about Winchester pump shotguns. They are generally divided by the year 1964, when Winchester made changes in their gun lineup, not only with shotguns, but with rifles.
Pre-64 rifles bring a premium, as do the shotguns.
Winchester made what are 2 of the most iconic pump shotguns ever made, the Model 1897, and the Model 12. The 97 from 1897 to 1957, (plus there was the Model 93, a non-takedown predecessor to the 97), and the Model 12 was made from 1912 to 1964. (There was also a non-takedown version of it, the Model 25.) These were solid, machined, guns made the "old fashioned way", by skilled laborers by hand.
In 1964, Winchester, in an effort to compete with Remington and it's already iconic 870, (introduced in 1950) dropped hand machining from their production process on the models of guns they kept, and and dropped the Model 12 altogether, though the Model 12 'Y's were assembled from parts on hand sporadically until they were exhausted in 1971.
To replace the Model 12, they introduced the abomination called the 1200, which your SXP is based on. Well, abomination might be too strong a word, but if you ever get a chance you handle and fire both, you'll know what I mean. I have owned and fired both, the 1200 briefly, as I inherited the one my Dad bought for my grandpa for a pheasant hunt. I traded it for an 870 not long after. My Dad liked the 1200 as a riot gun, as that what rode in the squad car next to him, but ironically he never owned one himself. Hmmm....
The 1200 looked cheap and ugly compared to the Model 12, as does the SXP. They tend to break ejectors easily, and I suggest picking up a spare. Fortunately, they are easy to replace.
There are some good points to the 1200/1300 (a fancier 1200) and the SXP. They open and eject very fast compared to most pumps. As you already know, they are easy to take apart to clean, and you don't have to worry about scuffing up a 'pretty' gun.
Your reply to JCooperfan1911 is a bit shortsighted. (pun intended) There are indeed hunting uses for cylinder bore (no choke) shotguns, as many deer hunters in the Midwest will attest. They are handy for grouse and woodcock also, which are generally shot very close. (or not at all.) They also work for hunting bear, and hogs, as well as carried for bear defense where needed. Some Professional Hunters (what the call guides in Africa) prefer them for following up wounded lions, leopards, and Plains game.
Adding changeable choke tubes, and that 'riot' gun becomes a good Turkey gun, as well as tunable for slug accuracy. You've seen I6turbo's short, choke tubes shotguns, which he prefers for almost all uses. ( though he has a really nice long barreled Ithaca 37 pump)
I haven't even mentioned rifled slug barrels for big game yet. They turn what used to be considered a 50 yard maximum effective range for deer into out past 200. The nice thing about those for a pump gun is, you can switch barrels quickly. Often pumps are sold with a bird barrel, usually 28", and a slug or 'riot' barrel, usually 18 or 20".
For someone starting out with a first shotgun, the SXP is a decent choice. A lot of the kids I coached for Trap had them, as they are a fairly priced and versatile gun. And as a change from your 870 that needs some attention, as well as an option to the 500 once in a while, not a bad choice. I still advise you to get the 870 fixed up (the mag tube doesn't need to be removed and changed, it can be worked on in situ), there's a reason they are so popular both with sportsmen, and law enforcement/ military, though the 500/590 have underbid the 870 on those for the last 2 decades.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Son, you have a lot to learn about Winchester pump shotguns. They are generally divided by the year 1964, when Winchester made changes in their gun lineup, not only with shotguns, but with rifles.
Pre-64 rifles bring a premium, as do the shotguns.
Winchester made what are 2 of the most iconic pump shotguns ever made, the Model 1897, and the Model 12. The 97 from 1897 to 1957, (plus there was the Model 93, a non-takedown predecessor to the 97), and the Model 12 was made from 1912 to 1964. (There was also a non-takedown version of it, the Model 25.) These were solid, machined, guns made the "old fashioned way", by skilled laborers by hand.
In 1964, Winchester, in an effort to compete with Remington and it's already iconic 870, (introduced in 1950) dropped hand machining from their production process on the models of guns they kept, and and dropped the Model 12 altogether, though the Model 12 'Y's were assembled from parts on hand sporadically until they were exhausted in 1971.
To replace the Model 12, they introduced the abomination called the 1200, which your SXP is based on. Well, abomination might be too strong a word, but if you ever get a chance you handle and fire both, you'll know what I mean. I have owned and fired both, the 1200 briefly, as I inherited the one my Dad bought for my grandpa for a pheasant hunt. I traded it for an 870 not long after. My Dad liked the 1200 as a riot gun, as that what rode in the squad car next to him, but ironically he never owned one himself. Hmmm....
The 1200 looked cheap and ugly compared to the Model 12, as does the SXP. They tend to break ejectors easily, and I suggest picking up a spare. Fortunately, they are easy to replace.
There are some good points to the 1200/1300 (a fancier 1200) and the SXP. They open and eject very fast compared to most pumps. As you already know, they are easy to take apart to clean, and you don't have to worry about scuffing up a 'pretty' gun.
Your reply to JCooperfan1911 is a bit shortsighted. (pun intended) There are indeed hunting uses for cylinder bore (no choke) shotguns, as many deer hunters in the Midwest will attest. They are handy for grouse and woodcock also, which are generally shot very close. (or not at all.) They also work for hunting bear, and hogs, as well as carried for bear defense where needed. Some Professional Hunters (what the call guides in Africa) prefer them for following up wounded lions, leopards, and Plains game.
Adding changeable choke tubes, and that 'riot' gun becomes a good Turkey gun, as well as tunable for slug accuracy. You've seen I6turbo's short, choke tubes shotguns, which he prefers for almost all uses. ( though he has a really nice long barreled Ithaca 37 pump)
I haven't even mentioned rifled slug barrels for big game yet. They turn what used to be considered a 50 yard maximum effective range for deer into out past 200. The nice thing about those for a pump gun is, you can switch barrels quickly. Often pumps are sold with a bird barrel, usually 28", and a slug or 'riot' barrel, usually 18 or 20".
For someone starting out with a first shotgun, the SXP is a decent choice. A lot of the kids I coached for Trap had them, as they are a fairly priced and versatile gun. And as a change from your 870 that needs some attention, as well as an option to the 500 once in a while, not a bad choice. I still advise you to get the 870 fixed up (the mag tube doesn't need to be removed and changed, it can be worked on in situ), there's a reason they are so popular both with sportsmen, and law enforcement/ military, though the 500/590 have underbid the 870 on those for the last 2 decades.

It sounds like the new Winchester SXP I bought then be might junk. I bought it based upon band name, looks and price point as well as iconic Winchester reputation as a major American gun trademark. I never thought any WINCHESTER could ever be a bad gun. I still have not received this gun yet as it is a mail order in transit to my local FFL. I may have just bought a new gun not knowing what I was really getting into. I want a pump shotgun that is "Toyota Reliable" for home defense. I can't have a gun fail me in a life-or-death situation.

Now I'm finding this article trashing new SXP's:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/winchester-sxp-beware-major-known-problem.540549/

This 2o18 NRA article is praising the SXP, however:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/range-review-winchester-sxp-defender-pump-shotgun/#:~:text=The 20-gauge Winchester SXP,your back in an emergency.

They were testing a 20-guage model but I can't see how a 12 ga. would be made crappier in Istanbul, not Constantinople.

 

[SwampWolf]

cross-bolt safety more conveniently located in rear of trigger guard

A small thing, really, and subjective but when it comes to cross-bolt safety locations, I much prefer them mounted in the front as opposed to the rear. My index (trigger) finger is kept parallel above the trigger when hunting and I think it's faster to move from the safety directly back to the trigger than moving back to the safety and then forward to the trigger. Most of it is just what you're used to. Imo, the best place ever to put a safety on a repeating shotgun is where the Browning Double-Auto's is located-behind the trigger guard, where the second finger accesses it in an upwards direction; equally suitable for right and left-handed shooters.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Mossberg has the best safety location of all: under my thumb up on the tang. This is great for hunting situations like doves where you have to get the safety off fast. My Mossy 500 is my dove gun. Defensive pumps with cross-bolt safeties on trigger guards are OK for me since I leave them on FIRE while the gun is standing guard with an empty chamber for safety. The gun would be racked as soon as a home invasion was detected and that might even scare the intruder away. I had to train myself to double check my safety to make sure it's on FIRE while the gun is stowed and to check the safety again by feeling in the dark should the gun be picked up in an emergency. Forgetting a safety that's left on SAFE can be deadly in a situation. I believe the
cross-bolt position is the same for all guns with cross-bolt safeties including Remington, Winchester and Benelli Nova. Push RIGHT button to FIGHT bad guy. That is to press the right button in a left-ward direction with the right hand on the right side of the trigger guard. With Mossberg, it's Push FORWARD to FIRE. Remember the F in FORWARD and FIRE. It's good to know and memorize your safety position by touch in the dark. Have your own quirky method of memorizing gun controls by feel. Color codes on safeties, RED = READY to fire.

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