I sent this email to S&W

[tubeshooter]

Your idea is decent enough, but I completely understand why S&W would not want to do it.
Somebody would hot rod it and complain.

Then S&W would be telling you to go buy a steel gun. Like they already offer.


I bet they would like the idea of selling you a 3" 360PD for $1300+ MSRP much better.

 

[CoalTrain49]

If you were living in an area where the prosecutor or district attorney has a D next to their name, you're gonna be in for a legal hurting whether you use factory ammo or reloads. Heck, depending on the caliber you use that can get you in hot water as I'm sure others have heard the story of the guy who used a 10mm, but that was outside his home.

The bottom line is if you're justified in shooting someone, you're justified. Using non-factory ammo doesn't automatically make a justified shooting into manslaughter or homicide.

Exactly. There are lots of other things to consider. Ammo is pretty low on the priority list. Some prosecutor that graduated at the bottom of his class (low paid D public servant) that thinks he's going to make a case on ammo selection needs a reality check.

My response would be I didn't know exactly what ammo was in my pistol because I use both. Could have been either one. I don't keep track.

 

[StrawHat]

I don’t bother with YouTube. Can somebody summarize what Ayoob and Wilson are talking about?


Kevin

 

[fxvr5]

Your idea is decent enough, but I completely understand why S&W would not want to do it.
Somebody would hot rod it and complain.

People hotrod guns regardless of barrel length. In fact, one could argue they hotrod the 2" guns more frequently because they produce less speed.

 

[fxvr5]

I stand corrected. I must've been thinking about 22LR vs. 22 WMR.

I admit that I'm curious as to why. 357 Mag has a lot more powder, and slower-burning, but if it burns outside the barrel, how is it so much faster?!

357 loads start at much higher chamber pressure than 38 Spl, so they get one hell of a boost from the start.

 

[Smaug]

I'm always amazed what good feedback I get in this forum. We are truly a cut above.

Yeah, compared to autos, the demand for revolvers is so low that any new model, even if it's just making it a lighter alloy frame is too much work to make it profitable.

Well, based on the amount of Airweight 38 snubbies S&W offers, I think they must be doing QUITE well on revolvers. ;-)

The future of the revolver is definitely in lightweight snubs and the smaller they can be, the better, but the handgun market is geared for autoloaders and that is never going to change.

Respectfully, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Granted, autos are doing very well, but things have a way of coming back into fashion. Many people realize the advantages (and disadvantages) of revolvers, and they choose a revolver in the end.

38 Spl is about as dead as the 44 Spl regarding new gun sales. We all know how delightful either of those can be but not many people want to buy one when they can have a magnum cartridge.

I respectfully disagree. 38 Spl is nowhere NEAR as dead as 44 Spl. Just go shopping for ammo and that will tell the story. (especially in brick & mortar stores, you'll be lucky to find two factory loadings of 44 Spl. 38 will be much more healthy.

A Model 60, but in 38Spl and with an airweight frame? So basically, you want a 3" Model 637?

No, but close. I want an 36, with a bobbed or enclosed hammer. GOSH that's a handsome little gun!

I thought the same thing.

Or, a reissue of this new-to-me 3” nickel plated Model 37:

Woo, that is a BEAUTY! Was that a stealth gloat? :-D

If you only want to exclusively use it for .38 Special what does it matter if a small bit of carbon builds up in the cylinder? Since you only shoot .38 Special in it you will never ever notice the difference.

I cannot argue with this. It makes too much sense. Especially as a handloader who will shoot everything but carry ammo in 357 cases.
As an engineer, I would rather not carry a longer and heavier gun than necessary. I'd rather have the shorter cylinder of the 38.

Mas Ayoob, again, covers in a very, very
recent commentary the use of factory
vs. reloads in defensive shootings. It's
on the Wilson Combat video site and
titled "Handloads for self-defense."

Massad Ayoob is my Gun Guy Idol. I've been reading his columns since I was a kid, much too young to own a gun. He make so much sense, all the time. He's so polished and reasonable, all the time. I wish he was running the NRA.

To anyone who thinks he won't get shafted for using handloads in a defense situation, please watch this video in its entirety:

​

 

[Smaug]

↑ Maybe the most important thing in that Ayoob video is that gunshot residue from a factory load is admissible evidence. It tells a big story, sometimes.

 

[tubeshooter]

Yeah, people hot rod and always will.
I'm thinking more in terms of frame construction than barrel length.


I would argue that people would try to get just a little more out of a 3" gun on average. Anyway - it would cannibalize sales from certain models almost certainly. But again, not an awful idea or anything.

 

[StrawHat]

deleted

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yes, hand loads are a liability nightmare if you have to shoot someone with it.

Another consideration. Cartridge selection.

Can you tell us why you carry a .357 revolver for self defense instead of a 38 spl?

Because it's a good self defense cartridge? IDK.

 

[fxvr5]

As an engineer, I would rather not carry a longer and heavier gun than necessary. I'd rather have the shorter cylinder of the 38.

A good engineer would check the specs. The SAAMI max length of a 38 Special round is 1.550". The SAAMI max length of a 357 Magnum round is 1.590".

I don't think 0.040" makes much of a difference in cylinder length. S&W uses the same cylinder length on the 38 and 357 revolvers in current production. They measure 1.594 on my examples (642, 60).

 

[Smaug]

Just for fun, here's a vintage Massad Ayoob video:

 

[fxvr5]

Yeah, people hot rod and always will.
I'm thinking more in terms of frame construction than barrel length.

I would argue that people would try to get just a little more out of a 3" gun on average. Anyway - it would cannibalize sales from certain models almost certainly. But again, not an awful idea or anything.

They already get more from a 3" gun. It has a 1" longer barrel than a 2" gun.

 

[Ethan Verity]

A Model 60, but in 38Spl and with an airweight frame? So basically, you want a 3" Model 637?

No, but close. I want an 36, with a bobbed or enclosed hammer. GOSH that's a handsome little gun!

The 36 is a beautiful little J-frame, but I'm just going off of your original request:

I would like to humbly recommend for your consideration to build a Model 60 Performance Center Edition, but in 38 Special +P and with an Airweight frame to keep it light.

The Model 36 is a steel frame revolver.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm always amazed what good feedback I get in this forum. We are truly a cut above.


Well, based on the amount of Airweight 38 snubbies S&W offers, I think they must be doing QUITE well on revolvers. ;-)


Respectfully, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Granted, autos are doing very well, but things have a way of coming back into fashion. Many people realize the advantages (and disadvantages) of revolvers, and they choose a revolver in the end.




I respectfully disagree. 38 Spl is nowhere NEAR as dead as 44 Spl. Just go shopping for ammo and that will tell the story. (especially in brick & mortar stores, you'll be lucky to find two factory loadings of 44 Spl. 38 will be much more healthy.



No, but close. I want an 36, with a bobbed or enclosed hammer. GOSH that's a handsome little gun!



Woo, that is a BEAUTY! Was that a stealth gloat? :-D



I cannot argue with this. It makes too much sense. Especially as a handloader who will shoot everything but carry ammo in 357 cases.
As an engineer, I would rather not carry a longer and heavier gun than necessary. I'd rather have the shorter cylinder of the 38.


Massad Ayoob is my Gun Guy Idol. I've been reading his columns since I was a kid, much too young to own a gun. He make so much sense, all the time. He's so polished and reasonable, all the time. I wish he was running the NRA.

To anyone who thinks he won't get shafted for using handloads in a defense situation, please watch this video in its entirety:

​

Nobody I know carries hand loads for SD. Not because of the liability issues, but because of the reliability issues. It's a common topic for YT celebrities but it's about as common as verified alien abductions. I have a relative (attorney) that does personal injury suits. Same deal, polished and can make a reasonable argument against just about anything you want to discuss. Far more successful than Massad because Ayoob isn't an attorney. I'm not trying to take anything away from Ayoob, but he makes his money being a celebrity, not from representing clients in court. Big difference.

 

[fxvr5]

Nobody I know carries hand loads for SD.

That means nothing.

Massad Ayoob isn't an attorney. I'm not trying to take anything away from Ayoob, but he makes his money being a celebrity, not from representing clients in court.

He's not a lawyer, but is considered an expert witness.
https://massadayoobgroup.com/who/

 

[JohnKSa]

Went to a Texas BAR Continuing Legal Education conference on firearm law some years ago. Ayoob was a speaker. I thought it was interesting that an organization specializing in legal education would pay him to talk at one of their functions.

 

[CoalTrain49]

That means nothing.



He's not a lawyer, but is considered an expert witness.
https://massadayoobgroup.com/who/

Do you carry handloads for self defense?

Anyone who practices in a professional capacity, doctor, commercial pilot, engineer etc. can be considered an expert witness in court. If you were a mechanical engineer and your knowledge of solid waste systems was vast you could be an expert witness also. I think Mr. Ayoob is better known as a self defense instructor and writer.

 

[Rodfac]

A 3" bbl'd Smith J or K frame revolver has always made a lot of sense to me and I've carried one for at least 35 years now. I'm on my 3rd, a M-60 with adjustable sights...I've dropped it several times, been thrown from a horse twice and once fell out of a jeep door with one strapped on...but never had problems with those "fragile" adjustable sights. And while we're talking about them, I find that they're very useful if you shoot a variety of ammunition bullet weights...one of the .38 spl & .357 magnum's fine attributes. My loads run from 120 gr wadcutters through 125 gr JHP's, 158 gr JHP and LSWC'S all the way up to 180 gr cast round noses....flexibility that's what adjustable sights do for you.

Too, the 3" bbl length adds just enough inter-sight distance to significantly affect accuracy. All three of my M-60 Smith's were 3 inchers and all three could make sub 2" groups, on point of aim (due to those "fragile" adj. sights), from 15+yds using a two-handed modified Weaver stance, unsupported. It's just a great intermediate bbl. length that's fully as concealable as the 1-7/8" bbl's. Holster choices can be limiting however...and since I make my own, that's not a factor...OWB at 3-4 o'clock with a shirt tail or jacket to cover the piece is easy in anything but a wife-beater shirt and speedos.

I carry gold dot 135 gr +P's in .38 spl as a rule as they're easier to get a clean ejection at speed than .357's...but again the longer ejector rod carried on a Smith 3" J frame really helps in that regard. Those gold dots in +P .38 spl are authoritative, good penetrators with expansion and contrary to internet lore, do not etch or severely gunk up the fwd part of the chambers. Regular cleaning after a range session is the key...

Here's a pair of mine in .22 & .357...models 63 & 60. Good guns, easy to get good hits with, and easy to conceal.... Rod

image url host​

 

[Mosin77]

The other advantage to that is that .357 brass loaded to .38 specs will last several more loadings than .38 brass.

…which already last more or less forever, so, kind of a moot point. But still a point worth bringing up, since we’re in the realm of “my gun might be permanently altered by .38s.”

 

[Jim Watson]

I had a 3" M37 for a while.
Too long for a pocket, just as well have a sixshooter in a holster.
Not much fun to shoot.

A hypothetical M612 would be useful. Even Taurus can sell the type.

 

[Varminterror]

The original email appears to be a dumpster fire of personal biases, exaggerations, and internet lore, so personally, I’m not on board.

I own - and buy - snubnosed revolvers, recognizing that the market is dwindling for these outdated weapons. As part of the market which DOES have interest in this product type, I would 10 out of 10 times buy a .357magnum chambered model over a .38+P only revolver. And I do and have selectively not purchased revolvers which I otherwise favored BECAUSE they were only .38spcl +P chambered, rather than 357magnum.

Observationally, the only discrepancy I can recall in market trends to that comparison has been the Ruger LCR, for which the lighter .38spcl model largely outsold the heavier and more expensive .357magnum model - for which the purchases were likely motivated NOT by preference for .38spcl+P but rather preference for lower weight and lower cost.

 

[Old_Grouch]

which already last more or less forever, so, kind of a moot point.

That hasn't been my experience. I often find split .38 brass. I rarely see a split .357 case. I load both using 231 or unique with 158 grn cast to an average chronographed velocity of about 850 fps. I'm not a hotrodder.
One thing I've noticed over the years though...... Nickeled brass seems to split more often than non nickeled. I've never compiled any data so just a casual observation.

 

[Mosin77]

That hasn't been my experience. I often find split .38 brass. I rarely see a split .357 case. I load both using 231 or unique with 158 grn cast to an average chronographed velocity of about 850 fps. I'm not a hotrodder.
One thing I've noticed over the years though...... Nickeled brass seems to split more often than non nickeled. I've never compiled any data so just a casual observation.

The nickeled brass never lasts for me. I avoid it unless I want my loads to look especially pretty for some occasion.

 

[Old_Grouch]

And I do and have selectively not purchased revolvers which I otherwise favored BECAUSE they were only .38spcl +P chambered, rather than 357magnum.

I agree with this sentiment, to a point. I have 3 .38 only guns. One is a Model 10 because it's such a classic and, to my eye, an aesthetically pleasing gun. One is a Model 15 as I have an emotional attachment to that model, and the other is a Model 642, my daily carry. I would not ever fire a .357 in it if it were chambered for it. I have a Model 360 .357. No way I'll fire a .357 in an alloy J Frame. Sometime in my 30s, when adulthood truly set in, I gave up the notion that I had to regularly reaffirm my manly hairy chestedness by physically punishing myself.