I Think I Killed My S&W 610!

[Panzerschwein]

Yet another reason S&W is now a shadow of it's former self. They have been changing they'r manufacturing techniques for years now, and the guns are now built to a price point with little regard for performance of quality.

They are now one notch above a Tauri, while in yesteryear were second to none only to Colt of course.

 

[Jim K]

DO NOT trust a local gunsmith to correct that problem. Send it to the factory.

There is no way an S&W barrel can be set back a thread without causing all kinds of problems with the front end.

Jim

 

[Havok7416]

DO NOT trust a local gunsmith to correct that problem. Send it to the factory.

There is no way an S&W barrel can be set back a thread without causing all kinds of problems with the front end.

Jim

No worries, Jim! The gun should be on its way to S&W as I write this.

I will be posting back here to let everyone know how it went - hopefully in the next month or so. I just found a bunch of loaded .40 S&W here at the house and have nothing else to shoot them in!

 

[mackg]

Told to me by a gunsmith, after he called the repair center: "Yes, it's a problem with them". The gun was a then new 29 Classic ('90?). He accepted a trade for an assortment of gun and goodies.

 

[Onmilo]

I take offense to whoever said you can't set a S&W barrel back a thread without causing problems since I have done so to several over the years.
Screwed up barrels, forcing cones, cylinder gap, and cylinder alignment is/was pretty common with Bangor Punta made Smiths.

 

[CraigC]

There is no way an S&W barrel can be set back a thread without causing all kinds of problems with the front end.

Why is that?

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Dumb question time.

How did the front lock fit with the ejector rod? Was it fully engaged or not completely?

 

[Havok7416]

I assume it was fully engaged but I didn't check before I handed it over.

 

[mnrivrat]

Not many years ago S&W had an issue with over torque on the barrel. A few notes:

Crush fitting was a cost savings over pinned & recessed
The barrels are torqued by machine and not by hand
I have only seen this on stainless guns.
S&W uses right hand threads.
Your barrel is likely cracked and will seperate from the gun with shooting. The reason the barrel is turned is because of the cracking right where the barrel and frame meet.

See pictures of a couple of S&W that flew apart at the range for just such a problem.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I had a King Cobra that canted after about 25k rounds. My gunsmith took it off and used red Loctite when he reinstalled it. I have put several thousand rounds thru it since with no issues.

 

[Jim K]

I probably should have said that I don't consider it practical to set an S&W barrel back a thread. It is possible, but tricky, since the extractor rod has to interface with the lock in the barrel underlug. (S&W has used other front locks, but their main production is still made that way.)

If the barrel is set back, the extractor rod and the center pin have to be trimmed to fit and that involves some neat lathe work to trim the extractor rod at the rear (and if threads have to be cut, they are left hand threads on guns made in the last several decades). The alternative is to cut the front, which leaves the knurling looking odd unless you have the knurling tool to match the S&W work.

So, can an S&W barrel be set back? Yes, and I should not have said it isn't possible. But I will still say it isn't practical, and I wouldn't do it if I could send the gun back to S&W.

Jim

 

[DT Guy]

Not many years ago S&W had an issue with over torque on the barrel. A few notes:

Crush fitting was a cost savings over pinned & recessed
The barrels are torqued by machine and not by hand
I have only seen this on stainless guns.
S&W uses right hand threads.
Your barrel is likely cracked and will seperate from the gun with shooting. The reason the barrel is turned is because of the cracking right where the barrel and frame meet.

See pictures of a couple of S&W that flew apart at the range for just such a problem.

I absolutely CANNOT imagine the underwear-destroying psychological effect of shooting the end of my revolver clean off the gun. That has to be terrifying.....



Larry

 

[CraigC]

If the barrel is set back, the extractor rod and the center pin have to be trimmed to fit and that involves some neat lathe work to trim the extractor rod at the rear (and if threads have to be cut, they are left hand threads on guns made in the last several decades).

It's a greater feat of machine work to precisely cut the threads and move the barrel shoulder back just enough so that it torques down properly with the barrel rib indexed correctly. If your gunsmith can't accomplish this, he probably shouldn't be working on your revolver in the first place.

 

[Jim K]

Maybe, but remember that the extractor/underlug work is in addition to the barrel work. My point is that "just set the barrel back" isn't always the simplistic answer most folks who say it believe it to be.

I once read a post responding to a question about headspace tell the OP to "just have the barrel set back a thread and it will be OK" - on an M1 rifle. "Just"?

Jim

 

[buck460XVR]

I ain't a gunsmith, but it seems if the barrel is over-torqued, and needs to be turned out to correct clocking of the front sight,, that the cylinder gap may be increased and become unacceptable. Thus one would have to cut new threads appropriately so that over-clocking/under clocking does not occur again and the cylinder gap and forcing cone recut. IMHO, this is not a process for the average "basement" gunsmith and should be a warranty issue corrected by the factory, if it truly needs to be done.......


What am I missing?

 

[Havok7416]

I ain't a gunsmith, but it seems if the barrel is over-torqued, and needs to be turned out to correct clocking of the front sight,, that the cylinder gap may be increased and become unacceptable. Thus one would have to cut new threads appropriately so that over-clocking/under clocking does not occur again and the cylinder gap and forcing cone recut. IMHO, this is not a process for the average "basement" gunsmith and should be a warranty issue corrected by the factory, if it truly needs to be done.......


What am I missing?

The 'smith I talked to actually mentioned this and said he could not do it on site, but would have to send it to the corporate-level gunsmith. This is why it's going to S&W first. I do tend to agree that local gunsmiths I don't know are about my last choice for work - at least until I can get to know them and their work.

 

[CraigC]

My point is that "just set the barrel back" isn't always the simplistic answer most folks who say it believe it to be.

Most people have no idea what is involved in most gunsmith operations, even the most basic. That doesn't make the answer any less correct. In this case, it is the proper solution. I have a fair understanding of what is involved so while the answer is a simple one, "set the barrel back a thread", I know that it is not a simple operation to affect it.

 

[Havok7416]

Well here's the promised update.

I got a call saying my 610 was done, so I went to the store this weekend. The gunsmith explained everything over the phone. The gun was beautiful, with the barrel clearly realigned, except... there's a brand new FLUTED cylinder on the gun! I'm absolutely furious about this and I haven't signed for the gun yet.

The gunsmith is supposed to call me today or tomorrow (he wasn't there when I went in) so we can discuss options. I either want an unfluted cylinder back on the gun or a VERY good explanation from S&W as to why they changed it.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Not cool

 

[pendennis]

Smith & Wesson, in the 1950's, had a department in which barrels were "soft fit", before the top of the barrel was drilled through for the pin installation. During the mid-late 1950's, the "soft fit" department was eliminated, and S&W started the so-called "crush fit" of barrels. Colt had been "crush fitting" barrels for years, so the technique wasn't new, even then. S&W continued using the pin in revolver assembly until ca. 1982, when it stopped the practice, and discontinued recessing cylinders in magnum calibers.

While S&W has had quality problems, the clocking of the barrel doesn't necessarily mean that the gun won't shoot accurately. It is a bit ugly looking, thinking that an $800 revolver doesn't look symmetrical.

Still, one would think that with modern machining practices that the barrel fitting would be a bit closer to a true alignment, barrel-to-frame.

 

[MrBorland]

clocking of the barrel doesn't necessarily mean that the gun won't shoot accurately.

I think you really mean it doesn't necessarily mean the gun won't shoot precisely. Technically, a clocked barrel will certainly affect the gun's accuracy, though. Personally, I want a gun that's precise and accurate...and with the cylinder it went to S&W with.

 

[Havok7416]

The gunsmith called me today with some very bad news. It appears I have killed my 610 - at least the value of it anyway. The old (unfluted) cylinder was a special production item and S&W says they no longer have the tooling to produce it. Furthermore, the reason they replaced it was because it was "overbored", even though I have had difficulty seating rounds in the chambers in the past. To make matters worse they have also scrapped the cylinder, which was confirmed with a separate phone call. How hard would it have been for them to make a simple phone call before proceeding?

No one asked them to look at or fix anything except the barrel and I am VERY pissed. At this point my only options are to take delivery of the revolver or leave it at the store for good, which obviously wouldn't be very intelligent. I don't think I have any further actions open to me, although if someone has a better idea I'm all ears. I'm very sad though, the unfluted cylinder was about half the reason I wanted the gun in the first place.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

That all sucks, but if the gun shoots ok then honestly, I think your anger will diminish after shooting it again. They should have informed you, but they probably figured you'd want your gun back and useable. So really, whatcha gonna do?

Sorry for your troubles.

 

[mnrivrat]

Sorry for your loss. I have some appeal for unfluted cylinders myself but it is purely (for all practical purposes) cosmetic. I recognize that any special run of S&W guns seems to draw future collector interest and increased value, I can understand your loss may be more than cosmetic.


The question I am left to ask is what was the cause and fix on the clocking of the barrel ? And does the 610 have the two part barrrel ?

 

[Havok7416]

Mnrivrat, I still haven't found the cause. Reading through this thread, there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus. S&W did not provide any insight either.

As for fixing it, the gunsmith said they did pretty much what he originally thought by turning the threads back and realigning it. The forcing cone had to be redone also, but I couldn't see what they did. The topstrap at the point where it meets the barrel looked like it had been smoothed out and was very well done. As soon as I get the gun back this weekend I'll get some pictures of everything.

As far as I know, the 610 has a one part barrel.