I think I'm going to cry

[chaim]

I was over at Gunbroker looking over 1911s (yeah, I know- I have to wait until I'm working again, but I can look can't I). Anyway, I came across this particular auction that just makes me want to cry (note if you are into historical guns you may not want to look):

http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18408827


They took a real WWII 1911 and destroyed it. Fine, if you want a carry gun with your carry mods, buy a new production model. With the affordable Charles Daly, Norinco, Auto-Ordinance, and others out there, there's no need to destroy this one that before the mods was probably worth double what it is now worth. :banghead:

I understand that people have a right to do what they want with their property, but when people destroy a piece of history like this (and with me being into history) it just makes me want to cry, and

 

[Josey]

I'll go with you. It seems that someone found same parts, a frame and a slide and assembled them. I would not shoot that POJ. The frame is ruined.

 

[M2HMGHB]

Jeez chaim you weren't kidding. That's the most disgusting thing I've seen since Bill Clinton was elected!

 

[XLMiguel]

Now that is gun porn.

 

[Kharn]

I get when people "customize" a Sistema for a carry gun.
I go and get very when I see a geniune US Property 1911 get bubba-ized.

To make it worse, I'm 120 miles from home and cant hug my Sistema to make the horrible pictures of that poor Ithaca go away.

Kharn

 

[Third_Rail]

This is almost as bad as someone taking a WWI or WWII trenchgun and "sporterizing" it with modern accessories, chopping it, new stock, etc.

People are so ignorant as to how irreplacable history is.

 

[tcsd1236]

Right up through the 60s, 1911s were considered junk and were being surplused out for ridiculously low prices. After WW2, lots of rifles were being sporterized...so this is nothing new.

With the exception of the melt job, most of those modifications could have been done anytime in the last 30 years, when surplus WW2 1911s were seen as just that..surplus, and of no particular collecting value.

Same thing happens with cars; look at all the old jalopies that were chopped up and made into something radically different in the 50s and 60s because the vehicle in its original configuration wa sseen as having little or no value.

 

[Tamara]

Depends on when it was done and what the gun looked like before it was done.

Was the gun a rustpile of unmatched parts? Believe it or not, just because it's old don't make it valuable; condition matters, too.

When was it done? Twenty-something years ago, GI 1911's were pretty thick on the ground, and I've seen plenty of factory Wilson and Pachmayr raceguns with "U.S. Gov't Property" stamps. The reason your unaltered '03A3 is worth so dang much is because so many of them got bubba-ized into deer rifles back in the fifties and sixties. Believe it or not, someday there'll be folks saying "No! Don't put a scope on that Mosin! There's so few good original ones left!"

You gotta look at things in context.

I wouldn't bubba-ize my '43 byf 98k because, despite its mismatched numbers, it's a pre-'68 gun without import marks and in very good shape, to boot. I had no problem sporterizing my Turkish Mauser, though, because they're pretty thick on the ground right now and it was a cosmoline-soaked rustbucket that didn't headspace, to boot.

 

[GUNSMOKE45441]

It doesn't look like the frame made it to Ithaca, I couldn't see their stamp on it .
After the war ended guns that were not completed by various manufactuers were returned to a central point and completed for the services.
This being said, looks like it was screwed up by someone w/a pick axe.

Smokey



:banghead:

 

[BluesBear]

What's the big deal?

They took a $50 gun and turned it into a $100 gun.

I have seen much much worse. Back in the late 1960s a war surplus 45 was worth $50 tops. Hells Bells you could buya NEW Colt for $125. The day after my 21st birthday I bought a brand spanking new MkIV Series 70 for the princely sum of $210 out the door.

Is it a shame that someone butchered a nice old gun? Yes but back then it was no big deal.

Remember that back in 1973 a 1963 Fender Stratocaster was just a used guitar worth around $100. (A new one was $383 retail)

In 1963 a '57 Chevy Bel-Aire was just a used car.

Times change and so does your perspective.

 

[BigG]

Say - what's a matter with bubba? You guys should have more respeck.
BigbubbaG

 

[RustyHammer]

 

[Unlucky]

Collectible or not, the "customizing" on that gun was a crime.

 

[Erich]

Sorry, I'm with BluesBear: it doesn't bother me much.

Certainly I like clean historical guns, but you have to face the facts that 1) there used to be a lot of them available for cheap and 2) a lot of work got done on those cheap ones. Haven't we all heard curmudgeons' stories about rooting through the barrels of 1911s, all available for some horrendously low price ($15?)?

Hey, nothing in the GB ad suggests the seller did the work himself. And I've owned a similar gun.

Back in the early '90s I bought a 1917 Remington-Rand 1911 with U.S. Property markings that had been re-done into a silly high polish blue (it was actually fairly pretty). I was in law school at the time, and the guy who owned the gun store I used to manage sold it to me for $225 (he got a kick out of making my day with a good deal now and then - very nice of him). The gun's internals had been played with as well, a very nice ramping/throating/polish job. That totally ruined any collectible value, so I had no problems adding to the damage by dropping some IWI tritium sights on it. It was a great shooter and carry gun, and, frankly, it's the only 1911-type that I've ever regretted trading away.

The perfect condition guns are always a treat to see, but the existence of a modified one doesn't bother me. We're not talking about the last Truffula Tree (note childhood Dr. Seuss reference: The Lorax ): there are plenty of minty lovely old historical .45s around.

 

[ScottS]

Remember that back in 1973 a 1963 Fender Stratocaster was just a used guitar worth around $100. (A new one was $383 retail)

In 1963 a '57 Chevy Bel-Aire was just a used car.

Times change and so does your perspective.

This subject comes up again and again, in many different forums. This is the best post I have seen on this subject to date.

Scott

 

[Archie]

Tamara scores again.

That particular pistol looks like a "Hardball" gun from the 50s or 60s. As the ad mentions, it's a Ithaca frame and a Colt slide, so the "original" GI gun was most likely an arsenal rebuild. That frontstrap treatment was not uncommon; it's a firm grip that does not abrade overmuch. If the gunsmith could be traced, that gun could be worth much more than a used rebuilt GI gun, even as a collector piece. If that pistol was 'bubbaized' by Jimmy Clark or Austin Buehlert or Armand Swenson.... good gracious!

That pistol is in Missouri... depending on the date of manufacture, I might be able to import it into California... I'd spend $400 in a heartbeat on that pistol.

I have a friend who has an original Ruger Flat top 44 Magnum. He cut the barrel off to about five inches (remounted the sight and all) to make it handier as his daily carry gun.
Some collectors see that and have a reaction ranging from soiled undergarments to apoplexy.
He did it when he bought it, brand new! It was still a production gun at the time, and not a very expensive one at that.

 

[Pappy John]

I don't see it as bad at all.

Whoever had the work done got the gun that he wanted...and it was HIS. Most of the guns I own have some custom work to them...including a '43 Mauser that my father started the sporterizing process on. But since he brought that one home himself after his all expence paid tour of Africa, Sicily, and Europe circa '42-'45, I hope it's all right with everyone that he did what he wanted to with it.

My own Carbine would shock the sensibilities of some, but its what I wanted and its MINE dammit! The mechanicals are good, but the wood was horrible...HORRIBLE, so it now has a Ramline stock with enough length of pull for a six-foot tall person to actually shoot comfortably and a dot scope.

I won't even get started on my handgun "butchery", but they all work better for me now than when they were new, and they are all unmistakably my own. Just call me Bubba I guess.

 

[mnrivrat]

My first 1911 was purchased from my brother in law. At the time he was working for the sanitation dept and road the back of the garbage truck.

As he was watching the compactor arm pushing garbage he noticed something familiar and stopped the arm.
Unfortunately not before the slide was distroyed on a WWII vintage 1911 .
Apparently the GI who brought it home had just past away and the widow didn't like guns.
That one got a new slide also.

 

[cerberus]

Sad but true

What happens to many of our guns when we pass away. I for one would rather see my 1911s go into the trash they have my wifes kin get any of them.

 

[MaterDei]

No reserve guys!!!

Bid NOW or forever hold your peace!

 

[jimbo]

I can't get real excited about this.

During the Clinton years, the government scrapped about a half million Garands, M14s, 1903s, carbines and 1911s stored in surplus.


After that happened, I just can't get real excited about the occasional chromed Luger or Colt Vet bring back. Clinton's firearms massacre still makes me sick to my stomach. He was, still is, the embodiment of all that is evil. My only consolation is knowing that he will burn a long time in hell.

 

[Edward429451]

I don't see it as bad either. Very carryable and don't have to worry about ruining it's collectable status anymore...It'll still do what it was designed to do. At least they're not trying to get an unreasonable sum for it. Life's too short to put all the good stuff under glass. Drive that 57 Chevy!!



The stories it could tell...Call me Captain Insano but I'd feel good reworking an old Colt with history and pressing it into service. I bet a lot of stuff will come out from under the glass if shtf.

 

[Black Majik]

Very good condition? Haha... yeah rite.

Custom front and rear strap? Hell I can stick stucco on my guns and call it custom too. It looks like absolute hell.


It doesn't bother me too much that the gun was modified, everyone modifies their guns, but damn... that front/rearstrap is absolutely...*speechless*

 

[chaim]

I understand what people say about everything old and rare was once young (and usually not-so-rare). With some things it is not always so easy to know that it will be a piece of history (I don't really care about collector's value- I'm a history fanatic), however with some things there is no question.

With some standard catalogue item pistol or rifle it usually is "just" a pistol or rifle. If you mess with it, no big deal. Sure, if it only lasts a year or two before there are changes made a collector might not be happy with modificiations, but it is no loss to history.

However, some things are part of history.

There is no question that a gun that helped win (or lose depending upon the gun) WWI or WWII is a part of history and has historical value (note that I said historical, not collector's, value). Sure, in 1945, 1955, 1965, heck even now in 2004 they may be a dime a dozen (look on any gun dealer's rifle rack and if he/she carries used guns you will probably see about a dozen WWII rifles of various nationalities, sometimes a dozen of any one model). However, they are mechanical devices which wear out and everyone knows that this will not always be the case (note as well, I have no problem with the fact that people shoot them- fine if they wear out "naturally", it is something else to essentially destroy them). There will come a day, within many of our lifetimes, that these rifles and pistols will be extremely rare and museum pieces. I'd very much like for my grandchildren to be able to see an authentic example of the weapons of WWII that haven't been butchered.

Now, it is one thing to change a stock or do work on a gun when parts start wearing out and it will no longer be a functional gun without it, and even to do real modifications at that point (note, I mean major parts wearing out). However, "elective" modifications on a historically significant gun bothers me (again, I am a history fanatic).

That isn't to say that I don't think you have the right to do what you want with your own property. Also, please don't think that I'm judging anyone over this- you may value things that I don't value as much just as I value something's raw historical significance more than most people may. It is just that, if you buy a historically significant piece (or inherit one), I beg you to please respect its history and leave it as close to stock as possible and if you want a gun to "tweek" please buy a new one or a less significant used gun.

 

[jimbo]

chaim,

I have come full circle to your way of thinking.

I collect Mauser Lugers. Whenever someone asks on www.lugerforum.com whether or not he should shoot his "all-matching mint condition K-code Luger," (for example) I absolutely cringe. A cold sweat breaks out on my brow as I type "PLEASE DO THE WORLD'S MUSEUMS AND POSTERITY A FAVOR AND BUY A MISMATCHED SHOOTER". Because I know that if he shoots that rare, historical collectible, something is going to eventually break and it is going to be one less minty example the Luger collecting community will have to refer to.

Also, I used to be in favor of refinishing beat up old Lugers and Colts, Remington Rands, etc to new condition. It took me a while to appreciate the history that lead to that pooor condition. That a soldier's blood stripped that bluing from that trigger guard. Or stripped away by months of exposure to rain and snow on the eastern front. Now, I think it is just criminal to change the condition of old guns.

I've even come to appreciate those ugly bringh-back pimp guns that Vets had chromed and pearl-handled and then electropenciled their initials in the frame or toggle. But even those guns have a history that was the aftermath of grizzled Vets who paid their dues in Sicily, Normandy or Bastogne.

Yep, I've come along way and now I believe like you do. And if you're going to modify an old Luger or Colt, there are plenty of donors out there that have been poorly refinished long after the War ended, so all the above is a moot point. I can only hope more people will come to appreciate the historical significance of even the beat up old guns.