Why am I jonesing for a .25acp?

[clang]

I've got one .25 Auto - it is a Walther Model 9. This gun makes the Baby Browning look big.

 

[MCgunner]

I've not yet figured out why a .32NAA is superior to a .380 especially since it's chambered in the same gun. I'll take the .380, myself.

Well, I never had a problem with rim lock in the .25, never owned a .32, just hear about this malady from time to time. My cheap POS .25 ran great. Unlike .22LR, the .25 is MADE for this application and really does work best. Not only does it feed clean and stack clean in a magazine, but the center fire primer is more reliable in ignition. In my .22 LR mini revolver, if I don't change ammo once every week or two in the hot, sweaty summer, I'll get misfires. I am diligent about changing the rounds out. I don't carry it as a primary, just an also gun, just sayin'.

 

[christcorp]

I think the key is that neither a 25acp nor a 22lr should be used as a primary defense weapon. The smallest most reliable caliber should be at least a 32acp. Not saying that a 25acp or a 22lr can't protect you; they can. Just that they are better as being a back up gun than a primary.

 

[outerlimit]

I've not yet figured out why a .32NAA is superior to a .380 especially since it's chambered in the same gun.

It is the energy folks. Energy is all, and it trumps everything according to them.

 

[MCgunner]

Ask the people who support the .40 in the 9x19mm platform, I have no idea either!

I think it's more analogous to the .357 Sig vs the .40S&W and in that case, I can't see an advantage in the Sig, either. Only theory, but yeah, they say the bottle neck feeds more reliably. I can understand that reasoning, but I don't have a problem with my .380, 9x18, 9x19, or .45ACPs. Why fix what ain't broke?

I always figured the ".357" in the sig was a marketing tool. It seems to have worked in the case of Texas DPS. The .32NAA doesn't have that going for it.

 

[JR47]

Yes, I understand the 1200-1300 fps ratings of a 22LR are out of a rifle. However, even in a traditional 5-6" pistol, it's better than the 25acp. I'll keep the 22LR with stingers out of my Ruger Mark II before I own a 25acp. And, if you want, you can even get 60 grain subsonic 22LR Aguila sniper LRN. Out of a 4" barrel, the 22LR is better. In a 2-3" type gun, the 22LR and the 25acp are almost identical. If they're almost identical, I think I'll save my money and buy 500 rounds for the price of 1 box of 25acp. Makes for some great practicing.

Ok, however, the average .25 uses a sub 3" barrel. I'm also a little curious about your source of information on the actual velocities achieved through various length .22 barrels. Help us out here, and provide the source.

I have chronographed several .22 loads through my Ruger Mk. II, with a 6"+ barrel, and none have exceeded 800 fps when using high velocity ammunition.

As for the Aguila ammo, their homepage is under re-construction, so that was no help.

You are certainly welcome to stick a Ruger Mk. II in your pocket. I will imagine, though, that it's going to be less comfortable than a Beretta Model 21A, or a Beretta Model 950BS.

 

[christcorp]

I've already said that a 25acp or 22lr is worth no more than as a backup. Then, only if that's all you have. If you want to discuss the 25acp being a good "PRIMARY" caliber for self defense, then I will bow out of this conversation right now. I won't get into it. Anyone who thinks the 25acp or 22lr is a good "Primary" pistol caliber for self defense, has a position that I won't even discuss let alone debate.

But as a backup, yes, the 25acp can be convenient. But If we got into the 25acp and 22lr in the same size barrel pistol, they are going to be roughly equal. The 25acp definitely has the advantage of having a primer instead of a rimfire. I personally would never carry a 25acp as a backup. But in my house, I have no problem having a Ruger Mark II or a Dan Wesson revolver with 22LR stingers in them as a backup.

 

[amd6547]

There certain low-threat times when even my Browning 1910 380 or Polish P64 9mm mak are too big to carry...Yes, at that time, the 25 Beretta 21a becomes "primary"....and I am perfectly comfortable admitting that.

 

[HisSoldier]

Since this thread started I bought an Astra .25 ACP, and have been reloading for it.
I've been getting 1145 FPS out of 35 grain Gold Dots in my Astra with Bullseye and no loss of reliability. That was just an exercise for my mind, I typically load 50 grain FMJ at around 900 FPS. The gun is for fun, look at it as fun and all the discussions about stopping power are moot.

The reason the Astra is so fun is because it's so accurate for such a tiny gun. It's the best .25 I own for accuracy, well, I own a Budischowsky that may be as accurate but it's in new condition and I'm trying to decide whether or not to shoot it. The Budischowsky has even better sights than the Astra.

I probably have 10 .25's of various makes, few of them have decent sights.

 

[BushyGuy]

get a 9mm compact handgun , a .25 is only about 30 percent 1 shot stop effective while 9mm is over 90 percent 1 shot stop effective plus ammo is cheaper then .25,.32 and .380 and easier to find .

 

[MCgunner]

I get near 1250 fps out a NAA super companion with 2.0 grains B'eye and a 30 grain conical.

There certain low-threat times when even my Browning 1910 380 or Polish P64 9mm mak are too big to carry...Yes, at that time, the 25 Beretta 21a becomes "primary"....and I am perfectly comfortable admitting that.

I completely understand. I have a variety of sized guns for carry for the same reason. If I can, I'll tote a major caliber. If I HAVE to, I'll tote an NAA mini. I kinda like that super companion. I'm getting better shooting it, too. I can keep 'em on the head from 40 feet slow, aimed fire, not shabby. It's minute of eye socket up close 3 yards.

 

[JR47]

If you want to discuss the 25acp being a good "PRIMARY" caliber for self defense, then I will bow out of this conversation right now. I won't get into it. Anyone who thinks the 25acp or 22lr is a good "Primary" pistol caliber for self defense, has a position that I won't even discuss let alone debate.

I have no idea what prompted that comment. It beats not having a gun, and it makes for a fun plinker, but that's about it.

I'm still waiting for some reference that supports the velocity claims of a .22 load in a sub-three-inch barrel.

 

[christcorp]

Look JR, I understand your doubts. That's cool. But Al Gore did invent the internet. It's not that hard to look up some stuff. If you doubt what I say, then prove me wrong. It won't hurt my feelings. But for the sake of argument, here's a couple of decent tests done on various 22LR. Including the Stinger, out of a Beretta m21 with a 2.4" barrel. It has the stinger coming out in the 970-1000 fps range. I gave the benefit of the doubt to the 25acp and said that in a 2-3" barrel, the 22LR would be about equal. Truth be told, the 22LR is still a faster round. But the 25acp is a little heavier than the Stinger. Using the Aguia 60 grains out of a 5" barrel, the speeds are around 700-720. But that is a pretty heavy bullet. But it's about the same velocity as the 25acp.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs27.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/article3.htm

I have nothing against a 25acp pistol. As you said, it's better than nothing. But unless you found the gun in a junk yard or someone gave it to you for free, and you couldn't afford anything else, there's no reason for it to be your "PRIMARY" self defense weapon. And that's what I'm talking about. If you want to say it's a good backup gun in case... I go along with that. But not as a primary caliber. And my leading point was that a 22LR can/is about just as fast and a whole lot cheaper to shoot. So why have a 25acp. But again, I'm talking about a "PRIMARY" self defense weapon. Cost can't be the issue. There are plenty of larger caliber guns for the same or even cheaper price. Size? Well, someone, maybe you, said that there are times when a Polish P64 would be "too big" to carry. I find that extremely hard to believe. Even so, there are guns like the AMT backups, LCP, Seecamp, and plenty of others that are extremely small. And those are all 32acp and 380 which are much more suitable for self defense as a primary gun. Hope you don't mind if I let you find other sites on your own.

 

[stinger 327]

One may as well ask why someone joneses for ANY gun, regardless of cartridge: Because you want one!
.25's are addictive. They are simply fun to shoot, generally reliable, and there have been a ton of varieties made to choose from. I bought my first one for giggles, then found myself buying more of them (more giggles!).
.25acp ammo is not really expensive online. Sellier & Bellot, CCI Blazer, Aquila, etc usually run $11-$13 for a box of 50. Sure, if you buy Winchester .25 it IS expensive....so I don't buy .25's at Walmart or Gander Mountain. Sure, they are more than 9mm WWB, but not by much.
The Astra Cub (Colt Jr) is a great little gun! If you are interested in that design, I usually see the Astra for less than the Colt...same gun. I see Astras for $175-$250 at shows, the same gun marked Colt for $300-$450. I paid $120 for the .22 short version last year at a show. FIE, QFI, and Heritage offered some quite reliable .25's, mostly based on Tanfoglio GT25 or GT27 or Astra Cub designs. Their Titan model is inexpensive, reliable, and easy to work on, and easy to get parts for.
Of all my .25's, my favorite is the Beretta 950B. Tip-up barrel, reliable design, a fun shooter. I shoot it a lot in my basement with primer-fired .25 air gun pellets. I load H&N pellets into primered .25acp shells and they are great for basement shooting. Sort of a .25acp "Colibri".
Jack

..

..

The .25 ACP in Magsafe is more expensive and appears to be more damaging on a two by four. I was told though you are probably better off in this caliber with the FMJ for reliable feeding and most penetration with the hope of hitting a vital organ since this little caliber doesn't travel at a high enough velocity in HP to expand.

 

[stinger 327]

I've already said that a 25acp or 22lr is worth no more than as a backup. Then, only if that's all you have. If you want to discuss the 25acp being a good "PRIMARY" caliber for self defense, then I will bow out of this conversation right now. I won't get into it. Anyone who thinks the 25acp or 22lr is a good "Primary" pistol caliber for self defense, has a position that I won't even discuss let alone debate.

But as a backup, yes, the 25acp can be convenient. But If we got into the 25acp and 22lr in the same size barrel pistol, they are going to be roughly equal. The 25acp definitely has the advantage of having a primer instead of a rimfire. I personally would never carry a 25acp as a backup. But in my house, I have no problem having a Ruger Mark II or a Dan Wesson revolver with 22LR stingers in them as a backup.

The .22LR has a tendency to have more misfires and is not as reliable as the centerfire .25 ACP for what's it worth.

 

[stinger 327]

One may as well ask why someone joneses for ANY gun, regardless of cartridge: Because you want one!
.25's are addictive. They are simply fun to shoot, generally reliable, and there have been a ton of varieties made to choose from. I bought my first one for giggles, then found myself buying more of them (more giggles!).
.25acp ammo is not really expensive online. Sellier & Bellot, CCI Blazer, Aquila, etc usually run $11-$13 for a box of 50. Sure, if you buy Winchester .25 it IS expensive....so I don't buy .25's at Walmart or Gander Mountain. Sure, they are more than 9mm WWB, but not by much.
The Astra Cub (Colt Jr) is a great little gun! If you are interested in that design, I usually see the Astra for less than the Colt...same gun. I see Astras for $175-$250 at shows, the same gun marked Colt for $300-$450. I paid $120 for the .22 short version last year at a show. FIE, QFI, and Heritage offered some quite reliable .25's, mostly based on Tanfoglio GT25 or GT27 or Astra Cub designs. Their Titan model is inexpensive, reliable, and easy to work on, and easy to get parts for.
Of all my .25's, my favorite is the Beretta 950B. Tip-up barrel, reliable design, a fun shooter. I shoot it a lot in my basement with primer-fired .25 air gun pellets. I load H&N pellets into primered .25acp shells and they are great for basement shooting. Sort of a .25acp "Colibri".
Jack

..

..

Do you know anything about those Bauer .25 ACP pistols shiny silver in color with pearl handles? In 1974 they cost around $100. Today's price for an immaculate condition?
I also remember the cheap Raven .25 ACP that cost $49.95 and it was large in size for a .25 ACP pistol.

 

[Fleetwood_Captain]

I believe the purpose of the .357 SIG is to be a better feeding and more versitile alternative to the .38 Super. .38 super is Semi-Rimmed and only works well in a single-stack magazine. .357 SIG is rimless and can be double-stacked.

As far as .25 ACP being tactical, I think it's designed to be "scare tactical." If someone has to pull out a gun in self-defense, most crooks arn't going to take the time to try to analyze the caliber or magazine capacity. They see gun, they hear boom, they crap pants. Don't forget, animals are scared off by loud noises too.

Otherwise, their fun to take to the range and make great conversation pieces. I get a kick out of Jetfires and wouldn't mind getting a Raven at a price worth buying one. After all, the Raven 25 is one of the few guns with a "turn-in" value higher than the manufacturer MSRP.

 

[jackstinson]

Do you know anything about those Bauer .25 ACP pistols shiny silver in color with pearl handles? In 1974 they cost around $100. Today's price for an immaculate condition?
I also remember the cheap Raven .25 ACP that cost $49.95 and it was large in size for a .25 ACP pistol.

I paid $150 two years ago for a Bauer "Automatic" in unfired condition (at a gun shop). But the price was lowered a little because the original owner had engraved his girl's name on it...so I call this one "Shauna".

I own many pocket pistols in .25acp (also .22, .32acp, & .380acp). I'm not going to list them all. My favorite is my 1957 Beretta 950B in .25acp, but I tend to shoot all pretty of them much equally. I love 'em!
Raven's are not really as large as they seem in a photo and most are quite reliable. I prefer George's original Raven models over the Phoenix re-issue. This one is a George Jennings Raven Arms MP25;

Ballistics? Steve's pages has some good base-level comparison info
* .22 Long Rifle - http://stevespages.com/page8f22rf.html
* .25 acp - http://stevespages.com/page8f25acp.html
* .32 acp - http://stevespages.com/page8f32acp.html
Also, The NAA website has good real-life ballistics info out of their guns.
* http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html
Tons of real life info out there....some of it is even valid.

 

[christcorp]

Seems that the more I write, the more people think I am saying that people should use a 22LR as a self defense caliber. No, I'm not. I'm saying that "EXCEPT" for as a backup, the 25acp SHOULDN'T BE USED AS A PRIMARY WEAPON for self defense purposes. And the reason is because even a 22LR is equal or better to the performance of the 25acp. You don't have to rationalize with me that the 25acp isn't rimfire and therefor more reliable. LOOK..... THEY BOTH SUCK FOR SELF DEFENSE.

Do we really want to go with the "Something is better than nothing" attitude? I don't think so. Why? Because for the same physical size and cost, you can have other more practical calibers such as the 32acp and 380acp. Now, if you want to get into the backup use argument, we can. It's still hard to justify when other calibers are just as small of a gun and costs the same. But as a backup, it really doesn't matter. But as a primary weapon, there is no reason to use a 25acp as a primary caliber. Unless of course the gun was given to you for free and you can't afford to buy anything.

 

[JR47]

Look JR, I understand your doubts. That's cool. But Al Gore did invent the internet.

Understood. However, it ISN'T our responsibility to research YOUR claims. You made them, sir, back them up.

I'd also expect someone with that train of thought to have researched just who it was that put a Polish Mak in their pocket, as it wasn't me.

Neither of us has advocated either the .22, or the .25 ACP as a primary defense pistol caliber. In fact, I've stated that succinctly.

The .25 ACP produces 1000 fps out of the barrel of that Beretta 21, using Hornady XTP/JHP, and higher with Fiocchi ammo using the same bullet.

I shoot FMJ to play, and that's just about all I want to do with the little pistols. I keep some Fiocchi, Hornady, and Winchester JHP designs, just in case I should have to stand my ground against an illegal the size of a chipmunk .

 

[amd6547]

Man, some people get their undies in a bunch over the 25acp, yet nobody volunteers to take 10 rapid fired into their face at 5 feet.
It is a special purpose round, and I use it as such. I happened to get my Beretta 21a 25 for $125 from a private seller at a gun show with a spare mag, clip-on holster, rug, and box of winchester pellet nose 25. No tax, no paperwork. On the few occaisions I do carry it, the Beretta is the perfect choice.
Not a fan of pocket carry, even with the Beretta. Been carrying for about 30 years, and prefer IWB.
People should use what they feel is appropriate to their situation and requirements, and not get bent out of shape at other peoples choices.

 

[coosbaycreep]

I did some penetration tests not too long ago against 2x4s using a jennings J22 .22lr, an FIE titan .25acp, and keltec P32 .32acp.

I don't know the exact barrel lengths of the three, but they're close enough that it shouldn't make a difference.

here's the chronograph results:
-.22lr 36gr HP (remington golden bullet) =699fps, 39ft lbs
-.25acp 50gr FMJ remington =681fps, 52ft lbs
-.32acp winchester 71gr fmj=788fps, 98ft lbs

penetration:
-the 22lr and .25acp were almost indentical in penetration, going completely through one 2x4 and sticking into the beginning of the second
-the .32 had about twice the penetration, sticking half way between the second and third 2x4

I carry .32acp because my keltec is the smallest, lightest gun I trust, and it doesn't have a manual safety (which I like). I'd rather have more power, but I'll take my chances with a weaker round in order for the comfort of carrying a smaller/lighter gun.

.25acp IS better than .22lr when fired from a pocket pistol, and while neither caliber would be my first choice, they're better than nothing if it's all ya got.

BTW, I've always been fascinated by the tiny .25acp as well, which is why I bought one. It's not a cheap caliber to shoot, but it's a cool caliber, and they're fun to shoot.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

My brother's "Combat .25 Colt".

[/IMG]

 

[stinger 327]

My brother's "Combat .25 Colt".

[/IMG]

I think I saw one of these for sale for $900.

 

[stinger 327]

I've not yet figured out why a .32NAA is superior to a .380 especially since it's chambered in the same gun. I'll take the .380, myself.

Well, I never had a problem with rim lock in the .25, never owned a .32, just hear about this malady from time to time. My cheap POS .25 ran great. Unlike .22LR, the .25 is MADE for this application and really does work best. Not only does it feed clean and stack clean in a magazine, but the center fire primer is more reliable in ignition. In my .22 LR mini revolver, if I don't change ammo once every week or two in the hot, sweaty summer, I'll get misfires. I am diligent about changing the rounds out. I don't carry it as a primary, just an also gun, just sayin'.

In a Browning Buck Mark, and Ruger 10/22, I was getting alot of misfires with the range type ammo lead point. The CCI Stingers HP, Aguilar were all very reliable and kicked alot more than the standard .22 LR. The Aguilar is suppose to be the fastest of all .22 LR at 1,750 but I don't know which rifle that would be from let lone a small pistol.
I'm trying to find that New CCI Stinger Segmented HP but it seems to be sold out everywhere.