I want to get into mid - long range shooting sports. I have shot a few rifles, but nothing much. I was going to go .308 or higher in caliber, but still something that I can afford to practice with so no .338 or 50BMG unfortunately. I would like to spend around $2000 - $2500 for a rifle, not including optics. I am not sure whether I should be looking into semi autos or bolt action. I was thinking of semi auto because they are probably going to be illegal bad black guns soon, not to mention it would also be a good SHTF gun, but most long range shooters I see use bolt action...so which is best?
I want to get into long range shooting, should I go bolt action or semi auto?
- Thread starter JLStorm
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cslinger
Member
Paging Zach Smith, paging Zach Smith. 
I am so far from being educated on this subject but my personal opinion is a good bolt action is the way to go. As to what I leave that to the experts. Semi autos can be extrodinarily accurate but they usually cost quite a bit to be made so due to the fact that there is lots of stuff moving and vibrating etc. during a shot. Bolt actions only fire that one round and don't having any moving parts until you make them move which will likely be well after the shot has impacted. So as a rule a bolt action can be made more reliable with less money then a semi auto in my exp.
Seriously though you may want to PM Zach as he really does know his sh....uhh stuff on this subject and has trigger time with a great many fine rifles.
As an aside what exactly is mid to long range to you. I mean they shoot service rifle competitions with .223s out a good ways with the right ammo.
Chris
I am so far from being educated on this subject but my personal opinion is a good bolt action is the way to go. As to what I leave that to the experts. Semi autos can be extrodinarily accurate but they usually cost quite a bit to be made so due to the fact that there is lots of stuff moving and vibrating etc. during a shot. Bolt actions only fire that one round and don't having any moving parts until you make them move which will likely be well after the shot has impacted. So as a rule a bolt action can be made more reliable with less money then a semi auto in my exp.
Seriously though you may want to PM Zach as he really does know his sh....uhh stuff on this subject and has trigger time with a great many fine rifles.
As an aside what exactly is mid to long range to you. I mean they shoot service rifle competitions with .223s out a good ways with the right ammo.
Chris
cslinger
Member
Way outa my league. I would probably enjoy learning the discipline but right now 200 yards is pretty much my limit. So basically any advice I might have doesn't mean squat.
Like I said you may want to PM a few folks.
Zach Smith - very knowledgeable in this regard.
Bogie - Benchrest shooter kind of guy.
Those are two members who off the top of my head may be able to give you some real useful info.
Like I said you may want to PM a few folks.
Zach Smith - very knowledgeable in this regard.
Bogie - Benchrest shooter kind of guy.
Those are two members who off the top of my head may be able to give you some real useful info.
its out of my league too...but I have the money now (or soon) so I would rather spend it on something I can grow into rather than buying something based on my current skill level and then not having the money later to move up because by then it will have gone to bills or some other expense...Im sure you know how that works. I will see if Zak chimes in, if not I'll send him a PM, thanks
Hopefully Zak will chime in. I have used a bolt action up until now. It is an .308. It works well up till 800 meters. If I want to go further than that i should have an LM338, 6,5-284, 300 winmag or similar. But the years I have spent with an .308 I have learned a lot about trajectorys and other factors. -308 can be very accurate, but is not forgiving if you make the wrong call about the distance, and/or dont read the wind good enogh. My answer to the question is get a good bolt 308 to start with, at your price maybe an TRG-22 is within reach. Get some good optics.
Later on, when you feel comfortabel shooting at the limits of the .308, you can upgrade to an LM338, for longer distances ---->1500meters I surely want one. My current project is to accurise my FAL, so thet I can get faster hits at multipel targets at distances up to 800 meters. But, when I started long distance shooting 3-4 years ago, a semi auto was not necesary, I had much to learn form shooting with a bolt.
Hopefully an ban on semi autos will not be a reality!
warthog
Later on, when you feel comfortabel shooting at the limits of the .308, you can upgrade to an LM338, for longer distances ---->1500meters I surely want one. My current project is to accurise my FAL, so thet I can get faster hits at multipel targets at distances up to 800 meters. But, when I started long distance shooting 3-4 years ago, a semi auto was not necesary, I had much to learn form shooting with a bolt.
Hopefully an ban on semi autos will not be a reality!
warthog
10 ten years ago I enthusiastically would have said buy and use a bolt-action rifle. Given today's rifles, i.e. DPMS .260 Rem, go auto all the way! There are folk who are grouping .5 MOA with these heavy-barreled rifles.
FYI, gary@r&g has a NIB DPMS .308 heavy barreled for $900ish! These rifles sell for closer to $1,300.00 to $1,400.00! Buy it; enjoy it; win with it!!! Contact (by PM) gary@r&g about his DPMS, or do a search in fifles for sale section.
Doc2005
FYI, gary@r&g has a NIB DPMS .308 heavy barreled for $900ish! These rifles sell for closer to $1,300.00 to $1,400.00! Buy it; enjoy it; win with it!!! Contact (by PM) gary@r&g about his DPMS, or do a search in fifles for sale section.
Doc2005
Jim Watson
Member
The first thing to do is to find out where and what kind of mid- or long range shooting is done in your area.
A 200 yard benchrest rifle is not a 1000 yard benchrest rifle is not an NRA Long Range Match Rifle is not a medium or long range "tactical" rifle is not a ultra long range wannabe sniper rifle. Sure, there is some overlap and adaptability, but unless there are multiple opportunities for you to shoot different disciplines, it would be best to set up for what you can get to.
I shoot a little NRA F-T/R and can tell you that it is bolt actions to the right and bolt actions to the left. I have tried to make an AR into a Long Range rifle with some success, but the bolt is the smart way to go if you want to just hit the target instead of trying to outguess the politicians.
Some events are under time limits, as at
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=215951
where you will see bolts and autos in action.
But I think it would be best to be a good shot before taking on something like that. It would be tough to learn the basics humping cross country and shooting a few shots at unknown ranges. Conventional target shooting at known distances will let you learn how to use the gun.
Look in the THR Rifle Forum Reading Library, Zak has some articles on "practical long range" that are very informative.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208641
A 200 yard benchrest rifle is not a 1000 yard benchrest rifle is not an NRA Long Range Match Rifle is not a medium or long range "tactical" rifle is not a ultra long range wannabe sniper rifle. Sure, there is some overlap and adaptability, but unless there are multiple opportunities for you to shoot different disciplines, it would be best to set up for what you can get to.
I shoot a little NRA F-T/R and can tell you that it is bolt actions to the right and bolt actions to the left. I have tried to make an AR into a Long Range rifle with some success, but the bolt is the smart way to go if you want to just hit the target instead of trying to outguess the politicians.
Some events are under time limits, as at
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=215951
where you will see bolts and autos in action.
But I think it would be best to be a good shot before taking on something like that. It would be tough to learn the basics humping cross country and shooting a few shots at unknown ranges. Conventional target shooting at known distances will let you learn how to use the gun.
Look in the THR Rifle Forum Reading Library, Zak has some articles on "practical long range" that are very informative.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208641
Jim as far as shooting ranges I have a few options. there is a 100 - 300 yd range and a 100 - 500 yd range within about 40 minutes of my house. There is a 1000 yd range about 2.5 and one 4 hours away. I also travel nationally every week, so I can always fly to a location that has a range for competitions and its really no money out of my pocket to do so as hotel and flight are both covered.
It certainly would be easier to drive to the 500 yard range than the 1000 yard ranges, but a 2.5 hour drive isnt that bad either if I spend the whole day there. At any rate like I said its really nothing for me to make a stop off in new mexico or AZ or wherever for the weekend and go shooting at a range either. Its not that I have tons of money, its just that my company doesnt care where I book my return flights too as long as I am ready to travel again the next week.
So the short answer to your question would be there is are a few options within driving distance that have regular shoots of 500 - 1000 yards. I dont know of much past 1000 yards, but I havent looked much either.
It certainly would be easier to drive to the 500 yard range than the 1000 yard ranges, but a 2.5 hour drive isnt that bad either if I spend the whole day there. At any rate like I said its really nothing for me to make a stop off in new mexico or AZ or wherever for the weekend and go shooting at a range either. Its not that I have tons of money, its just that my company doesnt care where I book my return flights too as long as I am ready to travel again the next week.
So the short answer to your question would be there is are a few options within driving distance that have regular shoots of 500 - 1000 yards. I dont know of much past 1000 yards, but I havent looked much either.
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
Member
I'm obviously in the wrong line of work. In the wrong state. 
-Steve
-Steve
Jim Watson
Member
Wow, an embarrassment of opportunities and a willingness to travel for them.
OK, based on the little I have heard, read, seen, and done, I recommend
A .308 bolt action with as long a barrel as available.
Combination rail that will accept both peep sight and scope; front globe sight base.
That will get you into NRA Long Range in the any rifle-iron sight, any rifle-any sight, and Palma events; plus F-T/R shooting off a bipod instead of sling, coat, and glove. Ranges generally the longest available at the site, 1000 yards where possible. Palma at 800, 900, 1000 iron sight. Discussions at
http://www.long-range.com/forums/
Outside NRA it will get you into "practical-tactial" shooting at ranges as long as you can estimate for sight settings. See Zak's reports. Also, USPSA/IPSC is doing some MOR (Manually Operated Rifle) shooting, a lot of which falls into that category, only faster.
The Brits shoot .308 at 1200 yards but that is very demanding on gun, ammo, and user. In the USA that is getting into monster magnum territory, about which I know little except what I read. The .338 Lapua with a 16.2 gram bullet at 905 mps (250 gr 2968 fps) is a baseline of the breed. If you are target shooting at 1200 yards, that big bullet will be blown 41 inches by a 5 mph crosswind .
If you are "sniping" with one of those and a zero at 1000 yards, you will be about ten inches high and low, respectively, at 975 and 1025 yards.
The main component of Long Range shooting, given an accurate rifle and decent technique, is wind judgement. If at unknown distances, add in range determination.
An NRA Long Range match is shot on paper targets which are pulled and marked for hit location and score every shot. You know what you are doing at all times and can correct for wind, light, ammo, and other variables.
Other shoots may be conducted on steel targets which a spotter can see swing or bullet splash for hits.
Solitary shooting at ranges beyond 200-300 yards is difficult, it is hard to tell what you are doing. I have shot on a steel gong at 600 yards and can hear the bullet hit, and then look for the bullet splash mark through rifle scope or spotting scope. But if I miss, where was I off?
I find it enough of a challenge to shoot F-T/R with .308 or .223 off a bipod at 600 to 1000 yards. The other stuff is more demanding.
OK, based on the little I have heard, read, seen, and done, I recommend
A .308 bolt action with as long a barrel as available.
Combination rail that will accept both peep sight and scope; front globe sight base.
That will get you into NRA Long Range in the any rifle-iron sight, any rifle-any sight, and Palma events; plus F-T/R shooting off a bipod instead of sling, coat, and glove. Ranges generally the longest available at the site, 1000 yards where possible. Palma at 800, 900, 1000 iron sight. Discussions at
http://www.long-range.com/forums/
Outside NRA it will get you into "practical-tactial" shooting at ranges as long as you can estimate for sight settings. See Zak's reports. Also, USPSA/IPSC is doing some MOR (Manually Operated Rifle) shooting, a lot of which falls into that category, only faster.
The Brits shoot .308 at 1200 yards but that is very demanding on gun, ammo, and user. In the USA that is getting into monster magnum territory, about which I know little except what I read. The .338 Lapua with a 16.2 gram bullet at 905 mps (250 gr 2968 fps) is a baseline of the breed. If you are target shooting at 1200 yards, that big bullet will be blown 41 inches by a 5 mph crosswind .
If you are "sniping" with one of those and a zero at 1000 yards, you will be about ten inches high and low, respectively, at 975 and 1025 yards.
The main component of Long Range shooting, given an accurate rifle and decent technique, is wind judgement. If at unknown distances, add in range determination.
An NRA Long Range match is shot on paper targets which are pulled and marked for hit location and score every shot. You know what you are doing at all times and can correct for wind, light, ammo, and other variables.
Other shoots may be conducted on steel targets which a spotter can see swing or bullet splash for hits.
Solitary shooting at ranges beyond 200-300 yards is difficult, it is hard to tell what you are doing. I have shot on a steel gong at 600 yards and can hear the bullet hit, and then look for the bullet splash mark through rifle scope or spotting scope. But if I miss, where was I off?
I find it enough of a challenge to shoot F-T/R with .308 or .223 off a bipod at 600 to 1000 yards. The other stuff is more demanding.
Zak Smith
Member
Hi,
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART II: OPTICS
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART III: SHOOTING
Unless you want to shoot Service Rifle (NRA High Power), I strongly recommend getting a bolt action.
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART II: OPTICS
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART III: SHOOTING
Unless you want to shoot Service Rifle (NRA High Power), I strongly recommend getting a bolt action.
You really need to define your shooting desires a little better to determine caliber and platform. Zak Smith's reads are very good and will go along way toward giving you guidence.
If you are looking for something that has the potential to be used in a SHTF situation, with a desire for followup shots, then a Semi-auto is the easy choice. If accuracy and paper/steel punching from a bench, then a bolt will give you cheaper satisfaction for the same amount of accuracy.
Good luck and happy shooting
If you are looking for something that has the potential to be used in a SHTF situation, with a desire for followup shots, then a Semi-auto is the easy choice. If accuracy and paper/steel punching from a bench, then a bolt will give you cheaper satisfaction for the same amount of accuracy.
Good luck and happy shooting
jonsidneyb
Member
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2006
- Messages
- 343
The reason they are asking usage is that this type of shooting has some variables to it.
For trajectory and bullet drift at lets say 300 meters velocity is what you want, when the range becomes 1000 meters high BC values come into play at a small loss in starting velocity.
The different classes of shooting have different dominant players in the gun cartridge combo. Class F shooting is a bit different that 1000 yard benchrest.
There are a variety of cartridges for different reasons. 6mm Tubbs is one that seems to not do anything that another cartridge couldn't do but it does it efficently and accurately. There is alot of trade offs too such as the neck and if you will be shooting VLD's out of the gun or not.
How accurate is accurate? If you want to someday set a world record *I will never be able to* You will not be doing it with an autoloader.
At the price that you want to spend for a gun you can have one built. If you look at ones that win in contest shooting you would think you would find some consistency but it is not as consistent as you would think on barrels. Some companies barrels seem to be slightly better at one class of shooting then the others.
You can get an action blue printed or you can use a custom action. If it will not be magazine fed you get used some cartridges with extreme shoulder angles that have little brass flow or if you want to use a magazine you will have a bit harder time with some of the shoulder angles.
You actually asked a quite complicated question so that is why you will not get a simple answer.
Accuracy by the way it is measured means that many guns can be world record holders. One would think that the gun cartridge combination that sets world records at 1000 yards would be the same one that could do it at 200 yards but it cant.
We also have to define long range? is 600 yards long range..I think it is. 1000 yards to me is very long range.
In sporter weight guns a great semi auto can be as accurate as a good bolt gun. but a great semi auto is not going to be as accurate at 1000 yards as a great bolt gun. In spite of this the ARs can be made into very accurate guns but the 5.56 cartridge does not have what it takes to be user friendly at super long range. The low BC bullets are not that low and they are too long for the magazine.
The M1-As have a reputation for accuracy. At the 1000 yard mark if that is what you are calling long range will be out of its league in a F-class or 1000yd BR contest.
For trajectory and bullet drift at lets say 300 meters velocity is what you want, when the range becomes 1000 meters high BC values come into play at a small loss in starting velocity.
The different classes of shooting have different dominant players in the gun cartridge combo. Class F shooting is a bit different that 1000 yard benchrest.
There are a variety of cartridges for different reasons. 6mm Tubbs is one that seems to not do anything that another cartridge couldn't do but it does it efficently and accurately. There is alot of trade offs too such as the neck and if you will be shooting VLD's out of the gun or not.
How accurate is accurate? If you want to someday set a world record *I will never be able to* You will not be doing it with an autoloader.
At the price that you want to spend for a gun you can have one built. If you look at ones that win in contest shooting you would think you would find some consistency but it is not as consistent as you would think on barrels. Some companies barrels seem to be slightly better at one class of shooting then the others.
You can get an action blue printed or you can use a custom action. If it will not be magazine fed you get used some cartridges with extreme shoulder angles that have little brass flow or if you want to use a magazine you will have a bit harder time with some of the shoulder angles.
You actually asked a quite complicated question so that is why you will not get a simple answer.
Accuracy by the way it is measured means that many guns can be world record holders. One would think that the gun cartridge combination that sets world records at 1000 yards would be the same one that could do it at 200 yards but it cant.
We also have to define long range? is 600 yards long range..I think it is. 1000 yards to me is very long range.
In sporter weight guns a great semi auto can be as accurate as a good bolt gun. but a great semi auto is not going to be as accurate at 1000 yards as a great bolt gun. In spite of this the ARs can be made into very accurate guns but the 5.56 cartridge does not have what it takes to be user friendly at super long range. The low BC bullets are not that low and they are too long for the magazine.
The M1-As have a reputation for accuracy. At the 1000 yard mark if that is what you are calling long range will be out of its league in a F-class or 1000yd BR contest.
I asked a few questions over at sniperhide and I spoke to Zak. First off, to clarify my requirements my idea of long range is 600 -1000 yards, and this will be used for punching paper and eventually some entry level - mid level competition shooting, and hopefully hunting on occasion. I wanted to lean more towards a tactical rifle rather than a BR rifle as I have heard that BR rifles really dont operate as well when the least bit dirty or in the elements that I would encounter in some competition and obviously hunting.
The majority of answers at sniperhide regarding caliber were "if you have to ask, then you need to start with a .308", and Zak also repeatedly stated that I would have much more luck with a 308 since I dont reload right now.
As far as rifles, since I am starting with a 308 and hope to build up to a higher caliber within a few years I decided that it might be prudent to start with something that is less costly, and after a lot of research I am leaning towards a Remington 700 5R, there is a dealer near me that has a number of 2007 models for sale. I do like the idea of a semi-auto rifle, but since I cant hunt with it in PA, and they seem much less favored by most of the distance shooters I have spoken with I think I will probably stay away from them for this application.
Does anyone see any flaws in my logic or have any additional thoughts???
The majority of answers at sniperhide regarding caliber were "if you have to ask, then you need to start with a .308", and Zak also repeatedly stated that I would have much more luck with a 308 since I dont reload right now.
As far as rifles, since I am starting with a 308 and hope to build up to a higher caliber within a few years I decided that it might be prudent to start with something that is less costly, and after a lot of research I am leaning towards a Remington 700 5R, there is a dealer near me that has a number of 2007 models for sale. I do like the idea of a semi-auto rifle, but since I cant hunt with it in PA, and they seem much less favored by most of the distance shooters I have spoken with I think I will probably stay away from them for this application.
Does anyone see any flaws in my logic or have any additional thoughts???
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